View Poll Results: Alcoholism is -- Disease? -- Sin? -- Other?
Disease?
59
40.41%
Sin?
7
4.79%
Other?
80
54.79%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll
Alcoholism -- Disease? -- or -- Sin? -- or -- Other?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Personally I think it's a little polarising to view Alcoholism as either a Sin or Disease.
Like asking what is a sandwich...Grilled Cheese or Pastrami...when there are plenty of options in between
Thankfully we all get to choose what goes in our sandwiches. ..long as we remember to eat
P
Like asking what is a sandwich...Grilled Cheese or Pastrami...when there are plenty of options in between
Thankfully we all get to choose what goes in our sandwiches. ..long as we remember to eat
P
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,950
As far as whether drunkenness is a sin, whether being drunk one time is a sin?
Do you think you become more or less like God when your consciousness is lowered, your inhibitions are lowered, your cognitive function is impaired, you are depressed (or in a manic state), your emotions are more intense, you are putting poison in your body and making yourself sick... just on and on... and then you think of the chronic abuser, the alcoholic, and the effects of their behavior on themselves and the people around them... Do you think it brings you CLOSER to God?
(If you don't believe in God, the answer is still no, it doesn't)
Do you think you become more or less like God when your consciousness is lowered, your inhibitions are lowered, your cognitive function is impaired, you are depressed (or in a manic state), your emotions are more intense, you are putting poison in your body and making yourself sick... just on and on... and then you think of the chronic abuser, the alcoholic, and the effects of their behavior on themselves and the people around them... Do you think it brings you CLOSER to God?
(If you don't believe in God, the answer is still no, it doesn't)
G-Woman
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mississauga, ON
Posts: 979
I'm not religious by any means, but when I was actively drinking I would behave in ways that didn't align with my own moral compass. I do struggle with how to come to terms with those behaviours - I know I wouldn't have done these things while sober, but I also don't want to absolve myself of accountability.
I guess obsessing over it isn't particularly productive. I know that drink = unethical behaviours, so avoid the drink. Simple formula for me at the moment.
I guess obsessing over it isn't particularly productive. I know that drink = unethical behaviours, so avoid the drink. Simple formula for me at the moment.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
My take on drunken behaviour and Morality. ..my compass got a little skewed too. Chronic drunkeness does that. So I became a person I wasn't, doi G things I didn't like and justified them.
I (in my opinion) was acutely ill, but wouldn't admit to this.
The same way people can become acutely unwell with a psychotic illness, and can do things while unwell that they wouldn't dream of ordinarily.
I believe I should have been responsible for repercussions of anything that happened while I was drinking. But now I don't beat myself up too much...I have repaired what I can and I have to remember...I was unwell.
I became responsible at the point where I came to understand and accepted what was wrong with me. I am responsible now for staying sober.
I was not and am not now aneed inherently bad person. But just like everyone else I have to take responsibility for my actions...drunk or sober.
If I stay sober I get my moral compass...and my conscience...back
P
I (in my opinion) was acutely ill, but wouldn't admit to this.
The same way people can become acutely unwell with a psychotic illness, and can do things while unwell that they wouldn't dream of ordinarily.
I believe I should have been responsible for repercussions of anything that happened while I was drinking. But now I don't beat myself up too much...I have repaired what I can and I have to remember...I was unwell.
I became responsible at the point where I came to understand and accepted what was wrong with me. I am responsible now for staying sober.
I was not and am not now aneed inherently bad person. But just like everyone else I have to take responsibility for my actions...drunk or sober.
If I stay sober I get my moral compass...and my conscience...back
P
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 174
starts as a sin and progresses to disease
I think alcoholism starts as a sin but once addiction takes hold it progreses into a disease. Being able to control it if you wanted to, but choosing to drink til passed out I think would be a sin. Wanting so badly not to drink and not being able to control it no matter how hard you try, I think would classify as a disease. I think after repetitive excessive use, something must happen in the brain to make it so difficult or impossible to control. If it's not a disease, I don't see why I'd choose to do something that's killing me.... And if neither, what else would it be?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,945
80% of physicians say it's not a disease don't know if this is true read it on the internet. Why is AA almost involved with every hospital then. What does the big book say Bill W ruthlessly faced his sins and never drank again it does say that. Me I'd say all three what other would be could be many things.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by dsmaxis10 
Bill W ruthlessly faced his sins
Then once again we repent.
It's done so very often that
at times I get dizzy.
MB
Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by JeffreyAK
Just an addiction, which is chemical dependency, which is changes in brain function and structure caused by drinking a lot of alcohol for a long time. There's nothing more to it, though people can add layers of complexity and labels if they like. I prefer to simplify instead.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Well, I'm watching my cousin who is a recent relapser.
This guy is committing a lot of different sickening sins.
Call them what you want but, they are listed in the bible as sins.
MB
This guy is committing a lot of different sickening sins.
Call them what you want but, they are listed in the bible as sins.
MB
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
I can't help thinking the polls are out on this one
I do lots of things everyday that can be construed as sins, from a particular viewpoint. I will never see alcoholism as a whole as Sin, or caused by sin. That of course is my own perspective.
I wonder what ongoing point you're trying to make here MMB?
