Ken33xx

I'm on the fence about the emphasis placed on time in AA. On the one hand I believe sobriety is one day at a time. On the other I think it is important for the newcomer to realize one can achieve long term sobriety. My first meeting a member talked about having ten years sober. Ten years! He might as well have said he went to the moon.

The most I ever had was maybe three weeks but I believed him. I didn't think he was lying.

Ken33xx

In my experience although AA members may share a similar history regarding their abusive drinking they can be quite judgmental when it comes to getting sober. Which is way it is important that cross talk is not usually allowed in meetings.

There's a regular in my Sat. night group who has maybe three years of sobriety. Friendly fellow and I like him but at another meeting he basically told a chronic relapser off. Not cool. There are also meetings where if you don't tow their party line and you can find yourself shunned.

People like to talk about AA as being this or AA being that but so much of it depends on the meetings you attend.

I liked my first meeting but thought a few of the members I met the next night were a bit... off. And whatever kool-aid they were on I didn't want it.

PhoenixJ

The whole point is sobriety through sharing and support. How can I judge others? There is nothing worse than a reformed smoker, the born again Christian who knows what is best for others because they are all better now. Once an alcoholic- always an alcoholic.

tomsteve

judgemental people in AA!?!?! it cant be!!!
oh...wait...
we are not saints.
spiritual progress not spiritual perfection.


glad ya talked to him,ken. might want to mention to him what others think of him isnt his problem.

Berrybean

Oh well. Humility doesn't always feel so good when we get a sudden dose of it, but over time it is more likely to bring serenity than any ego massage will. It sounds like he may have learned something valuable with his latest relapse, even if the lesson was a little out of his comfort zone.

I don't suppose anyone is really condemning him or judging him. Usually this stuff is an inside job, and our fears and ego lead us to project opinions onto others, when actually they're just thinking 'there for the Grace of God go I'. Hopefully he's more interested in his relationship with his HP than what others do or don't think of him (in or out of the rooms ) anyway, which will help him to just keep doing the next best thing, one hour and one day at a time.

Algorithm

I really do get that, about people realizing that it is possible, but here you have, as your example, a poster boy with eight years sober time, and then hit or miss for the last sixteen years. There's been articles written elsewhere about the effect of 'blowing' your sober time.

The thought of having to start all over again is a deterrent to drinking for many, but others simply find the revolving door and never recover from that initial feeling of failure. Eight years may have 'wowed' the newcomers once, but sixteen years is a long time to get stuck on loss of stature.

biminiblue

So, Ken I'm confused.

What is the message you are trying to convey? That one should not speak one's Truth? When he was the Poster Boy, he sure had a long way to fall, did he not? If you (and/or) others gave him an exalted position in the group that's on you, as well as him. I mean, everyone is supposed to be equal in AA.

We are all trying to make it through life the best we can. I relapsed after nearly two decades sober. I didn't feel like I was a failure, I felt like it was a comfort at a time when all of my life fell apart. As alcohol tends to do, it turned on me and then I did feel hopeless.

Thing is, God meets me where I am. Every. Time. No matter what I've done, God is there to hold me when I ask Him to. Maybe this guy will figure it out this time...but I don't understand your post at all. He is where he is. That is his reality.

Aellyce

I felt similar confusion to bimini's and a similar question reading this thread. What is the message supposed to be here? That honestly is not always met with acceptance and compassion in AA? That overconfidence is not a good idea and think before making bold and ambitious statements? That, after all, AA is just a little mini-society (as PhoenixJ pointed out) as any other, with similar hierarchical and power structures, status symbols and reactions to success and failure? Or?

BTW, I've seen similar in AA and other recovery groups. Even in therapy, just in a one-on-one relationship. SR has been probably the most neutral and welcoming of all that I have experienced so far but even here, we do see similar phenomena and patterns.

biminiblue

I think in AA it is really hard to maintain one's safe boundaries, too.

Those who are still drinking are much more likely to have no sense of personal space and it is uncomfortable for me to be around that kind of energy. Being sober for a while in AA it was easy to learn the lesson that I should try to stick close to those who had some sobriety. The energy of the people who were still drinking was dark, desperate, and scary to me.

