Famous/Successful People who were raging alcoholics
Artists are often accused of being self indulgent, narcissistic- self important- and yet there are entire museums and bodies of work, tv shows, films, novels, libraries... imparting insights, humor, heartache and experiences that have given so, so much to so many. And that stand for time- everyone has a favorite book, a song that will always be a part of them, their life. How dreary a world it would be without any of it, if artists were more concerned with decor than their work.
If you want to explore your depression a get responses to it, why not start your own thread?
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Well, for one it is a pretty condemning blanket statement and stereotype.
I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important?
Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time.
I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world.
Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits.
Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME
Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism.
It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me.
I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts.
Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy.
Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important?
Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time.
I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world.
Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits.
Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME
Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism.
It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me.
I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts.
Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy.
Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
Well, for one it is a pretty condemning blanket statement and stereotype. I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important? Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time. I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world. Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits. Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism. It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me. I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts. Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy. Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
But, in order for art to be created, a degree of self focus and narcissism is almost a necessity. Artists aren't pure, nor do they get a free ride while some some other group labeled "the real" narcissists.
Well, for one it is a pretty condemning blanket statement and stereotype. I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important? Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time. I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world. Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits. Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism. It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me. I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts. Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy. Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Although, if you have discerned that I said somewhere that anyone gets a "free ride" - I did not say that. Though I do have to laugh- artists are so condemned here. In other countries, they are actually valued. But, corporate America is what it is. Artist certainly are not getting a "free ride" of any kind. It's pretty well known that arts are seen as superfluous at best- always the first thing to be cut from school's programs. Very condemned, very looked down upon. I certainly made no mention of pure, either. But it sounds like some projection may be at play here?
Project upon a canvas... only good can come of it. I have faith in very little, but in this I have do have faith.
Project upon a canvas... only good can come of it. I have faith in very little, but in this I have do have faith.
Although, if you have discerned that I said somewhere that anyone gets a "free ride" - I did not say that. Though I do have to laugh- artists are so condemned here. In other countries, they are actually valued. But, corporate America is what it is. Artist certainly are not getting a "free ride" of any kind. It's pretty well known that arts are seen as superfluous at best- always the first thing to be cut from school's programs. Very condemned, very looked down upon. I certainly made no mention of pure, either. But it sounds like some projection may be at play here? Project upon a canvas... only good can come of it. I have faith in very little, but in this I have do have faith.
I'd like to echo what one previous poster said about Steven King. I like his earlier work, but have not read anything he wrote after the 1980's. Can any fans of his work comment on the comparison between his earlier work ( when he was drinking and using) and his later stuff (post- sobriety)?
As far as music goes, can anyone think of an artist who wrote their best work after attaining sobriety?
As far as music goes, can anyone think of an artist who wrote their best work after attaining sobriety?
In regards to all the high profile writers and artist, I am curious if the isolation, as well as their writing and art performance, contribute to their alcoholism, substance abuse.
Also curious if some of it is due because they draw so much from themselves and give so much of themselves.
The artists, actors & writers are well represented for alcohol & substance abuse.
Also curious if some of it is due because they draw so much from themselves and give so much of themselves.
The artists, actors & writers are well represented for alcohol & substance abuse.
I've only had a very small taste of what it is like to be a performing musician and we were just sort of regional (3 states). Did many festivals, two radio shows, featured on TV; in the newspaper three times. If we wanted to make more of it we could have; definitely. We were being asked to perform for all sorts of events and couldn't do them all...
BUT...what I saw and experienced was that performing like that; traveling to various places was a breeding ground for turning to substances. I couldn't sleep very well when we traveled and when my sleep gets messed up it's just not good.
I remember one weekend we had a performance in one state and the next day a performance in another state. I was completely sapped by Sunday night!!
What I also came to know was that there were a number of musicians who I could tell were under the influence of something.
I really love the music and the fans and everything, but man it's not as easy as it would seem and there are pitfalls.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,614
Sorry, can't cop to saying something I didn't. I never, ever said anything about artist's getting any kind of "free ride".
And, as the study indicates... that's just back up for what I was saying.
But if you base what you like or don't like upon the person who created it... well you are going to end up liking not much of anything, cause there are very few saints in this world.
I rather like things that are imperfect, have a few scars. Makes them real.
A teacher told me years ago some very good advice- "If you like someone's work, don't read about them".
I am not disappointed by the imperfections of those who's work I admire.
And, as the study indicates... that's just back up for what I was saying.
But if you base what you like or don't like upon the person who created it... well you are going to end up liking not much of anything, cause there are very few saints in this world.
