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PAWS- Your Experience Please!

Old 03-26-2018, 06:32 AM
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PAWS- Your Experience Please!

Hi all, i'm experiencing what i hope is the result of PAWS. I quit drinking towards the beginning of Dec 2017. When i did, i had all kinds of weird physical oddities (all of which were cleared by my doc and Neurologist). In the past five months i've relapsed three times.

While most of the physical symptoms have subsided, my mental state has been a wreck. The worst of those symptoms is derealization/depersonalization. Along with that, i also have terrible bouts of anxiety, obsessive thoughts, and hypochondria. At times i really feel like i'm going crazy. I'm currently seeking mental health treatment and they have me on an SSRI, but they don't seem to know much about PAWS.

Can relapse start the brain healing process all over again? Have any of you experienced this condition and how long did it take for you to heal from the mental side effects?

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:31 AM
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Hello Tommy. "PAWS" is mostly just a catch-all term for a wide range of symptoms common to those in recovery. It is not a diagnosable condition from either a physical or mental health standpoint, that's why your counselor/therapist probably doesn't know much about it.

It is definitely common to feel like you do in early recovery though, I dealt with all kinds of crazy stuff including anxiety, panic, etc for well over a year before I finally got a handle on it. I think it's great that you are seeing someone - are you working on any therapy our counseling in addiction to the SSRI?
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy0311 View Post
Hi all, i'm experiencing what i hope is the result of PAWS. I quit drinking towards the beginning of Dec 2017. When i did, i had all kinds of weird physical oddities (all of which were cleared by my doc and Neurologist). In the past five months i've relapsed three times.

While most of the physical symptoms have subsided, my mental state has been a wreck. The worst of those symptoms is derealization/depersonalization. Along with that, i also have terrible bouts of anxiety, obsessive thoughts, and hypochondria. At times i really feel like i'm going crazy. I'm currently seeking mental health treatment and they have me on an SSRI, but they don't seem to know much about PAWS.

Can relapse start the brain healing process all over again? Have any of you experienced this condition and how long did it take for you to heal from the mental side effects?

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
Thanks you for this thought provoking, introspective post.

I assume by PAWS you are using an acronym for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. Epictetus the Greek slave and philosopher said, "No man is truly free until he understands himself."

In my view, the main navigational tools in life are values and purpose. People overcome addictions based on purpose-based motivation (based on values) -- they better themselves when they recognize how their habits, violate who they were, what they want to be, where they want to go in life. Emotions are the primary drivers of our behavior. All addictions, serve an emotional purpose. Addictions are not just substance abuses (drugs, alcohol), but also behaviors. You can’t get addicted to a substance or behavior that doesn’t do something for you. Keep thinking and praying. When your values trump your addiction, you may find PAWS a thing of the past.
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Old 03-26-2018, 08:22 AM
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If you've relapsed three times in five month, what you may be suffering from is plain, ole withdrawals. Each relapse is setting the brain back to zero, recovery wise.

You could also be seeing mental issues that you covered up with alcohol.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy0311 View Post
In the past five months i've relapsed three times.

Can relapse start the brain healing process all over again? .
Thought this might warrant additional response. Yes, drinking can definitely re-start the healing process. In some cases each subsequent cycle of drinking/quitting can make it even worse. It's known as "kindling". I would say that you are likely as far along in the process as whenever your last drinking episode took place - how long ago was that?
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:21 AM
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Thank you all!

Scott, i'm going to therapy in addition to the SSRI's. The tough part for me is the therapists I've seen don't seem to take anxiety spectrum disorders very seriously. I suppose that should give me some reassurance, but dealing with depersonalization/derealization makes it seems as though i'm loosing it. My last relapse was just under a month ago. I drank pretty heavy for two days.

CRRHCC, good insight thank you. I agree with your prospective, but reaching that state of enlightenment seems exceedingly difficult with a substance-induced brain imbalance. I'm hoping through sustained sobriety, i will get there.

Dogonecarl, Thank you. I hope so. I hope that the last relapse i had was just that; my last relapse. I'm hoping that sobriety will heal my brain in time. This bout of mental instability may just be the kick in the pants i needed to quit that crap once and for all. I just hope it isn't permanent
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Old 03-26-2018, 02:00 PM
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I had never heard of PAWS until I joined this site 5+ years ago. I have still rarely heard of it other than online forums despite work in healthcare and spending sometime volunteering in alcohol services. I do think it's worth pointing out...while some find it a useful way of understanding symptoms...there is very little evidence for PAWS as a medical phenomenon and it's generally understood to be a concept driven by ex-alcohol abusers, with little recognition by the medical community.

I had many symptoms to get to grips with when I stopped drinking. Stopping g and staying stopped wasn't easy. Some were probably already there and masked by drink...some were probably residual damage caused by years of heavy drinking. They did mostly resolve in time.

I guess for me personally it helped to understand my problems as a consequence of my heavy drinking as opposed to prolonged withdrawal, or as a consequence of stopping drinking. Subtle difference but it seems important to me.

