Feeling Brainwashed
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Feeling Brainwashed
Hello,
I am looking for some advice regarding AA and brainwashing. I am currently 19 months sober and a very active member of AA. I have a sponsor, home group, have been to over 500 meetings and have worked the steps twice.
Lately I have been suffering from extreme depression/anxiety and am starting to think that AA could have created some of this. I feel extremely powerless and fearful. I feel as though I cannot do anything in life anymore other than work and meetings. I am afraid to travel, venture far from my network, see old friends, be around alcohol etc. I feel imprisoned in sobriety because my brain has been trained to believe if I don't do/do certain things I will drink and die.
When I talk to people in AA about this they just say I need to pray, work steps, help newcomers etc. but I am thinking that I need to distance myself a bit and gain back some self empowerment and confidence. I didn't feel powerless or think my life was totally unmanageable while drinking or in early sobriety but I do now because of all of these emotions. Maybe it is because I had a fairly high bottom?
Can anyone relate or share some experience?
Thank you
I am looking for some advice regarding AA and brainwashing. I am currently 19 months sober and a very active member of AA. I have a sponsor, home group, have been to over 500 meetings and have worked the steps twice.
Lately I have been suffering from extreme depression/anxiety and am starting to think that AA could have created some of this. I feel extremely powerless and fearful. I feel as though I cannot do anything in life anymore other than work and meetings. I am afraid to travel, venture far from my network, see old friends, be around alcohol etc. I feel imprisoned in sobriety because my brain has been trained to believe if I don't do/do certain things I will drink and die.
When I talk to people in AA about this they just say I need to pray, work steps, help newcomers etc. but I am thinking that I need to distance myself a bit and gain back some self empowerment and confidence. I didn't feel powerless or think my life was totally unmanageable while drinking or in early sobriety but I do now because of all of these emotions. Maybe it is because I had a fairly high bottom?
Can anyone relate or share some experience?
Thank you
Still I rise.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oh Canada!
Posts: 1,121
If someone told me to pray because of my anxiety and depression, I would be really offended--not to mention, it won't alleviate your mental distress.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
Do you have other support group options? Smart, SOS, lifering, etc.? Might be a good time to check out alternatives, if you think the group you're in now isn't working out. Also, AA groups can be quite different from one another, so if that's all there is, maybe try a different meeting group?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Poconos PA
Posts: 1,544
I like many before me got sober without the help of AA. I never felt comfortable with their idea of what it takes to be sober. Most of us likely need some form of help outside of ourselves and for many people AA works well for them. For me, I went to a psychologist for about 6 months and the support helped me break the habit. But I remember repeatedly telling him when he would suggest group support that I didn't want my life to continue revolving around alcohol. From my point of view, attending a group several times a week is like being a dry drunk. I didn't want my mind to keep thinking about alcohol by talking about it every day at meetings. I wanted to be where I am today which is never having to think about alcohol again on a daily basis. Coming to this forum is the only time I think about it and it helps to keep me grounded just enough without feeling as if the support has become detrimental. It is of course all about personal decisions in life and I know some people will disagree with me. All I can say is almost four years later even without groups I haven't drank a drop. Just food for thought.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,439
Hi French
If you think you might be depressed or over anxious seeing a Dr is the right way to go.
Recovery for me means the virtual absence of that fear and anxiety...maybe you're misunderstanding what people are saying...or maybe you need to speak to different people?
I know you'll get good advice here
D
If you think you might be depressed or over anxious seeing a Dr is the right way to go.
Recovery for me means the virtual absence of that fear and anxiety...maybe you're misunderstanding what people are saying...or maybe you need to speak to different people?
I know you'll get good advice here
D
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK 
Do you have other support group options? Smart, SOS, lifering, etc.? Might be a good time to check out alternatives, if you think the group you're in now isn't working out. Also, AA groups can be quite different from one another, so if that's all there is, maybe try a different meeting group?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by Sudz No More
I like many before me got sober without the help of AA. I never felt comfortable with their idea of what it takes to be sober. Most of us likely need some form of help outside of ourselves and for many people AA works well for them. For me, I went to a psychologist for about 6 months and the support helped me break the habit. But I remember repeatedly telling him when he would suggest group support that I didn't want my life to continue revolving around alcohol. From my point of view, attending a group several times a week is like being a dry drunk. I didn't want my mind to keep thinking about alcohol by talking about it every day at meetings. I wanted to be where I am today which is never having to think about alcohol again on a daily basis. Coming to this forum is the only time I think about it and it helps to keep me grounded just enough without feeling as if the support has become detrimental. It is of course all about personal decisions in life and I know will disagree with me. All I can say is almost four years later even without groups I haven't drank a drop. Just food for thought.
