Steely

So good to see you here kevlar and Poppy.

I so get it Kevlar.

There is a Today, a Wednesday a Thursday, etc., but there is no tomorrow because it hasn't happened yet. How can I commit to the unknown, anything could happen and I could change my mind irrespective of having made a grand plan. I have no intention, but it could happen. Thete must be plenty of grand planners that have relapsed and sometimes think that if the grand plan has become cemented, why the need to return to SR?

I want forever sobriety and that's for sure, so I try to have two bob each way and think that a single day is forever in some philosophers handbook.

I think too Kevlar that the stuff we have been sharing can be very confusing and daunting. Hard work. By keeping it in the day, the now, we are looking toward tomorrow. Hope the Universe holds up for the big day

Steely

I think the reason it is easy to not eat nuts if we are allergic is because there is no reward in the nuts. Nuts don't get me out of it.

joey112

But the price of a couple of hours buzz is so high. Why not say, no, that is too high a price and dismiss it? Then look for other ways to lose yourself for a couple of hours, a healthier more productive way?

Wholesome

The reason for saying and I will never change my mind in AVRT is that the beast has no sense of time so that voice will use time against you with thoughts of, well what about on x day or y situation, so when you say never change my mind that Ahole voice often falls silent. But of course it's always right now so it's the same as saying I never drink now and I will never change my mind. It's mindfulness and CBT.

But to each their own. Do what works for you!

Gottalife

This is a very important statement. In AA we don't ask anyone to promise anything, or to make projections about the future. What we look at is desire - "I want", not what I promise to do, or what I decide to do. A similar statement sums it up in the big book. "If you want (there's that desire again) what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps".

Bob said if you want to stop for good and want some help, we have a solution for you.

So that's the question. Do you want to stop for good, no more misery? Or do you feel, like the previous poster, that there might still be some reward left in drinking?

kevlarsjal

Some really intresting posts here, thanks! Very insightful. For now I think I came to the conclusion that it's just different philosophical approaches to sobriety and maybe life in general.

Dee, I think that's my problem right now, I don't fully trust myself yet. I've been sabotaging myself for years, making myself feel miserable on purpose and it's still a very new chapter for me to learn to acccept, like and trust myself.

Maybe that'll come over time and then I feel like I can honestly say that I "know" that I will never change my mind about it. Although the analytical part in me just frowns whenever I make statements about the future cause the future is unknown to all of us.


Gottalife: I did want to end the misery I found myself in and I still do. That's why I didn't drink for the last 5 months and that's why I won't drink today. And that's all I feel comfortable comitting to at this point. I'm pretty sure I will still think the same way about it tomorrow, next month and hopefully forever but that's just me making predictions about the future.
I'm not sure if you meant me with the previous poster who still sees a reward in drinking. I don't see any reward in it, I see it as self destruction. But from the past I know that I have a strong tendency to behave that way.


Joey112: I definitely decided that alcohol is no longer an option for anything. It's off the table. But then I don't know if I ever change my point of view on this. But I didn't give this decision an expiry date either.
Not missing the buzz much, wasn't what I drank for. I love being a bit more clear headed now and not "having to drink" in order to function. In the end I only drank to not get all panicky, shaky and weird.


Zenchaser: Your last post made me think a lot. I know I won't drink today, no matter what. And I don't really fantasise about drinking when on holiday or any specific situation. So I think I didn't leave any back doors open in that way. I think at this point, there's only two scenarios in my head about future me drinking/relapsing. One is me forgetting about my addiction after many many years and then thinking I could drink normally again (which I don't do know but I heard about this happening to others) or me giving up on life and everything, drinking my self to death in a purely self destructive way (which I hope I will never do but am afraid of). I love what your avatar says btw!


Hi there Steely! yes you nailed it "I have no intention but it could happen". Too much worrying maybe? Probably just the usual and general fear of the future and not being able to fully trust ourselves, thinking we will do something wrong, ******* it up. Lots of work left to do, but we're getting there. For now I'll stick to the "today", living in the presence as much as I can. And hopefully soon I will have a brighter, less anxious and more positive outlook on the future. I think I can already see the sun coming up on the horizon sometimes.

ScottFromWI

You've definitely got some "paralysis by analysis" going on there Kevlar ;-) I had the same problem, both in dealing with my addiction as well as dealing with my anxiety. I kept seeking a tangible/finite solution - a book, a technique, an exercise, maybe even a pill that could FIX me and make the problem go away forever. What I learned, and what i'm still learning is that I have to find a balance where I can simply accept some things just ARE.

