Ionray

Well now I've heard everything. I've heard many doubts and criticisms levelled against AA as being "too religious" and people being put off by all the references to God and Higher Power, but AA being rejected for being "unbiblical garbage" and therefore not religious ENOUGH? That's a new one on this old alcoholic.

Sorry to say it but that sounds like a cop-out and an excuse for more drinking. That is the AV I mentioned previously, in textbook form, essentially convincing your husband, "See, AA doesn't work or isn't good enough. It's not Christian enough or biblical enough" (or XYZ enough), and masquerading as his own thoughts. Doesn't matter what XYZ is, if your AV figures out that it's important to you, it will use it as an excuse to convince you to give up on recovery and keep drinking.

Because that's all the AV cares about. Your husband loves you and doesn't want to hurt you. The AV doesn't care two hoots about you and convinces your husband that the good feelings from alcohol are worth risking deceiving you and hiding stuff. This is why your husband, who truly loves you and doesn't want to hurt you, continues to do things that hurt you. You wonder "Why would he do such a thing?" It's because he's listening to the AV and unable to differentiate the truth from the lies. See where I'm going here?

As for being "unbiblical garbage", there is nothing in AA (or RR for that matter) that conflicts with any particuar spiritual or religious belief system. It is by design intended to be inclusive because if the program were for Christians only, there would be an awful lot of people who would not or could not be helped by it, and the whole purpose of the program is to help alcoholics - not just Christian alcoholics.

Having said that, I'm sure there are plenty of Christian-oriented AA groups out there; it may be your husband just hasn't found the right AA group or meeting. It may be worth a call to your local home office and describe your husband's particular situation. I'm sure someone there can point him in the right direction.

As for RR, if he "needs" a Christian, faith-based recovery program to stay sober, it's not RR. RR is strictly secular in nature; it certainly doesn't reject any religious or spiritual beliefs, but it doesn't depend on them either. RR says that there is nothing wrong with seeking spiritual enrichment, but it is separate from, unrelated to, and therefore not a prerequisite for, recovery from addiction. RR can help you find a way to get (and stay permanently) sober and leaves your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to you.

In any case, best wishes I hope and pray that both you and your husband are able to overcome addiction and find some peace.

tomsteve

im not sure if I should apologize for laughing at a practicing alcoholic calling AA unbiblical.

but I know im laughing because I had many misconceptions of AA at one time,too.

Algorithm

I won't re-post it here, but take a look at this post regarding RR/AVRT and Christianity:

For any Christians reluctant to post here...

Don't believe those who claim that the training deity (the "Higher Power") is the G-d of the prophets. The G-d of the prophets is not usually in the business of removing the desire to drink in order for people to abstain, and instead expects people to restrain themselves as a matter of duty.

Your husband probably knows this.

Mountainmanbob

I have never heard that before.
MM

Mountainmanbob

I have attended churches who support that view but, it never stopped me from attending AA because in my heart I know the One who supports me in my sobriety. All need not have my Higher Power as long as I know who He is.

M-Bob

ByHisLove

Well, un-biblical garbage is actually probably not the word he used, I think that was me interpreting his reasoning and cramming it into a nutshell. I'm still not sure if I truly understand what he's trying to explain or not. It may just be that because he's Christian, he wants Christian based recovery. You may be right though and that he was just maybe not in the right group for him last time.

When I read about RR, I actually wondered if it could work for him because it's based on making a commitment to get sober and stay sober. Couldn't he make that commitment to God? Couldn't his AV be any sin that involves him not staying sober?* I feel like it almost sounds too simple, but if I understand the concept correctly, aren't 1 and 2 the same? 1) I will know when it's my AV because it will involve drinking again. 2) I will know that it's a sin because it will involve drinking again.* However, I'm not sure I've even fully thought it out yet... Or that I fully understand everything I read about it.

I also think his rejection of AA is probably a cop-out because he wants to keep drinking. He isn't able to control his AV at this point. It is stronger than his desire to get clean. I listened and believed the lies of my AV for many years, until 23 days ago. One morning I woke up and my desire to quit was finally stronger than my desire to use.