Maybe others don't get those same "vibes" but I know for myself, I was more cautious with active drinkers - and I limited where I would spend time with them, but I certainly wouldn't ignore them or judge them out loud. I do understand why people would give this man a wide berth, though. I don't even think someone has to admit they've been drinking, it's obvious.

Aellyce

Perhaps the most helpful thought arising in response to this story in my mind is that it's a good example for the fact that every choice, declaration and action will have consequences, often quite complex ones and some that we may not expect initially. That whole karma business.

I personally doubt that sober people do not react negatively to a relapse of someone who is their peers (especially if s/he was sort of an idol), and even more if it's repetitive. Judgment is everywhere and is impossible to avoid, I think. Unconditional acceptance is pretty much an illusion, IMO at least. What is possible though is to regulate (to a certain extent) how we react to what we see, how we express a reaction, or refrain from reacting. but even when someone does their best to remain neutral and supportive, it's likely there will still be detectable vibes generated unconsciously. As well as discomfort and embarrassment. They are pretty much inevitable, realistic consequences of the scenario.

biminiblue

Exactly. Mr. Poster Boy knew what was going to happen when he came back to the rooms. It's classic fall-from-grace group behavior, and mostly comes from a place of self-protection and projection (fear) on the parts of the other members.

He'll find himself back in the fold if he stays sober. In the meantime there are consequences, but it is always far better to be honest.

Berrybean

I dunno. In my (albeit limited ) experience, when we've had people 'go back out' then we tend to hear fairly quickly that this has happened (maybe because it's a very small city) and then we're pretty sad and concerned about them. If and when they get back to the rooms then we're glad they made it back and tell them so, even if it's someone who's taking a while to learn from their relapses. Some of us are just slow learners and it can take a few attempts before we finally 'get it'.

I think the old timers in my home group would have short shrift for anyone sitting in judgement on someone who'd relapsed and then managed to find their way back. Those people can give us a valuable lesson in humility, and a stark warning of how powerful this disease can be, and just how cunning and baffling alcoholism is. For all of us, at whatever stage of our journey, it is progress, not perfection.

The strongest AA meetings, in my opinion, are those that are a refuge for the weak, not showcases for the contented.

tomsteve

i read that others considered him the poster boy of AA, but what did he think if himself?
i had to take some hard knocks to remember to look across at people and not up to. people are,welp, human-warts and all. when them warts appear its only me that gets hurt if im lookin up to.

Centered3

My heart goes out to him. I've witnessed this happening in my former home group. People seem to shun the person who relapsed and returned, as if relapse is a disease they can catch.

I give this man a lot of credit. Walking thru the AA door after a relapse is a lot harder than walking thru the AA door as a newcomer and takes a lot of courage. Think of all the ones who don't make it back. I'd be glad to see he made it back.

It is a cunning, baffling, insidious disease.

With that all being said, what exactly did you mean that he was the "poster boy"? Was his recovery being controlled by his ego, or was he truly recovered? In my home group all the recovered folks are one of the same. No one's better than or less then. You're either recovered or you're working on it.

I do not trust those with "spiritual egos" I've seen in other meetings.

EndGameNYC

I don’t know that there is or that there needs to be a point to this story or to the accompanying comments. Even if it does, people are going to express -- and have already expressed -- their own responses to it.

I never promised anyone I would stop drinking, never mind getting sober. In part because I never believed I would, nor did I generally want to get sober. And after putting down the drink, I never told anyone that I would never drink again. How could I know that? Like many others, I didn’t have an urge to announce my decision to the rest of the world. I got sober quietly within the context of AA. There was no Internet and there were no other substantial alternatives in terms of "treatment." I was never drawn towards making a show of things in my sobriety (not because of any special personal attributes; it just isn’t me), but there were plenty of people who were. I instead, and pretty early on, focused on building a better life for myself with the guidance of a few people who I came to trust. And that’s what I did. I’m hardly alone in that.

Though many people in AA do share their ESH and help others to achieve sobriety, not everyone does it for the same reason. For some people, it's therapeutic to engage in a kind of public airing, a purge of sorts, around where they've come from. For others, talking about where they've been and where they are now pulls for attention, support, sympathy and more attention. All of these things are natural and, by themselves, are not unhealthy. But they could be. I've seen it here dozens of times. And you don't need to be an alcoholic to want these things.