P
I do lots of things everyday that can be construed as sins, from a particular viewpoint. I will never see alcoholism as a whole as Sin, or caused by sin. That of course is my own perspective.
I wonder what ongoing point you're trying to make here MMB?
P
Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Rupert ID
Posts: 469
I apologize if I am repeating someone else but I have not read through every single post, for lack of time.
IMHO, alcoholism is most certainly a disease, both physical and mental, but even as a mental illness, it's physical nature involves the still, mysterious chemistry of the brain. I love the phrase, "cunning and baffling" as it is perfect in describing that mystery of science we have yet to unlock.
As to sin, I can only answer from my own Christian, (Catholic), perspective, with any depth. While drunkenness is considered a sin, similar to gluttony, unhealthy excess, alcohol itself, is not prohibited.
For something to be a sin, it must involve something which is a grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. It's not a cop-out to say that real alcoholics, as any addicts, the idea of being able to give "deliberate consent" can be a mitigating circumstance to referring to their substance abuse as a sin. It's the same reason that people with other mental illnesses who act irrationally, (And certainly, continuing to drink for us, is irrational.), are not said to have committed a sin. That does not mean that one cannot commit sins as an alcoholic, but only that there are mitigating conditions that should discourage one from making blanket assessments of any sins involved. Give it over to God and let Him sort it out.
If anything, our alcoholism should teach us the importance to "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven".
This disease has certainly humbled me before God and made me, (I hope), less judgemental and much more compassionate to the sufferings of others.
IMHO, alcoholism is most certainly a disease, both physical and mental, but even as a mental illness, it's physical nature involves the still, mysterious chemistry of the brain. I love the phrase, "cunning and baffling" as it is perfect in describing that mystery of science we have yet to unlock.
As to sin, I can only answer from my own Christian, (Catholic), perspective, with any depth. While drunkenness is considered a sin, similar to gluttony, unhealthy excess, alcohol itself, is not prohibited.
For something to be a sin, it must involve something which is a grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. It's not a cop-out to say that real alcoholics, as any addicts, the idea of being able to give "deliberate consent" can be a mitigating circumstance to referring to their substance abuse as a sin. It's the same reason that people with other mental illnesses who act irrationally, (And certainly, continuing to drink for us, is irrational.), are not said to have committed a sin. That does not mean that one cannot commit sins as an alcoholic, but only that there are mitigating conditions that should discourage one from making blanket assessments of any sins involved. Give it over to God and let Him sort it out.
If anything, our alcoholism should teach us the importance to "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven".
This disease has certainly humbled me before God and made me, (I hope), less judgemental and much more compassionate to the sufferings of others.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by paulokes
I wonder what ongoing point you're trying to make here MMB?
P
I and a few others find this thread interesting.
If this poll was taken in my church the results would be different.
Not a big deal.
M-Bob
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: IL now
Posts: 218
I didn't read through the whole thread, but for me, it is a choice. Not a disease, not a sin per say, but a choice which is given to me. I didn't go the big book route, though I do go to a weekly meeting it is more for fellowship amongst those also in recovery. I went the AVRT route, and for me, alcohol is the monster that is trying to defeat me. I made the choice to fight the monster instead of continuing down the scary path it was taking me.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 86
Interesting thread, though I likewise haven't had time to read all the replies since there's quite a lot already, though I will share my opinion.
Alcoholism in my opinion is an addiction that progresses into medical territory in it's advanced stages. Initially alcohol use starts as something to turn to for comfort or a coping mechanism, whether it be loneliness, bereavement, feeling like a failure, difficult social situations and other things; self-medication. With repeated use, the lower brain learns to associate the situations in which it's used with drinking. The activities, people, times, places and people with which one drinks become 'conditionined triggers', cravings are triggered on exposure (the addiction phase). The learning process is called 'classical conditioning', anyone heard of Ivan Pavlov and his dogs?
Further down the line, as people to continue to drink, they build-up tolerance, need more to get the same effect until eventual they become physically dependent, (it's now a medical problem as well as a psychological one). Further still down, people then fall into a pattern known as 'relief drinking'; drinking to ward off withdrawal symptoms as opposed to feeling good or blocking out negative emotions. In my opinion, alcoholism is not a disease, but a combination of psychological addiction and physiological dependence.
Alcoholism in my opinion is an addiction that progresses into medical territory in it's advanced stages. Initially alcohol use starts as something to turn to for comfort or a coping mechanism, whether it be loneliness, bereavement, feeling like a failure, difficult social situations and other things; self-medication. With repeated use, the lower brain learns to associate the situations in which it's used with drinking. The activities, people, times, places and people with which one drinks become 'conditionined triggers', cravings are triggered on exposure (the addiction phase). The learning process is called 'classical conditioning', anyone heard of Ivan Pavlov and his dogs?
Further down the line, as people to continue to drink, they build-up tolerance, need more to get the same effect until eventual they become physically dependent, (it's now a medical problem as well as a psychological one). Further still down, people then fall into a pattern known as 'relief drinking'; drinking to ward off withdrawal symptoms as opposed to feeling good or blocking out negative emotions. In my opinion, alcoholism is not a disease, but a combination of psychological addiction and physiological dependence.
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