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by RevivingOphelia
If someone told me to pray because of my anxiety and depression, I would be really offended--not to mention, it won't alleviate your mental distress.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I can understand that a mantra of fear, powerlessness and an unmanageable life could contribute to anxiety. Feelings of fear and uncertainty are obviously a big part of anxiety. Ego and a strong sense of self and direction can be positive internal forces. They certainly helped me out of my alcoholism. And I am yet another resolutely and contentedly sober without any more than a single step.
Maybe it would be a good idea to look outside of your meetings, talk to your doctor or a therapist, trained professionals who are good at this stuff.
Here's a thing for you to consider. You, French123, are going to be OK. It is all going to work out for you. Follow your instincts and do the next thing. It's up to you.
Maybe it would be a good idea to look outside of your meetings, talk to your doctor or a therapist, trained professionals who are good at this stuff.
Here's a thing for you to consider. You, French123, are going to be OK. It is all going to work out for you. Follow your instincts and do the next thing. It's up to you.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Sounds like AA has helped you stay sober for a year and a half. You've done the steps. Your good. No need to attend meetings if you think they are not beneficial right now. Get some treatment for the anxiety and depression. See a mental health professional. It sounds like that's where your focus should be.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Originally Posted by French123
Thank you for the advice. I know there are people out there that get sober without AA but I just don't know any because my entire life revolves around AA at this point. I think I need balance. This black and white thinking is really hurting me. I want to feel like I am sober because I want it and I am doing it; not because of AA scare tactics and fear.
The one sentence that rung a little alarm bell for me though was the one about wanting to feel like you're sober because you want it. Are you saying that you don't feel like you want sobriety any more. If so, it might be worth rereading your step 1 and / or some of your older posts on here if you came to SR early on. Just to remind you of YOUR reasons that you wanted sobriety. It's easy to forget quite how painful our active alcoholic lives were after we've had a chunk of freedom.
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French, glad youre posting youre concerns. what im reading is a LOT of peoples opinions as apposed to THE program.
heres a quote of yours from above:
"but I just don't know any because my entire life revolves around AA at this point."
heres one part of what the big book says
None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe.
I live my life with the principles THE program has taught me.
but my life does not revolve around AA.
meeting makers make meetings.
meeting makers that have to make X meetings a week or else aren't working THE program and are living a fear based program.
our dependency, as THE program say, must be on a higher power, which that higher power isn't a meeting or other people.
THE program says outside help may be needed.
the scare tactics are from the members of AA, not THE program. let those members whirl. or ask them where in the big book they get their information from.
I was also thrown a lot of fear crap early on. pretty dam glad old joe started comin to meetings and askin me afterwards," im not sure where that is in the big book. can ya point it out to me?"
made me realize I wasn't truly taught THE program and was living pretty fearfully with no balance.
heres a quote of yours from above:
"but I just don't know any because my entire life revolves around AA at this point."
heres one part of what the big book says
None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe.
I live my life with the principles THE program has taught me.
but my life does not revolve around AA.
meeting makers make meetings.
meeting makers that have to make X meetings a week or else aren't working THE program and are living a fear based program.
our dependency, as THE program say, must be on a higher power, which that higher power isn't a meeting or other people.
THE program says outside help may be needed.
the scare tactics are from the members of AA, not THE program. let those members whirl. or ask them where in the big book they get their information from.
I was also thrown a lot of fear crap early on. pretty dam glad old joe started comin to meetings and askin me afterwards," im not sure where that is in the big book. can ya point it out to me?"
made me realize I wasn't truly taught THE program and was living pretty fearfully with no balance.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
i can understand where your coming from. I myself feel very boxed in by my routine. I feel as if what i do works it keeps me on the staright and narrow happy and healthy. that being said i get anxious when need to change things up its a big undertaking at times to knock down the mental walls I've built up.
I'm ok with it in my case to some degree becasue its effective and it works and i'm not unhappy with how things are per say.
I also felt AA or that sorta thing would have been brain washing early on in sobriety. I see how some parrot various things and I thought yeah ya know I dont want to be brainwashed so it was one reason I stayed away from those types earlier on in sobriety.
But the thing is what i needed was a brain washing. I mean really my mind and my thoughts where toxic. I needed a good cleanse. I needed to start focusing on things from a different persepctive. one that AA might have helped me out with earlier on.
So to some degree a brain washing isnt always a bad thing. But you dont want to be trapped by the confines of your routine really eiether you gotta be able to branch out with out great anxiety and fear of screwing up etc.. At the same time you have to ask yourself do i need too? is what i'm donig not workign do i wanna change things?
One thing many alcoholics are not good at is moderation. I know for me i cant moderate anything in my life. its always all or nothing. So I realize this is just how I'm wired and I try to use it to my advantage rather then fight it too much and become something I'm not (a moderate indivdual with things). Thats just me. Others might tell you how you should try to moderate everyting in life but just never with the drink. I'm not sure the best approach.
