paulokes

A lot of problem drinkers find they have issues with codependency and intimacy when they out the booze down. The idea that a person will fix us, the realization that we are driven and defined by other people more than we realised.

That's my overwhelming experience and I would suggest any ex drinker would benefit from looking at that.

P

FBL

Brenda, sorry that I don't have any sage advice on your particular situation. I think most of us drank like we did to escape our problems and hide from our true feelings. When we sober up, we find we now have to deal with such things. It can be overwhelming, but I've learned to take it one step at a time. Things have a way of working themselves out, as long as we face them sober.

shortstop81

Hey Brenda. Although I'm not in your exact situation, I've been in a similar one where the relationship was complicated beyond belief due to circumstances. I think I also thrived on the drama, and the expectations that I placed on our eventual happiness together. I think it did temporarily fill that void within me, but it wasn't healthy for me in the long run (go figure!). I even knew this on an intellectual level, but couldn't let this person (or my idea of this person) go.

I still have contact with this person today, but it's low key and takes a back seat to working on my sobriety. Now I try not to entertain any expectations, and instead let the Universe decide how things are going to play out. I'm not a religious person, but in this case I like the quote "Let go and let God".

I know in your situation contact with this man doesn't seem a likely prospect. As much as it hurts right now, I believe that you will eventually think of him less & less as time goes on. You aren't doomed to be thinking about him forever, although I'm sure that's hard to believe right now.

I think it's great that you're able to vent and spill out all those thoughts and feelings here at SR. It's not only good for you but for many of us reading and going through similar things.

August252015

When you say things about people not responding etc, to me (perhaps others) it sounds defensive and self-pitying. We are all trying to help and it is hard to know how a sensitive person will react.

As others have said- you, too- you have talked about the same issues a lot, and from the outside we see a lot of reasons it would be so much better for you to figure out a way to let it all go.

It may annoy you to hear this because perhaps it sounds trite....time takes time. This is true for sobriety and our progress, and it is true for getting over someone. Both of those I can attest to from my ESH. I'll also echo what others have said and say that nothing was better when I was drinking, and everything is better - meaning clearer, not easy or perfect or quickly healed- sober. That's the biggest part of your comments that worry me as it is definitely the AV knocking at the door to get you on a path to drinking. Resentments are the number one reason we go back to drinking- even if it seems insane that we resent sobriety so we drink.

What can we do or say that will really be helpful? And if we can offer what you think will help, will you try it?

BrendaChenowyth

I was trying to be nice and let someone know that they could talk to me without fear of my flipping out on them.

BrendaChenowyth

Guys, I am not here because I am out of ways to cope or am somehow refusing to cope. This is how I cope.

Berrybean

Hey BC. How are you feeling today. Are you out of the vortex? I hope so. That place is Hell on Earth. Xx

Aellyce

But you do sometimes have an antagonistic (albeit subtle) way of reacting to comments. You may not feel that way but when people read it objectively (especially since writing/reading is the only possible communication channel here), they may detect a certain level of push/pull, at times asking for help in what may seem like quite a desperate state of mind and soon after defending your independence and ability to cope. It is possible that I am projecting into your posts somewhat but overall they often transmit these kinds of fluctuations. I think I do get using these intense communications and reactivity as coping though.

As for why people worry (I think you wondered this on another thread as well), I think it's simply because you talk a lot about your complex personal challenges, past and present. And at times you express ambivalence about your sobriety (eg. "I almost wish I hadn't gotten sober"). This is a recovery forum, where most members are quite adamant about sobriety as a priority, it is the main purpose of the board. So when we offer suggestions, typically the protection of sobriety is a priority over other things and it is discussed most often.

As for that "emptiness" thing you mentioned yesterday... I think pretty much every human being has their own version, addict or not. It's almost more a philosophical concept than a mental state (and you can read plenty about it in that context). I think the experience of it is highly subjective but what seems to be quite common is that we perceive it as a drive that causes restlessness. Is it a vague/lack of sense of self for you, or is it missing something, for example? And one question I always like to ask in this context: why not to learn to live with that so-called void instead of endlessly searching for something that appears lacking or incomplete, and trying to fill that "space" or even just find it? Focus more on what is here rather than what is missing? And if it's something that can be defined, try to create it rather than long for it eternally?

