View Poll Results: Alcoholism is -- Disease? -- Sin? -- Other?
Disease?
59
40.41%
Sin?
7
4.79%
Other?
80
54.79%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll
Alcoholism -- Disease? -- or -- Sin? -- or -- Other?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
MMB I respect your right to see this however you see it. However I know very few people who see alcoholism as a Sin, or a problem caused by lack of Morality.
I'll temper that with a nod to M. Scott Peck in his excellent book "People of the Lie":
"...It is necessary to draw the distinction between evil and ordinary sin. It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people, rather it is the subtlety and persistence and consistency of their sins. This is because the central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it"
If I take a drink tomorrow, in some way or other I will be lying to myself, to those around me, to everything I believe and to that Power I myself choose to call God. That lie, that refusal to acknowledge the truth could well be called a Sin. But that my friend is just one man's opinion.
I heard an anecdote recently about Mental Health treatment, Asylums and the beginnings of what became known as Moral Treatment
The story goes that the Quaker William Tuke founded a refuge for the care of the mentally ill. Instead of locking them up, he gave them chores to do...allowed them to contribute and gain a sense of contributing to a burgeoning community. Many men recovered and were offered jobs as wardens in the institutions that used to hold them. This was a revolutionary idea and Tuke wrote a Treatise on his beliefs in French.
The story goes that somewhere along the way his work was mistranslated. ..the word "Morale", which had two meanings, was taken to mean that such labour raised the Moral capacity of these men which led to their recovery. The finer point that their Morale was raised had been lost until recent times.
This may be the truth, a false story, a misunderstanding in itself or an alternative take...Who's to Say?
The disease model is an interesting take and it helped me immensely. I always identified more though with a friend of mine who talked about the dis-ease of alcoholism...the insecurity, the discomfort, the fear...
Anyhoo...the one thing I am personally sure of is that I do not wish to drink. I don't think I can drink safely for reasons that will probably always be beyond my comprehension. Meanwhile I am glad to have found ways of dealing with the ups and downs of life without reverting to type, and turning to drink to solve problems that will always still be there tomorrow unless I learn to deal with them in an adult, emotionally mature fashion.
Long may that continue
P
I'll temper that with a nod to M. Scott Peck in his excellent book "People of the Lie":
"...It is necessary to draw the distinction between evil and ordinary sin. It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people, rather it is the subtlety and persistence and consistency of their sins. This is because the central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it"
If I take a drink tomorrow, in some way or other I will be lying to myself, to those around me, to everything I believe and to that Power I myself choose to call God. That lie, that refusal to acknowledge the truth could well be called a Sin. But that my friend is just one man's opinion.
I heard an anecdote recently about Mental Health treatment, Asylums and the beginnings of what became known as Moral Treatment
The story goes that the Quaker William Tuke founded a refuge for the care of the mentally ill. Instead of locking them up, he gave them chores to do...allowed them to contribute and gain a sense of contributing to a burgeoning community. Many men recovered and were offered jobs as wardens in the institutions that used to hold them. This was a revolutionary idea and Tuke wrote a Treatise on his beliefs in French.
The story goes that somewhere along the way his work was mistranslated. ..the word "Morale", which had two meanings, was taken to mean that such labour raised the Moral capacity of these men which led to their recovery. The finer point that their Morale was raised had been lost until recent times.
This may be the truth, a false story, a misunderstanding in itself or an alternative take...Who's to Say?
The disease model is an interesting take and it helped me immensely. I always identified more though with a friend of mine who talked about the dis-ease of alcoholism...the insecurity, the discomfort, the fear...
Anyhoo...the one thing I am personally sure of is that I do not wish to drink. I don't think I can drink safely for reasons that will probably always be beyond my comprehension. Meanwhile I am glad to have found ways of dealing with the ups and downs of life without reverting to type, and turning to drink to solve problems that will always still be there tomorrow unless I learn to deal with them in an adult, emotionally mature fashion.
Long may that continue
P
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
Posts: 6,561
I came out of a troubled early childhood, with a lot of separations and loss. When I got older, I had trouble coping with the real world. I had many fears, anxiety and other issues as a young man. Alcohol was medication for me.. a few drinks = problem solved. It worked for years.. until it didn't.