I rather like things that are imperfect, have a few scars. Makes them real.
A teacher told me years ago some very good advice- "If you like someone's work, don't read about them".
I am not disappointed by the imperfections of those who's work I admire.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,614
This thread has actually inspired me to make some of my own work a little... something that has been eluding me with sobriety... I have 1/2 done canvases around.
Thanks for getting me to defend myself a little today
Got me thinking too, which my tired, benzo and booze abused brain is usually to sad and fatigued to do of late....
I think I'll draw something.
Thanks for getting me to defend myself a little today
Got me thinking too, which my tired, benzo and booze abused brain is usually to sad and fatigued to do of late....
I think I'll draw something.
No GnikNus I was not directing my Michaelangelo post towards you. I used Michaelangelo as my generic artist (sorry Mike), because could not help but notice that when I posted of my depression, I was completely "scrolled over", with discussion moving directly back to *Art*.
As a recovery site supposedly offering support, I thought that another's member's struggle with depression would have been acknowledged, but it was not, and I lost a bit of faith in the whole dealeo.
It really doesn't matter all that much, and don't even know why I'm posting, outside of not wanting you to feel that I had taken exception to you in particular. I was not.
Maybe I'm just a sensitive artist And really, it doesn't matter.
As a recovery site supposedly offering support, I thought that another's member's struggle with depression would have been acknowledged, but it was not, and I lost a bit of faith in the whole dealeo.
It really doesn't matter all that much, and don't even know why I'm posting, outside of not wanting you to feel that I had taken exception to you in particular. I was not.
Maybe I'm just a sensitive artist And really, it doesn't matter.
Hi Steely
I'm sorry if you felt ignored.
If you ever feel you need support and and feel you're not getting it, I recommend you post in a few places, or start your own thread.
It doesn't hurt to be direct - just tell us what you need
I know that you did post in a few places yesterday, and I'm glad that ultimately you did get some support
D
I'm sorry if you felt ignored.
If you ever feel you need support and and feel you're not getting it, I recommend you post in a few places, or start your own thread.
It doesn't hurt to be direct - just tell us what you need
I know that you did post in a few places yesterday, and I'm glad that ultimately you did get some support
D
Well, for one it is a pretty condemning blanket statement and stereotype.
I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important?
Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time.
I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world.
Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits.
Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME
Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism.
It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me.
I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts.
Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy.
Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important?
Artists are narcissist for taking what they do seriously? There are entire museums, libraries full of these "self important" works. Why? Because it is a reflection of humanity. What we really are at a point in time.
I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world.
Take a look at The Great British Psychopath Survey for instance. Kevin Dutton, a psychologist, conducted a large survey and basically boiled things down to careers with the most and careers with the least psychopathic traits.
Here is a link to the lists:Which Professions Have the Most Psychopaths? The Fewest? | TIME
Interestingly, "creative artist", specifically, is on the list of "least psychopathic. Psychopathy goes hand in hand with narcissism.
It seems to me, the actual opposite is true- one must possess an abundance of sensitivity and understanding to engage in truly creative acts- this is what separates "creativity" from merely creating, to me.
I believe that often, the hours required to practice, hone a skill, the solitude necessary to really become good at a thing- is mistakenly interpreted as self importance. No other category of skill is quite lambasted for this as the arts.
Sometimes I wonder if it is just garden variety jealousy.
Anyway, would like to say more but my thoughts are slow and I am sleep deprived. I am clumsily trying to explain a thing here.
I'll also add for those who don't understand....For me, art is an extension of communication. Simple as that. Some of us get paid very well to show people how we do it.
The best way i can explain how pure that statement is to me, is to tell you a story about my autistic nephew. The kid could barely talk. You could see the frustration in his spirit and the tense body language he exhibited when ever he couldn't get out what he wanted to say.
They put a paintbrush in his hand and it was like opening a new set of eyes for him. There was no ego or self importance. there was only "holy s#it!!" i understand this language, and I've got some s#it to say!
That's all it ever was for me. When i was painting, it was an extension of my emotions, something i needed to say in a different way.
I chose to hone those skills and get paid for them because it was something i loved to do. that's very uncomplicated, and really, an answer a lot of famous musicians, actors, poets, and painters will give you. it's the rest of the population that seems to choose to try to pick it apart and give it sometimes laughable complication as truth.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
This thread has turned into quite an interesting discussion Something else I thought of, I think many artists struggle with this, at least before they establish themselves and reach a level of recognition that they are able to make living purely from their art work. The artist has to have a day job, often something totally unrelated to their passion and one they don't enjoy, but it is necessary to get a pay check. And do art outside of those work hours. I don't have personal experience with this but have met many people over time who do and it's easy to understand how such a lifestyle can be a struggle, affect motivation to do creative work, and lead to frustration and depression. In a way, it's like living "someone else's life" in a significant portion of time.