If you are interested in these kinds of existential dilemmas and discussions, there have been plenty here on SR over time (that you can find in older threads), some astonishingly rich and high quality. When I first got sober and started using SR a lot, I had a keen eye on those and was actively looking for members to discuss those areas with. I found it very helpful at the time, for quite a while actually.

EndGameNYC

This is a problem. Your current assumption is that everything would have been fine, that you wouldn't now be lonely, that this is a relationship that not only could have "worked," but would have been healthy in ways that seemed impossible when you originally described what was going on, that it would also have been impossible for him to have any kind of questionable dealings with other caregivers because you were the one he was pursuing, that you were somehow delusional, or at least out-of-touch with what was going on at the time that you made the healthy decision to move on, and that your decision to move on from this mess was a mistake that you cannot now undo because a very unhealthy part of you is now obsessing over him and his absence, around which you feel guilty and unfulfilled.

What do alcoholics and other addicted people do, particularly in early recovery? We beat ourselves up over making healthy choices that deny us of something else that's unhealthy because unhealthy is all we know

Obsessing about people because of a yawning gap in our feelings is not the same thing as love. The reality is that this is precisely the kind of thing that blocks any possibility of experiencing true love and affection. We only call it love and affection because facing the alternatives is not something that we want to do. Obsession does not breed love, but only feeds the obsession. Filling the emptiness in my heart that started growing in my childhood with people and things does not take away the pain or resolve the kinds of destructive behaviors in which I tend to engage in order to avoid feeling the way I’m feeling. It never worked that way.

EndGameNYC

There are many varieties of therapy/psychotherapy, so there's too much to explain here. Time-limited therapies that work on a particular problem don't pay much attention to who the whole person is, though that's certainly a part of the work. Other therapies proved for a deeper understanding of who and what we are as means of gaining, not insight, but acceptance.

It's not what the therapist says. We are not endowed with infinite wisdom due to our education and training. And we are in the main (therapists who work in ways that are similar to the way in which I work) not in the business of providing tips and tricks or very much in the way of advice. Advice-giving and an abundance of support in the place of a deeper understanding of who and what we are is more in the domain of counseling. It's how the relationship between patient and therapist unfolds, and how each person manages the inevitable conflicts and other situations that arise in any relationship that makes all the difference. The "why" is never as important as the "who."

We learn who we are and the meaning and consequences of what we think, feel and do in relationship to other people. In this case, in relationship to the therapist. Who and what we are and what we do in the consulting room is ultimately no different than who and what we are and what we do outside of the therapeutic relationship. No on is capable of pretending to be something and someone he or she is not over the long-term in this kind of intimate relationship. The more we try to hide, the more that which we are attempting to hide becomes obvious. And then the work focuses on what was motivating the need to hide.

It's not the therapist, but the relationship that heals.

EndGameNYC

Aellyce

I did not want to elaborate on the therapy topic, Brenda, because you did not seem interested and I sometimes feel that I'm biased and at times over-enthusiastic about it (because it's something I both enjoy and find useful). Just want to say that EndGame's post on it is worth giving a deeper thought. As he said, there are many approaches one can choose from and overwhelming amount of info online. For example, just regarding your topic: many people use therapy to experience closure they never could have in "ordinary" relationships... using the relationship with the therapist. Or to arrive at a state when they realize they no longer need to process or close past things any further.

I've worked with three different therapists in sobriety, each with quite different personality and approach, and each experience brought up different things (also many similar patterns of course) and provided different benefits. It can also be quite fun actually (at least for me) if you like to dive deeply into your inner landscapes and mechanisms and how you function in the interpersonal world. Lots of interesting things to explore and occupy yourself with also between the actual appointments, if you want. My therapists also helped me a lot to explore my own obsessiveness and the many layers of it... and especially the last one helped to actually overcome some very stubborn forms of it. And it wasn't with what the therapist said per se... but the result of a dynamic process that we co-created. Of course it takes time, sometimes discomfort, and a lot of effort, just like recovery.

soberlicious

This stood out to me as well. I feel like "closure" can sometimes be used as an excuse to be in contact again with someone. Continued contact until one reaches necessary closure...which never happens of course, is what bemyself pointed out as so similar to addiction. "I just need to see him one more time, for closure" tuns into "I still don't have closure...I need to keep talking it out with him" which leads to...well, more of the same. I am a firm believer that closure comes from within. Something is over when we ourselves decide it's over.