For example, am an alcoholic and that's OK...and i don't have to worry about what happens 10 years or even 10 days from now...if I just accept that today I'm an alcoholic that's good enough for me. There are plenty of things I can do to better myself from a physical and mental standpoint today....and that's what matters to me.

Algorithm

kevlarsjal,

I realize this is not necessarily an AVRT thread, but the simple logic of AVRT may nevertheless be useful here, since everyone has overlooked the obvious, while you go around in circles.

"I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind" simply provides a crystal clear background against which your Addictive Voice may stand out for recognition. Let me explain.

Any thinking or feeling that contradicts "I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind" in any way, shape, or form, is simply the voice of your addiction. AVRT swats down 'relapse anxiety' as a phony inner racket of the Beast.

Relapse anxiety, or fears about 'not knowing the future', etc, is the Addictive Voice, simply because this kind of thinking points to more drinking. It is AV, as surely as "let's get a drink" is AV.

We may not know what we will do in the future, but contrary to the naysayers, we certainly can know what we won't do.

Set your confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt is your Addictive Voice -- the same one that says "oh wouldn't a glass of wine be nice now".

Hope this helps.

Steely

I'm thinking that we are all on the same page here, and that none of us ever want to drink again. And from where I'm sitting I won't drink for the rest of my life, but anything can happen in this old world. And now it's silly pedantics around a life threatening foe. Sorta shames me a bit.

I don't want to drink, don't expect to drink, won't drink, the thought of it sends chills, but still I do not know what the morrow might bring. And it's all alright.

The making of a grand plan is good, but does not come with a guarantee. Sitting in a mindful day is good enough for me, not just in terms of alcohol, but in the legit living of my life in general.

I agree with you kevlarsjal. These are early days and our uncertainty and mistrust of ourselves and others make these times really rocky, but we're getting there, and the sun came up as expected, but it mightn't have given how close that star is to that black hole .

I think you can say, "I'll never drink again", but how do you KNOW? You can't. This does not make me anxious or nervous, just a statement of fact...anything can happen. And that's OK too, and doesn't mean I want to drink.

Gottalife I (honestly) do not think that alcohol holds any reward, quite the opposite. I use it to (metaphorically) self destruct because of the way that I feel..the guilt, the shame, the fear the wonky self, and don't want to be like that anymore, so I guess at this point in my recovery I'll stick with whatever works and remain mindful. That should get me home.

When I tried to explain the difference between nuts and alcohol I was simply trying to say that nuts are not a psychotropic. They do not change my mental state, so relatively easy to drop nuts.

So, I'm just going to bat on with good old today, because tomorrow hasn't arrived. It's an unknown, a complete unknown, and I'm comfortable with that, and it doesn't mean I am thinking of drinking. I'm not.

Nothing is immutable and that's OK just so long as I'm sober, and I can only do that today, and being mindful of the morrow.

These are early days and I'm still all muddled, but am happy traversing the day trying to grow and learn.

See you tomorrow

JudicatorPanzer

I'm at 5 months myself. I don't obsess as much but if I see a half full bottle of beer that someone else has "finished" wonder why they would waste half a bottle of beer lol. But a friend of mine in AA who I look up to a lot says "Don't set yourself up to drink. Don't say 'if old Blue dies I might drink', or even saying I'm never going to drink again can set you up. I have to take it one day at a time with sobriety and tell myself I don't drink, I can't drink, I won't drink.

tomsteve

I haven't said im never drinking again and never changing my mind either- too many broken promises in my past. too many times I was done drinking. too many times I swore off drinking.too many times I took it off the table only to put it back on the table
but im not drinking today.

tomsteve

and that's a great way to look at it- focus on today.

Steely

Rejoice the day.

Gottalife

This makes sense to me. My past experience showed I was not too good at keeping commitments like not drinking.

But now, my past experience sober, which far outweighs my drinking experience, supports the view that I will never drink again. I don't want to drink, ever, I am in AA for permanent sobriety, and that seems to be what it is delivering. All my line of sponsorship died sober.

Gottalife

[QUOTE=kevlarsjal;6377546]

Gottalife: I did want to end the misery I found myself in and I still do. That's why I didn't drink for the last 5 months and that's why I won't drink today. And that's all I feel comfortable comitting to at this point."


This made me smile. When I joined AA they offered me a "misery back guarantee". I never took them up on it. But it was nice to know I could have my misery back if I wanted.