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Old 12-14-2016, 07:20 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Alcohol CAN be enjoyed and not abused.. I think knowing that and seeing that is a huge part of OUR misery.

But some of us received the message that we needed alcohol to deal with life events. It's prevalent in my family. For example..

I have a cousin 3 years younger than me. She had a driving accident and her passenger, my sister, wound up with a head injury and had to be life flighted (she's fine, she started getting straight A-s after that lol) but my cousin's dad (my mom's brother) sat her down at the table and set a beer in front of her, and said "drink", and by the time she'd get done with one, he'd have another open and waiting. She was a teenager, and she was being taught that when really bad things happened and she had really bad feelings, drinking was the solution. Today she's in her late twenties and from what I see on Fb, she still drinks a lot, doesn't do much else.

Parenting horror story of the day!
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BrendaChenowyth View Post
Alcohol CAN be enjoyed and not abused.. I think knowing that and seeing that is a huge part of OUR misery.
One might also suggest that this line of thinking is more of a resentment or jealousy though. Comparing ourselves to others and what they can or cannot do is not helpful in any shape or form.
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by GetMeOut View Post
Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
When someone claiming AA membership tells me they didn't have to take the steps and therefore I wouldn't need to, not only is that not true, it is quite dangerous to me.
If you choose to believe him/her. It is also quite dangerous to others if one attempts to determine for them whether or not AA is suitable based upon a somewhat subjective determination of alcoholism.
It sounds like both of your are arguing over whether or not clumsy 12-Steppers, or perhaps even those outside of AA, are potentially "killing alcoholics" by dissuading people from attending AA, or from working the steps.

Does that about sum things up?

The way I see it, problem drinkers are acutely aware that they have a problem, usually because they drink entirely too much for their own good, or because they love drinking more than anything. They are usually looking for any possible way to avoid solving the problem, however, because they know that might mean -- gasp! -- no more drinking.

This is not 1935, however. All of the problem drinkers are keenly aware of the existence of AA, and most of them can easily find a meeting and read the grade-school-level Big Book in a day or two. No one is killing anyone, except possibly themselves.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI View Post
One might also suggest that this line of thinking is more of a resentment or jealousy though. Comparing ourselves to others and what they can or cannot do is not helpful in any shape or form.
That is actually the exact point I was making.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:52 AM
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Algorithm.. What I see being said there is that it can be potentially dangerous to advise another alcoholic how he or she should approach recovery, since something different is going to work for everyone.. It is just not true that everyone has to join AA or do the steps, but it is also not true to say that those steps are not necessary just because some people could get sober without them..
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:59 AM
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clumsy 12-Steppers
grade-school-level Big Book


Hey Algo

I know you are very passionate about Rational Recovery, and that is awesome. And I've been meaning to dig more into the stickies on the secular sub forum so I can learn more. I'm always open to anything that help me stay sober....and be happy. All at the same time even.

I'm not trying to get into some negative discussion. Truly I'm not. And your feelings about AA are obvious and I completely accept that. Support it. I'm happy you have found what works for you.

A suggestion: Many come here who simply will not try AA. Or they cannot. Or they have had a bad experience. They are looking for options. Have you thought about being a little more, dunno, approachable when presenting your views? I mean, you are who you are. But if I were new, read stuff that took obvious aim at people's intelligence, I would be very intimidated. I would think "Man, I must have to be really intellectual, like this guy, in order to recover with Rational Recovery. I hate AA. I'm outta here".

I am so happy you have found a program that works for you. Frankly I have a lot of questions and have often thought of asking them in the Secular forum. But I'm scared of being called stupid and clumsy, ya know?

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233 View Post
Frankly I have a lot of questions and have often thought of asking them in the Secular forum. But I'm scared of being called stupid and clumsy, ya know?
I appreciate the feedback. I'm not calling anyone stupid, though. I was borrowing from the two OP's I quoted, who are accusing others of being clumsy in their approach to AA, for apparently opposing reasons. One favors a more limited view of membership, and the other favors a more relaxed view.

I will let both of them respond to my commentary, if they wish, but they both appear to believe that people cannot make up their own minds about attending AA, or the need to work the steps. I don't agree with that assessment, and I wouldn't agree with a similar assessment regarding any other approach, either.

Alcoholics and other addicted people are not nearly as incompetent as they are often made out to be by the experts. Their priorities are usually misplaced, but they are usually rather capable. They usually have to be clever by necessity, because maintaining an addiction is not easy.