The experience that comes closest to it from my own life is when I was young and in school. I never liked being in school, which in a way is weird, because I love learning and exploring things. But I like to do it in my own terms and on a schedule that I set and manage. Having to go to school everyday and having to study/do what I was told, then being tested etc etc was something I did not enjoy at all even though I had always been a good student. College and grad school was of course an entirely different experience as there I could choose what to focus on to a large extent and it wasn't on an strictly set schedule everyday. Then later in my career (I'm a scientist), I never had a single 9-5 job or one where I did not have a very high level of autonomy to manage my time (of course self-management became detrimental when I was drinking but that's another discussion). I also habitually turn down offers and positions where my responsibilities would become such that I would have too many meetings and would have to adapt to external things beyond what I like. Some people see this as avoiding commitment, and there is some truth in that... but it's not really the commitment I avoid, I am usually very loyal to the work, workplace and colleagues I like (at least at this point of my life), when it's my choice. It is a dislike of rigid structure, especially when controlled by others too much. I definitely would not survive in the corporate world for a year, I think.
I have always admired artists who are able to push through that struggle of having to maintain jobs that pay the bills and still invest a lot of time and energy into developing their art. That, in my mind, takes some serious discipline and perseverance, especially if they tend to get depressed about using other means as the source of income.
The experience that comes closest to it from my own life is when I was young and in school. I never liked being in school, which in a way is weird, because I love learning and exploring things. But I like to do it in my own terms and on a schedule that I set and manage. Having to go to school everyday and having to study/do what I was told, then being tested etc etc was something I did not enjoy at all even though I had always been a good student. College and grad school was of course an entirely different experience as there I could choose what to focus on to a large extent and it wasn't on an strictly set schedule everyday. Then later in my career (I'm a scientist), I never had a single 9-5 job or one where I did not have a very high level of autonomy to manage my time (of course self-management became detrimental when I was drinking but that's another discussion). I also habitually turn down offers and positions where my responsibilities would become such that I would have too many meetings and would have to adapt to external things beyond what I like. Some people see this as avoiding commitment, and there is some truth in that... but it's not really the commitment I avoid, I am usually very loyal to the work, workplace and colleagues I like (at least at this point of my life), when it's my choice. It is a dislike of rigid structure, especially when controlled by others too much. I definitely would not survive in the corporate world for a year, I think.
I have always admired artists who are able to push through that struggle of having to maintain jobs that pay the bills and still invest a lot of time and energy into developing their art. That, in my mind, takes some serious discipline and perseverance, especially if they tend to get depressed about using other means as the source of income.
I used to be a full-time poet, studied it, lived it, etc. but found what sleepie said to be true as well.
People thought I was being "self-indulgent" to take time and space necessary to be good at what I did.
It wasn't a "real job" so that somehow made what I did "all about me".
Instead, in hindsight, I think the real truth is that the world itself is "all about money" and "all about status" and "all about personal beauty".
I found the judgement and scorn in part envy of not choosing to be compliant and "ordinary" enough to fit in, and part genuine puzzlement about why anyone
would think writing poems was a legitimate contribution to society.
Artists are non-supported and disrespected greatly, with few exceptions, and I'm sure that doesn't help the urge to drink for many.
You cannot unsee what you've learned to see, and it can be very painful to live in a world that has little use for Beauty, and generally poor judgement about what it is.
Anyway, my two ex-artistic (s)cent(se)s
People thought I was being "self-indulgent" to take time and space necessary to be good at what I did.
It wasn't a "real job" so that somehow made what I did "all about me".
Instead, in hindsight, I think the real truth is that the world itself is "all about money" and "all about status" and "all about personal beauty".
I found the judgement and scorn in part envy of not choosing to be compliant and "ordinary" enough to fit in, and part genuine puzzlement about why anyone
would think writing poems was a legitimate contribution to society.
Artists are non-supported and disrespected greatly, with few exceptions, and I'm sure that doesn't help the urge to drink for many.
You cannot unsee what you've learned to see, and it can be very painful to live in a world that has little use for Beauty, and generally poor judgement about what it is.
Anyway, my two ex-artistic (s)cent(se)s
His last album is fantastic. It's been on constant rotation for me this year.
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