ByHisLove

He knows that being a practicing alcoholic is not biblical, he knows he is sinning every time he takes a drink. I'm actually the one that interpreted what he was telling me about why he didn't want to go to AA and chose the phrase un-biblical garbage based on what I thought he was saying. I'm not completely sure if I understand what he was trying to say or not.... He did go to AA for 3 years, it's not like he's forming his opinion with no knowledge. He's basing his opinion about AA on his experience of being a member of AA. Or, his AV is telling him lies about his experience in AA to keep him drinking.

Don't get me wrong, I wish he would go back. I don't agree with his opinion, but I don't know enough about it yet to have an opinion. I haven't been since I was maybe 12 and used to go with my dad....

ByHisLove

I think I might just be being dense, but for some reason I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you saying that those who choose God as their higher power are not actually choosing the true God if their desire to drink is removed because God would not do that because he expects them to abstain on their own? And that if their desire to drink is removed then they aren't choosing the true God as their higher power? My husband probably knows that God expects him to abstain on his own?

Algorithm

Yes, absolutely, as in "I will never drink again."

Drinking, in and of itself, would be the sin here. His AV would be any thinking or feeling that supports, or even suggests, any future use of alcohol (sinning by drinking).

Yes, 1 and 2 are the same, if you believe that drinking alcohol is a sin.

ByHisLove

An alcoholic drinking alcohol.

Algorithm

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. Your husband probably knows, both theologically, and from personal experience, that the 12-Steps will not "work" for him. The desire will never be removed by G-d, since G-d knows that he is already perfectly capable of not drinking without personal divine intervention.

Your husband knows that the "Higher Power" cannot possibly be G-d, because G-d, as he understands him, does not do that. Phrased a little differently, his G-d is not in the business of removing the desire to sin in order to have people not sin (drink).

ByHisLove

I've been trying to understand what his feelings are about AA and I haven't been able to understand him the way that he was explaining it. After reading this, I now completely understand his perspective and his opinion that it is un-biblical.

hellrzr

ByHisLove, you really need to attend some Al-Anon meetings. You will get lots of help there.

Seems clear to me that your husband knows that AA works but simply doesn't want to stop drinking. Why would he? He doesn't seem to have any negative consequences from drinking. If I hadn't started to suffer consequences I wouldn't have stopped either. He knows the solution that works and will work again if he takes the action to follow the steps and get back into AA.

Not to be too blunt or too rude, but any thing he tells you is just an excuse and he's blowing smoke up your ass, as they say. He knows AA works and he simply doesn't want to work the program and wants to keep drinking. Attend some Al-Anon and things will become more clear to you. Good luck.

ByHisLove

Thanks for your response. I do understand that he's blowing smoke up my ass...I'm an alcoholic and addict myself. While he was going to AA he was reading the bible for several hours a night and that's what he says was keeping him sober. I don't think he actually even working the program, he was going mostly to make his mom happy because she had just found out he had been hiding his alcoholism from her for several years. (this was all before I met him)

I know these are still all excuses, but I can't make him do something he doesn't want to do of course, so I'm trying to encourage him in other ways.

I shared AVRT with him and surprisingly he says it's actually being helpful for him. He finally made it past the dreaded 3 day mark (his normal cycle is to drink every third day). I really like AVRT and as a Christian I think it fits in with my views quite easily.

He's also using a friend of his from church for daily accountability which is something he did on a 6 month streak a while back and it really helped. He is commiting to stay sober at least and to accept some kind of help, unlike before where he was just trying to act like it wasn't that big of a deal because he wanted to Keep drinking.

I still plan on going to Al-Anon and I'm working on it in counseling each week. I'm thankful that he's at least talking openly with me about it now and I'm hopeful for his recovery.

ScottFromWI

Those are some positive signs ByHisLove, both his 3 days of sobriety and his open conversation on the subject. Sounds like you are doing a lot of good things to help yourself as well - he's a lucky guy to have someone as supportive as you around to help.

ByHisLove

Thank you.