And as Scott says severity of withdrawal symptoms get worse over time. The consequences always get worse.

Hope you get some help with your own difficulties

P
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:39 PM
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I agree with the other posters, PAWS doesn't exist. After about 4 days alcohol withdrawal is done, and now you are faced with the scariest part, life without booze.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:04 PM
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Sounds to me like plain old anxiety.
Horrible to experience.
But you can get through it and it is quite often easily managed with medication and/or therapy.

I am very happy in my life right now.
But it took a long time for me to understand that my life after my drinking career must be very different.
And I don't just mean being around alcohol- that's easy enough.
But I just like different things now.
That took time to realise and accept.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Forward12 View Post
I agree with the other posters, PAWS doesn't exist. After about 4 days alcohol withdrawal is done, and now you are faced with the scariest part, life without booze.
I have no wish to start a "Is PAWS real?" debate, but this is simply beyond the pale.

It might be an idea to avoid making sweeping categorical statements that invalidate other people's experiences and betray "contempt before investigation" on your part.

With the benefit of 5 years' hindsight I can certainly vouch for the existence of a peculiar and debilitating set of symptoms -- which can be conveniently grouped under the heading of PAWS -- that had nothing to do with adapting to a sober life and everything to do with whacked-out neurology.

Just because the syndrome isn't yet well recognized or understood by the mainstream medical establishment (which has enough trouble understanding alcoholism itself, thank you very much, never mind PAWS) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I find things go better when I stick to sharing my own experience and don't make judgments about matters I don't fully understand.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Andante View Post

It might be an idea to avoid making sweeping categorical statements that invalidate other people's experiences and betray "contempt before investigation" on your part.

With the benefit of 5 years' hindsight I can certainly vouch for the existence of a peculiar and debilitating set of symptoms -- which can be conveniently grouped under the heading of PAWS -- that had nothing to do with adapting to a sober life and everything to do with whacked-out neurology.

Just because the syndrome isn't yet well recognized or understood by the mainstream medical establishment (which has enough trouble understanding alcoholism itself, thank you very much, never mind PAWS) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This is so true, both now and historically. . .
I also have had such symptoms, as have many, many others.

As to it not being "recognized" by the medical community,
as a researcher I have noted that unless something looks like
it will bring in great profit or prestige, it may never get much attention or funding.

Given the stigma of alcoholism, and how varied and longitudinal symptoms can be,
I don't expect to see much action anytime soon.

That does not invalidate the real experience of those who have lived it.
Not everything needs a rubber stamp to be real.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Forward12 View Post
I agree with the other posters, PAWS doesn't exist. After about 4 days alcohol withdrawal is done, and now you are faced with the scariest part, life without booze.
To be clear, I am not suggesting that PAWS does not exist. I am merely suggesting that it is not a Diagnosable condition. I think it is true that those in recover from alcohol or other drugs likely do face some long term challenges that others that never used/abused do not face.

My main point in the matter is that we shouldn't use "PAWS" as a reason to sit back and do nothing about what ails us. If we are experiencing depression, we should seek help to treat depression. If we are experiencing anxiety, we should seek help for our anxiety. If we are experiencing gastrointestinal issues we should see a GI doctor. And so on and so forth.....

Whether the symptoms are caused by PAWS or not, there is a solution to most of them.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI View Post
To be clear, I am not suggesting that PAWS does not exist. I am merely suggesting that it is not a Diagnosable condition. I think it is true that those in recover from alcohol or other drugs likely do face some long term challenges that others that never used/abused do not face.

My main point in the matter is that we shouldn't use "PAWS" as a reason to sit back and do nothing about what ails us. If we are experiencing depression, we should seek help to treat depression. If we are experiencing anxiety, we should seek help for our anxiety. If we are experiencing gastrointestinal issues we should see a GI doctor. And so on and so forth.....

Whether the symptoms are caused by PAWS or not, there is a solution to most of them.
PAWS is a strange, and often scary part of living life, outside of the cloud of alcoholism.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:34 AM
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Anything post-drinking can be attributed to PAWS: depression, brain fog, anxiety, stress, worry, etc. It may exist, but chalking something up to PAWS and not seeking the appropriate treatment would be a disservice.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI View Post
To be clear, I am not suggesting that PAWS does not exist. I am merely suggesting that it is not a Diagnosable condition. I think it is true that those in recover from alcohol or other drugs likely do face some long term challenges that others that never used/abused do not face.

My main point in the matter is that we shouldn't use "PAWS" as a reason to sit back and do nothing about what ails us. If we are experiencing depression, we should seek help to treat depression. If we are experiencing anxiety, we should seek help for our anxiety. If we are experiencing gastrointestinal issues we should see a GI doctor. And so on and so forth.....

Whether the symptoms are caused by PAWS or not, there is a solution to most of them.
Your point about using PAWS as an excuse to avoid confronting the challenges of recovery is well taken.