Expressing the honesty of our feelings is not always, necessarily or completely an honest enterprise to the extent that doing so often carries with it private motivations. Due to both my personal and professional experience, the cynical part of me, which is not insignificant, is most active when I’m questioning the sincerity of human motives. My own included. We’re too much prone to give neutral or socially acceptable labels and other nonthreatening descriptions to even our extreme breaches of simple human decency and to behaviors of questionable intent in order to make ourselves feel better about what we do. If there is compelling evidence about some natural inclination to disclose exactly why we say or do something in any consistent way, then I’ve yet to see it; someone who struggles with the integrity of their own personal choices gives away the ambivalence surrounding their behavior by doing just that. A person who “who speaks his mind” is not always trustworthy. “I’m not stealing, I’m just doing what’s best for me and my family.” A “slip” or a relapse is just a “bump in the road” that is functionally equivalent to every other bump on the same highway.

Living years of one's life being criticized, shunned, humiliated and (sometimes) involuntarily alienated from other people provides a context from which it becomes seductive to want things like attention and support which is often, or at least seems to be, unconditional in AA. In my experience, there were plenty of people along the way who made it their mission to be Mr., Mrs., or Ms. AA. You need no other skills beyond what you're naturally given to know something like this when you see it, as impolite that some people may believe that it is to talk about it. Though it isn’t my business to “take people’s inventory,” it most certainly is in my better interest, and sometimes my responsibility, to know who and what I’m dealing with. Early on, I was taken by such people for their seemingly endless energy and their willingness to help. Later, I avoided some of them for their aggressiveness and their obvious disregard for the well-being of people who were struggling to get sober, their focusing instead on maintaining whatever illusory sense of prominence they held within the AA “community.” In the end, it only mattered whether or not they were helping people, without regard for what motivated them to do so. And, in this case, the person did stay sober for eight years. But I still kept my distance.

Punishment is hardly the remedy for people who overreach in their attempts to be liked or accepted. But sometimes the behavior itself does tend to rub people the wrong way. The OP laid out the context in which the relevant events unfolded, and the local responses to what this person did are only expectable. People are afraid for themselves when presented with a person who gave away long-term sobriety, and some may be holding a kind of resentment around that person’s obvious grabs for attention. So what? We are, after all, only human. A wholly compassionate response may be most helpful, but it is only an ideal that few people can approximate without casting a shadow on their own humanity. We either do the best we can, or we don’t. It isn’t an ethical proposition.

As I have done under similar circumstances, the OP approached this man and, by doing so, offered relief and support for someone in need. What did I have to lose, and what else was I to do? People who are excessive in areas of their self-appraisal more often than not do much more damage to themselves than can any other force of nature. It’s not anyone’s responsibility that some people use sobriety as a staging area to feed their egos, as is true of any other area of human endeavor. Part of the problem with getting sober is distorted or otherwise unrealistic expectations about who I am and what I need when I first put down the drink. I was not the best person to decide what I needed when I walked into my first AA meeting, and I know that I was not alone in this. For people who find it difficult to ask for help, getting unsolicited help or support can be both a welcoming relief and a potential threat. In either case, it is not something that many of us experience as a matter of course while we were drinking.

Ken33xx

When the man returned from 30-days in a rehab he had a lot to say about staying sober. He's not annoying nor does he go on and one while sharing. But I remember a few members saying we've heard this spiel many times before.

He said nothing at the meeting last Saturday until I asked if there were any burning desires. Then he spoke up about his recent relapse.

The message I am trying to convey is it might wise not to make any declarations of sobriety if one has a history of going back out. Why? Because people talk. They gossip.

Which isn't to suggest one keep quite but to take things one day at a time. We're all sober today and let's leave it at that.

Ken33xx

As was mentioned he as embarrassed but he's not a wallflower. He didn't make any excuses. He blew it and that was that.

However, I was surprised to see him walk away so quickly after the meeting. So, I caught up with him outside and chatted a bit.

Ken33xx

Yeah, I've read articles/books which discuss the effects of blowing your sober time and have heard members said, "f-it." I lost the time might as well keep drinking. Or the fellow who after five years went on a short bender. A couple of weeks later he decided it didn't count and he was back to five years again.

Ken33xx

Never easy especially if there aren`t a lot of meetings in your area.

You return and gotta face the music so to speak.