Aellyce

I very much agree with this. I also think that looking for closure in a destructive or otherwise unhealthy relationship is akin to wanting our alcoholism to be over before we actually give up drinking. Or trying to invest a lot of time into figuring out why we drink, expecting that to help to live sober happily in some mysterious future. I personally do believe that it's possible to close very challenging and painful experiences and genuinely move on but the closure rarely occurs in the context that involved the original damage and pain, and is rarely something that can be foreseen and planned. Why stepping out and doing things differently first is more constructive.

BrendaChenowyth

I propose that if someone is being antagonistic, one of the worst things another person can do is point out that fact. It's like saying "Your buttons are showing and I can see them and I'm going to touch them and you can't fault me for that because you're the one having the buttons.." I dunno.. I'll go back now and respond to the other stuff..

BrendaChenowyth

There isn't too much specific left to say on my little trip in to the void, even after reading the thoughtful replies.. I do want to thank everyone who tried to help.. I have an ambivalence towards my vents, because while I vehemently defend my need to do so, as many of you have seeen, I typically end up snapping out of it and then wondering why I felt the need to share so much.. in most cases when I'm like the way I was yesterday, there is nothing new to be said that I don't actually deep down know.. and I just end up frustrating others and then I say I'm frustrated at their frustration and they say they're frustrated about my frustration at their frustration.. that is really the way it appears to play out when I read it back once I've snapped out of it and gotten to a better frame of mind.. just me and bunch of folks sniping about our mutual frustrations about me.

I did go to Mass for the first time and it was lovely.. and other than not anticipating how long a Catholic service would be, I loved it and plan to return every Sunday. It really helped to re-balance me.

fini

"have an ambivalence towards my vents, because while I vehemently defend my need to do so, as many of you have seeen, I typically end up snapping out of it and then wondering why I felt the need to share so much.. in most cases when I'm like the way I was yesterday, there is nothing new to be said that I don't actually deep down know.. and I just end up frustrating others and then I say I'm frustrated at their frustration and they say they're frustrated about my frustration at their frustration"

Just thinking, BC, that blog posts might serve you well.....for the most part, people on't reply there to vents, and it seems you possibly intend these posts more like journalling? with not really wanting input?

BrendaChenowyth

At the time, when I'm doing it, I think I need to know someone is listening, but never feel certain I'm being heard unless someone replies.. this could explain my prayer life consisting of "Give me strength... and oh by the way, I promise I'll get better at this."

KAD

"Seeking closure" with someone also assumes that that someone with whom we are seeking it is as interested as we are in achieving it. In my experience, the other person has already long since moved on, and my efforts to rehash the past only creates more scenarios for which I need closure!

BrendaChenowyth

I haven't been able to sleep.. I was supposed to work my little min. wage seasonal job I sometimes do for extra money, said I would work at 8, but it's 3:30 and I've been tossing and turning, obsessing over the same old thing.. I just can't understand it. I try to sleep and all I can see is him. It's really beginning to freak me out. Oh, btw.. someone mentioned earlier in the thread it's a bad sign that I'm deciding to become Catholic because HE was Catholic, he wasn't, I was mistaken, he's Lutheran.

I wanted to call my old best friend tonight.. the last time I did talk to him was the evening after the election, which was the day before I quit my previous job.. I would call him and vent but he's dealing with his own recent relapse.. he posted a picture to fb of a terrible bruise he sustained from a fall he has no recollection of.. I know if I called him, the conversation would be one sided.. I'd have nothing to share that could help him.. he would have no idea how to help me.. Feeling very disconnected and lost.