This includes you, Frickaflip233. You are perfectly capable of doing what you must, and ending your addiction, but you may need to start trusting yourself in order to do so. By all means, do read the freely available information on Secular Connections, and ask away, if you wish.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
It sounds like both of your are arguing over whether or not clumsy 12-Steppers, or perhaps even those outside of AA, are potentially "killing alcoholics" by dissuading people from attending AA, or from working the steps.

Does that about sum things up?.
Not really. I didn't have the feeling we were arguing, and killing hasn't been mentioned as far as I am aware. Drama is not helpful. What we were discussing is whether or not zero steppers or two steppers can carry a useful message of hope and recovery. I've never met a clumsy 12 stepper btw.

While it is not 1935, some things haven't changed. One of those is that almost none of us in AA liked the way the AA program looked when we first saw it. We tried everything else first, AA being only the last resort when all else fails. And even then we look for easier softer ways through the program.

The alcoholic mind is very open to suggestion towards drinking and or comfort. . For example, sister Ignatia noticed that the recovery rate was lower when a relapser was in the group. I can understand that. Thought it myself, when I was new, had been avoiding the program and was starting to feel uncomfortable. The relapser was proof that you could get away with it and still come back. And if he got away with it maybe I..........

Interesting your comment about grade school writing in the big book. It was still way above my head. Alcohol did a lot of damage to me and my iq was somewhere near my shoe size when I asked for help. Without a sponsor to take me through I doubt I would have survived. Yet at school I was top in the school for English and maths several years running.

Being one of the stupider people to come to AA has been an advantage. Too stupid to argue and challenge, too gullible and trusting, I just followed some simple suggestions that were within my capacity to carry out, and I got well.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
I will let both of them respond to my commentary, if they wish, but they both appear to believe that people cannot make up their own minds about attending AA, or the need to work the steps.
I'm not really sure how you arrived at that conclusion based upon anything I said, but it is by no means what I believe.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
I appreciate the feedback. I'm not calling anyone stupid, though. I was borrowing from the two OP's I quoted, who are accusing others of being clumsy in their approach to AA, for apparently opposing reasons. One favors a more limited view of membership, and the other favors a more relaxed view.

I will let both of them respond to my commentary, if they wish, but they both appear to believe that people cannot make up their own minds about attending AA, or the need to work the steps. I don't agree with that assessment, and I wouldn't agree with a similar assessment regarding any other approach, either.

Alcoholics and other addicted people are not nearly as incompetent as they are often made out to be by the experts. Their priorities are usually misplaced, but they are usually rather capable. They usually have to be clever by necessity, because maintaining an addiction is not easy.

This includes you, Frickaflip233. You are perfectly capable of doing what you must, and ending your addiction, but you may need to start trusting yourself in order to do so. By all means, do read the freely available information on Secular Connections, and ask away, if you wish.
This, is a big reason attempts as sobriety fail. It's a lack of trust in ourselves.

Look, society is going to try to sell us a lot of things, but we have to be discerning about which things we buy in to. Choose to buy in to the belief that recovery is possible, that you are capable and deserving of a better life, that you can move on from your past and live a different life whenever you choose to, that you are not defined by what others think of you..
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
I
I will let both of them respond to my commentary, if they wish, but they both appear to believe that people cannot make up their own minds about attending AA, or the need to work the steps. I don't agree with that assessment, and I wouldn't agree with a similar assessment regarding any other approach, either.

Alcoholics and other addicted people are not nearly as incompetent as they are often made out to be by the experts. Their priorities are usually misplaced, but they are usually rather capable. They usually have to be clever by necessity, because maintaining an addiction is not easy.

.
It must be down to our grade school writing that you are missing the point algo. It is not about intelligence or incompetence, or the newcomer deciding whether and how to do AA or not. It is much simpler than that.

The newcomer is faced with two questions to decide.

Do you want what we have?
If you do, are you willing to do what we did? Yes?
Well then, we better tell you what we did.

The crucial thing is that the newcomer is given the opportunity to check out the program as a basis for their decision. "This is what we did" doesn't carry the same weight if you didn't actually do it.

Many of us were, when we came to AA, on the verge of having out lives completely taken over by the state for our own good. Quite a few of us came to AA via institutions that do just that. Societies opinion seems to be that we were not capable of sanely or wisely running our own lives. We were too clever by half.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
What we were discussing is whether or not zero steppers or two steppers can carry a useful message of hope and recovery. I've never met a clumsy 12 stepper btw.
OK, you win here with the word play. Nicely done.

Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
The alcoholic mind is very open to suggestion towards drinking and or comfort. . For example, sister Ignatia noticed that the recovery rate was lower when a relapser was in the group. I can understand that.
I can understand this as well, unfortunately. It's why I will never suggest more drinking to anyone who even remotely appears to have a problem with it. It's rather interesting that Sister Ignatia recognized this so long ago.