However, my point is that there are a number of peculiar symptoms commonly experienced in post-acute withdrawal that can't easily be categorized or treated conventionally. Because of this gap in recognition by the medical community, and because of people who insist that PAWS is a figment of a hypochondriac imagination, sufferers are left to conclude that they must be losing their minds.

When I was experiencing a cornucopia of bizarre symptoms months and even years into sobriety, I can't tell you what a relief it was to happen onto an article that described almost exactly those symptoms and explained them as lingering neurological artifacts of years of alcohol abuse -- PAWS. With this explanation in hand, I was able to concentrate on aspects of my recovery that I could control and take action to minimize the effect on my well-being of those I couldn't, feeling at least a little more secure in the knowledge that these symptoms had a logical explanation and weren't signifying some kind of insidious progressive dementia.

From reading here on SR over the years, I have found comfort in learning that I'm far from the only person to have had this experience. I've also found frustration in encountering closed-minded types who insist that if a condition hasn't already been assigned its own pigeonhole and prescribed treatment by the established scientific community, it can't exist.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:47 AM
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Meanwhile, back to the OP with apologies for straying off-topic:

Yes, drinking again in any amount sets any progress you have made in re-wiring your wonky brain back to square one -- or even worse.

There's no specific timeline for getting over some of the symptoms which may be attributable to PAWS. The only currently available cure, beyond common-sense measures such as healthy diet and exercise as well as constructive work on your recovery -- is sober time.

The thing about "anxiety" is that it has a pretty vague definition. If any of what you're experiencing as anxiety is attributable to PAWS, a lot of that should sort itself out over time.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tommy0311 View Post
Hi all, i'm experiencing what i hope is the result of PAWS. I quit drinking towards the beginning of Dec 2017. When i did, i had all kinds of weird physical oddities (all of which were cleared by my doc and Neurologist). In the past five months i've relapsed three times.

While most of the physical symptoms have subsided, my mental state has been a wreck. The worst of those symptoms is derealization/depersonalization. Along with that, i also have terrible bouts of anxiety, obsessive thoughts, and hypochondria. At times i really feel like i'm going crazy. I'm currently seeking mental health treatment and they have me on an SSRI, but they don't seem to know much about PAWS.

Can relapse start the brain healing process all over again? Have any of you experienced this condition and how long did it take for you to heal from the mental side effects?

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.
Bearing in mind that PAWS had not been invented when I recovered, I could relate to what you describe as what happened to me when I tried to stay sober without doing anything to treat my alcholism. I lasted several months but was completely miserable at the end of it, couldn't get out of bed, was living, as the nurse described in his report "in absolute squalor"

I ended up going back to my old solution, alcohol. When I had been beaten up a bit more, I went to AA, and those idiots told me I had been a dry drunk, i.e suffering the normal consequences of untreated alcoholism. Being fairly well stupified my self by this time I chose to accept what they said, and follow some suggestions they made.

That resulted in me making a full recovery and I did not have any of the after effects you are describing. The solution to the whole problem was much simpler than I thought it would be, and I can't understand why I resisted for so long.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:07 AM
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Well. PAWs seemed real enough to me I'm afraid.

This article really helped me a lot. https://digital-dharma.net/post-acut...r-immediately/
Before I read it I really thought I was going insane. It gave me the push I needed to find the willingness to actually do some of the things that had been suggested to me. And when I did those things I did start to feel MUCH better.

The article is not saying PAWs excuses us from responsibility for working on our recovery. It actually makes some very pertinent suggestions as to what that work might look like.

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Old 03-28-2018, 05:55 PM
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Agree with BB above.

And let me say this: Had I not stumbled across some PAWS information, and allowed myself to relax and give the healing the time it needed, I very well might have relapsed, because I wouldn't have had hope. I'm only 10 months in but hope is proving to be a wise way to go-- I'm feeling better every day. Thankfully.

In other words, for me, knowing about PAWS was not a reason to sit back and do nothing. Indeed, it served the opposite purpose--there was the hope, of course, but also logic and explanation for how crappy I felt. After all those years of abusing alcohol, it seemed to make sense that my body needed to regulate itself, and that it would take quite some time and quite a few wonky symptoms to feel better.

So instead of holding me back, knowing about PAWS carried me through.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:15 AM
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I echo the above response about the reality of PAWS.

Interestingly (or not ), I didn't even know what PAWS was until I was well past it! I stumbled across a thread about it, early on, but, didn't read it because I didn't think I was experiencing withdrawal, therefore it didn't apply to me.

Once I was past my first year and most of the cognitive and memory issues (major), anxiety (particularly health anxiety), depression (which I did get treatment for), racy heart, etc, etc, etc, had passed, then I read about PAWS and was astounded that I was ticking every box!

I am firmly in the camp that it exists.

Editing to add that when I "play the tape forward", I play it all the way forward through my first year. I NEVER want to go through that again!
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