I believe most addicts use the addictive behavior to avoid reality or emotional pain in some way, at least at the beginning, until the addiction takes over. Gabor Mate explains this so well in 'In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts".
So I checked "other".
I believe most addicts use the addictive behavior to avoid reality or emotional pain in some way, at least at the beginning, until the addiction takes over. Gabor Mate explains this so well in 'In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts".
So I checked "other".
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 28,647
Sin
Disease
Allergy
Intolerance
Genetic
Conditioning from an alcoholic father
Sickness
All in the mind
Just a weak person
Because my life has been crap
The sky was the wrong colour.
To me it is probably a mix, barring sin. The actions of the alcoholic certainly can be though. Some say 'why do you need to know- you dink and screw up other people's lives as well as your own- just do not drink. Period.'
Yes true. I think for me it is good to understand myself and the effects of what alcohol does to me. Some at the end of the day the outcome is the same- I cannot drink. If it is a disease and I suffer from it, that still does not leave me to be able to excuse my behaviour when I was drinking. People with any other disease will fight tooth and nail to find a cure or at least have a safe, stable and productive life. K
Disease
Allergy
Intolerance
Genetic
Conditioning from an alcoholic father
Sickness
All in the mind
Just a weak person
Because my life has been crap
The sky was the wrong colour.
To me it is probably a mix, barring sin. The actions of the alcoholic certainly can be though. Some say 'why do you need to know- you dink and screw up other people's lives as well as your own- just do not drink. Period.'
Yes true. I think for me it is good to understand myself and the effects of what alcohol does to me. Some at the end of the day the outcome is the same- I cannot drink. If it is a disease and I suffer from it, that still does not leave me to be able to excuse my behaviour when I was drinking. People with any other disease will fight tooth and nail to find a cure or at least have a safe, stable and productive life. K
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by paulokes 
MMB I respect your right to see this however you see it. However I know very few people who see alcoholism as a Sin, or a problem caused by lack of Morality.
Thus, for me when I drink I'm sinning, putting God on the very back burner and booze in time becomes of most importance to me.
A nice sober day wished for all,
M-Bob
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hello Bob, I'm not familiar with the Bible, save for the moral code that my parents instilled in me. I'm interested in the distinction the Bible makes between an occasional drinker and a drunkard (I went from one to the other over a number of years).
I'm genuinely interested in this point. As I said before, drinking in excess, such that it affected my life and those around me, went against my inbuilt moral code.
I'm genuinely interested in this point. As I said before, drinking in excess, such that it affected my life and those around me, went against my inbuilt moral code.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by Tatsy
Hello Bob, I'm not familiar with the Bible, save for the moral code that my parents instilled in me. I'm interested in the distinction the Bible makes between an occasional drinker and a drunkard
verses that say moderate drinking is ok.
1 Timothy 5:23 ESV
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
1 Timothy 3:8 ESV
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
Genesis 27:28 ESV
May God give you of the dew of heaven and of the fatness of the earth and plenty of grain and wine.
Titus 2:3 ESV
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Ecclesiastes 9:7 ESV
Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
verses that say not to be a drunk
1 Corinthians 6:10 ESV
Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Isaiah 5:11 ESV
Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them!
1 Peter 4:3-4 ESV
For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you;
1 Peter 4:3 ESV
For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.
Have a nice sober day,
M-Bob
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
Originally Posted by ScottFromWI
I'm really not a fan of labels. There is something inherent to my being that makes it impossible for me to drink without negative consequences. I have accepted that and I have started living a lifestyle that allows me to be free of alcohol. I prefer to not have it be more complicated than that.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 16
I don't think it's a sin because I don't believe in the whole concept of God and sins. Of course, I know that AA was essentially founded on Christianity. That's why AA only works for five to 10 percent of people. That said, please don't take offence if you believe in God or AA. I could care less if other people are religious and am happy that AA helps some people. I don't think addiction is a disease either; however, I do believe that some people -- including me -- are biologically predisposed to getting addicted.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by TooMuchAlcohol
I don't think it's a sin because I don't believe in the whole concept of God and sins. Of course, I know that AA was essentially founded on Christianity. That's why AA only works for five to 10 percent of people. That said, please don't take offence if you believe in God or AA. I could care less if other people are religious and am happy that AA helps some people. I don't think addiction is a disease either; however, I do believe that some people -- including me -- are biologically predisposed to getting addicted.