I won't even venture to enumerate the many profoundly stupid things that my "alcoholic mind" was suggestible to, but I can't blame that suggestibility on others. I would consider that idea as coming from the alcoholic mind itself.

The best advice I ever received was to never touch another drop of alcohol, long before I became addicted, but I paid little attention, unfortunately.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:40 PM
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I have to agree on the suggestibility thing.. it's a cop out. We can't avoid all triggers because they aren't actually external! What triggers us is our reactions to things around us.

However I believe in the law of attraction and that what we think about most shows up the most.. so when we focus our attention on recovery and healing, we find ourselves on that path.. For me, just me personally, sitting in a room with other alcoholics discussing how badly we want to drink, is going to put my mind on that frequency, and make maintaining my sobriety more difficult, because I am not on the path I need to be on, I am still on the path of alcoholism.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:41 PM
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This includes you, Frickaflip233. You are perfectly capable of doing what you must, and ending your addiction, but you may need to start trusting yourself in order to do so.

Thanks Algo. This actually has nothing to do with my post but I hear what you're saying.
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233 View Post
clumsy 12-Steppers
grade-school-level Big Book


Hey Algo

I know you are very passionate about Rational Recovery, and that is awesome. And I've been meaning to dig more into the stickies on the secular sub forum so I can learn more. I'm always open to anything that help me stay sober....and be happy. All at the same time even.

I'm not trying to get into some negative discussion. Truly I'm not. And your feelings about AA are obvious and I completely accept that. Support it. I'm happy you have found what works for you.

A suggestion: Many come here who simply will not try AA. Or they cannot. Or they have had a bad experience. They are looking for options. Have you thought about being a little more, dunno, approachable when presenting your views? I mean, you are who you are. But if I were new, read stuff that took obvious aim at people's intelligence, I would be very intimidated. I would think "Man, I must have to be really intellectual, like this guy, in order to recover with Rational Recovery. I hate AA. I'm outta here".

I am so happy you have found a program that works for you. Frankly I have a lot of questions and have often thought of asking them in the Secular forum. But I'm scared of being called stupid and clumsy, ya know?

Just my opinion.
Hello Frickaflip, you're neither 'stupid nor clumsy' nor is anyone on SR! I joined SR in February this year, discovered and read, repeatedly the threads in Secular Connections regarding AVRT in August - best decision in my life and more than probably saved it. I also have experience of AA, having done the steps twice, two sponsors and a sponsor 'buddy' no less, to no avail. Twenty plus years of daily drinking (save 11 days) and for the last five years ended up on at least the equivalent of bottle of vodka a day or more (fifth), so I guess I was an alcoholic.

Against that backdrop, AVRT worked for me. I believe it can work for anyone addicted to alcohol, psychologically or physically or both. But, it requires all the learning and angst up front. But once you have learnt it, it requires no fighting the AV, one day at a time. But, you do have o decide that you will never drink alcohol and you will never change your mind (the Big Plan). No relapse possibilities. That is HUGE!

But once I learnt AVRT on this site and made that Big Plan (I will never drink alcohol and I will never drink again) it became almost effortless to dismiss or ignore the AV (it's not ME it's the AV of the mis-directed alcohol drive). Then, as neuro-plasticity kicked in, it became plain sailing.

I appreciate your posts Frickaflip, there is no intellectualism in AVRT, nor is there a religious element, nor an exclusion of people who are religious; it can work for anybody regardless of their creed or not.

Personally, Frickaflip, I really wish you would post any questions in the Secular Connections thread!

Not that I can speak for Algorithm, but having learnt AVRT after reading the six-part thread and other related threads - part of the learning process is inquisitorial, You have to delve into the addicted persons thought processes and separate the alcohol drive from the persons true, or authentic self. The self that wants to stop drinking.

Therefore it might seem nit-picking and overly-intellectual when folks question your post - but really it's not; it's designed to activate your higher, true self, above the base drive.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
Well, they reckon that of booze was discovered today it would be banned.
Who is "they"? Banned?!
Clean water, a challenge when humans began to settle. Cities, towns. Is it possible that in Europe they used fermentation? And the resulting alcohol killed microbes?
On the other side of the world people purified their water by boiling it and making tea.
Evolutionary pressure to be able to drink, break down, and detoxify alcohol? European.

It wasn't banned.
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Old 12-15-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubovski View Post
I think that AA can help people who see their drinking a problem as well as the more serious extreme cases. Perhaps a bit of ambiguity gets in the way.

Is AA exclusively for the extreme non functional, unemployable, soon to be dead alcoholic or other people suffering lesser from alcohol as well?
In the Big Book AA seems to condone even heavy drinkers, so long as they hold down a job and looked after their family. They do say such drinkers may die a few years earlier ,in passing, but hardly a condemnation.
AA really need to clarify their support for the non problem drinker.
How are such people assessed relevant to any bad future behaviour based on drinking?
I spent a few years with AA and admire some of their work.
However dissenters to what seems deemed the entire core values seem frowned on by a good many.
The BB does say that new insights will become part of the program, beyond the1930s genre and it's a shame more members don't engage such forward thinking interaction.
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:29 PM
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It is not really about the 1930s. 1939 was when the big book was first published. Nobody knew how it would go. It could have failed completely. The reluctance to change it comes from how phenomenally successful the book was over the next 16 years. The fellowship grew from 100 to over 150,000. Just play with those numbers a bit and you can see how busy those early members must have been.

But it wasn't all one alcoholic working with another. In New Zealand, AA was started by one man with a copy of the book. It took him two years to find another alcoholic and for the first group. That was in 1946. He only had contact with AA new York by snail mail. Reading the foreword to the second edition gives a good idea of how well AA was working by 1955.

Through those years, 1935 to about 1955 the groups tried all sorts of other activities involving non alcoholics of various kinds. In every case they failed hence tradition 5 about singleness of purpose, which came about through experience.

Loss of control and choice are the defining characteristics of the AA alcoholic. I had lost both long before I became too sick to continue.

Yet I had buddies who were hard drinkers, knocking back a steady quantity most nights of the week, like four to six nights a week. Very bad for their health, a definite problem, but they never lost control nor the power of choice. They did not have the behavioural or emotional problems I had. Their lives were steady, for want of a better word. One or two stopped on a doctors warning. I wanted to be like them but lacked the control. I am glad I didn't get my wish as practically all of them died in their fifties.

These guys were problem drinkers for a different reason. Straight out health reasons. That is why alcohol would be banned if it was discovered today. In drug terms it belongs in the same class as heroin. As a carcinogenic, it is in the same class as cigarettes. It is a cause of heart disease, liver disease, a whole range of cancers. Even alcoholism didn't exist, alcohol is still a threat to health.

The AA program has of course been developed and changed to treat a variety of conditions. I am told there are something like two hundred different fellowships out there developed for all kinds of problems. The AA program has always been freely available to anyone who wants to develop a spiritual way of living, and to people with other afflictions who want to utilise the program in a fellowship of their own.
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:34 PM
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Thanks for your post Tatsy. I will take the time to read the stickies (I have read some btw) in the Secular forum. I just have to make it a priority.

I'm so glad you are doing well with RR! Do you think I should order the book or is there enough info in the stickies?
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Frickaflip233 View Post
This includes you, Frickaflip233. You are perfectly capable of doing what you must, and ending your addiction, but you may need to start trusting yourself in order to do so.

Thanks Algo. This actually has nothing to do with my post but I hear what you're saying.
It has everything to do with it, Frickaflip. You haven't ended your addiction, which means there are two of you in there, each pulling in opposite directions. Your addiction is still actively coloring your thoughts, even your thoughts about me, but you're not seeing it.

Let's take a look at your post:

Originally Posted by Frickaflip233 View Post
I know you are very passionate about Rational Recovery, and that is awesome. And I've been meaning to dig more into the stickies on the secular sub forum so I can learn more. I'm always open to anything that help me stay sober....and be happy. All at the same time even.
The ".... and be happy" stuff above is actually your addiction talking. It has set up a roadblock to quitting — "getting happy" — as if quitting drinking were a bargain requiring a payoff for the potential loss of that precious stuff. That's only because the part of you that loves to drink can't imagine a satisfactory life without that precious alcohol.

If you keep falling for that old line, you'll go around in circles forever, trying to "get happy" instead of quitting, and hoping that "getting happy" will somehow give you the motivation to finally quit drinking. The problem is, you aren't likely to ever have the opportunity to "get happy" until you first quit drinking.

It's actually your addiction that wants me to tone down my very positive message, and which blames me for the choice not to read all the freely available material in secular connections. It argues that I have to become more approachable before you can even read anything that might give you the idea that you can actually quit.

Would you look at that? Another roadblock to quitting drinking. How sneaky!

Your addiction will recoil from any suggestion that you are perfectly capable of quitting drinking forever, and steer you anywhere that suggests that you are somehow not able to do so, unless certain conditions — preferably unlikely ones — are met first. It will suggest that some things work for some people, but that nothing works for everyone, so nothing will work for you.

I have full faith in your capacity to finally recover, Frickaflip, even if you do not.

Very positive indeed.
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