Feel the need to say here AA does not view Alcoholism as a Sin or promote any particular line on this.
I attend regular AA meetings and know very very few people who take that line (maybe one or two from thousands).
I get where MMB is coming from. We still disagree bit that's OK
P
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: England
Posts: 2,675
'Other'. Sin isn't a concept that comes into my life at all. Never bought into the whole disease idea whilst I was in AA either.
Doug made a very good point about it being a tool, I second that. I view alcoholism as a coping mechanism that spiraled out of control.
Doug made a very good point about it being a tool, I second that. I view alcoholism as a coping mechanism that spiraled out of control.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Drink again and something worse may happen to me.
Originally Posted by OldTomato
Sin isn't a concept that comes into my life at all.
Never bought into the whole disease idea whilst I was in AA either.
After giving the subjects mentioned some thought on this Sunday morning regarding -- disease -- some diseases as we know we bring on ourselves. To much smoking may cause lung cancer. Too much sugar may bring on diabetes. In my case possibly too much drinking especially at an early age may have brought on the disease of alcoholism?
Not sure how I caught it -- but -- I got it.
Now knowing that I have it if I keep on drinking (sinning)
as the bible says -- something worse may happen to me.
This has been proven over and over again in my life.
Spending some time sober -- all goes well -- return to the booze -- a living hell.
A nice sober day wished for all,
M-Bob
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,359
The doctor called my smoking tobacco abuse disorder. I look at drinking the same way. I personally don't go in for the sin thing; I think our minds become programmed to behave in destructive ways. I think as humans we are all eligible to be tricked and frighteningly easily too. For some of us the conditioning may have been going on longer. That's not to say I disagree with a person being responsible for their behavior I just wouldn't refer to it as a moral failing.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
I'm not a Christian, but if I were, then drinking to excess and ruining my life would definitely fall under the sin category! I can't see how any Christian who has studied the Bible could feel otherwise, but to each his own.
I do personally believe that drinking the way I did and and causing so much harm to myself and those that I love was a moral failing on my part. It did not fit into the way I wanted to live my life, parent, perform at my chosen career, and have meaningful and engaging relationships with others. Because it is clear to me how I want to live, doing anything that compromises that is a moral failing for me. I fall short often in many ways, and it is a continual process on the smaller habits that can hinder me...but on drinking...that's a giant one and there is no negotiation.
and I def don't believe in the disease concept.
I do personally believe that drinking the way I did and and causing so much harm to myself and those that I love was a moral failing on my part. It did not fit into the way I wanted to live my life, parent, perform at my chosen career, and have meaningful and engaging relationships with others. Because it is clear to me how I want to live, doing anything that compromises that is a moral failing for me. I fall short often in many ways, and it is a continual process on the smaller habits that can hinder me...but on drinking...that's a giant one and there is no negotiation.
and I def don't believe in the disease concept.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I believe in the biological models of addiction so based on that, I think what I believe fits the disease concept. Sin does not click well with me here, even though what we tend to do as active alcoholics can without doubt be considered immoral, but I don't think those acts are simply due to errors of judgment or deliberate acts that can be evaluated based on codes of ethics or could be avoided easily, they occur within a condition that cannot be considered healthy or normal. So I think that alcoholism is a complex condition of body, mind and spirit that is not easy to categorize under the same umbrella terms where we can easily put, say, heart problems or stealing form others.
Friendly Folk
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Powers Lake, Wisconsin
Posts: 21,705
To me, personally it is an escape. One glass of wine feels good and a bottle even better. Then I can't stop because my brain wants to feel good all the time. I have issues about always wanting to be perfect and full of ideas and inspiration. Alcohol covers up my insecurities and self doubts.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Aellyce
but I don't think those acts are simply due to errors of judgment or deliberate acts that can be evaluated based on codes of ethics or could be avoided easily, they occur within a condition that cannot be considered healthy or normal.
I love what a former member used to say(I'm paraphrasing here):
If alcoholism is a disease, and drinking is causing you problems, you'd better quit drinking.
If alcoholism is not a disease, and drinking is causing you problems, you'd better quit drinking.
The bottom line is that, disease or not, it is the individual's actions of drinking alcohol that cause the problem, and only the individual can stop the problem.
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