I'm ok with it in my case to some degree becasue its effective and it works and i'm not unhappy with how things are per say.
I also felt AA or that sorta thing would have been brain washing early on in sobriety. I see how some parrot various things and I thought yeah ya know I dont want to be brainwashed so it was one reason I stayed away from those types earlier on in sobriety.
But the thing is what i needed was a brain washing. I mean really my mind and my thoughts where toxic. I needed a good cleanse. I needed to start focusing on things from a different persepctive. one that AA might have helped me out with earlier on.
So to some degree a brain washing isnt always a bad thing. But you dont want to be trapped by the confines of your routine really eiether you gotta be able to branch out with out great anxiety and fear of screwing up etc.. At the same time you have to ask yourself do i need too? is what i'm donig not workign do i wanna change things?
One thing many alcoholics are not good at is moderation. I know for me i cant moderate anything in my life. its always all or nothing. So I realize this is just how I'm wired and I try to use it to my advantage rather then fight it too much and become something I'm not (a moderate indivdual with things). Thats just me. Others might tell you how you should try to moderate everyting in life but just never with the drink. I'm not sure the best approach.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by French123
....When I talk to people in AA about this they just say I need to pray, work steps, help newcomers etc. but I am thinking that I need to distance myself a bit and gain back some self empowerment and confidence.....Can anyone relate or share some experience?
Thank you
Thank you
Nothing wrong with seeking outside advise/help. Sometimes you can get so wrapped up in the AA program/fellowship that you can't think straight.
About ten years ago I needed a break from meetings. I still went maybe once or twice a month. However, I needed to start taking positive action and makes some changes. Forget the fellowship. Forget the AA platitudes. Nobody could have helped me even if they wanted. I had to do the footwork. Its easy to hide in AA instead of tossing your hat into the ring of life and participating.
Imo, the best way to grow in AA (or anywhere else for that matter...) is to face what is bothering you and move forward.
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Originally Posted by RevivingOphelia
If someone told me to pray because of my anxiety and depression, I would be really offended--not to mention, it won't alleviate your mental distress.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
The entire tenet of AA is one of enforcing a sense of powerlessness (hence my disdain for this program in a world where women are largely powerless to begin with...not saying you are a woman; this is my personal criticism). I completely understand where you are coming from and why you think AA may be connected to your mental health issues. Whether or not it actually is, I would not know but I GET WHY you may have made that connection. Those 8 steps would do a number on me too.
I probably will be in the minority, but I agree with stepping back until you gain some footing and maybe begin talking to a therapist who is actually professionally trained to help you in finding some relief for your anxiety and depression.
Best to you.
The ONE thing that AA teaches us- that we accept - is that we are powerless over alcohol. The rest, IMO and IME, is about empowerment through a spiritual recovery and entirely new way of living. We can debate the HP concept til Kingdom come (ha) yet the fact of the matter is that AA is a recovery program. It is a concept, and a way of living - not just "not drinking," when lived in its best form.
For me- and so many others- AA is the opposite of what is described in the OP and here- it is ultimately freeing.
IMO and IME, again, the mental struggles so many of us have- anxiety and depression, for example- co-exist with our alcoholism. Those are not (best) treated, per se, by AA but with drs' help. I certainly consider my therapist and my rx regimen a key part of my sober life, along with a very strong AA program.
I wish you the best.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 197
When they say in AA "focus on the similarities," I understand that to mean take what you can from it and don't get too worried about the rest. 19 months is awesome and AA has probably been a help in that, but maybe take the positive aspects of it (i.e. your home group) and relieve yourself from the rest
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by lovetolisten
When they say in AA "focus on the similarities," I understand that to mean take what you can from it and don't get too worried about the rest. 19 months is awesome and AA has probably been a help in that, but maybe take the positive aspects of it (i.e. your home group) and relieve yourself from the rest
Still I rise.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oh Canada!
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by August252015
Yikes. YIKES.
The ONE thing that AA teaches us- that we accept - is that we are powerless over alcohol. The rest, IMO and IME, is about empowerment through a spiritual recovery and entirely new way of living. We can debate the HP concept til Kingdom come (ha) yet the fact of the matter is that AA is a recovery program. It is a concept, and a way of living - not just "not drinking," when lived in its best form.
For me- and so many others- AA is the opposite of what is described in the OP and here- it is ultimately freeing.
IMO and IME, again, the mental struggles so many of us have- anxiety and depression, for example- co-exist with our alcoholism. Those are not (best) treated, per se, by AA but with drs' help. I certainly consider my therapist and my rx regimen a key part of my sober life, along with a very strong AA program.
I wish you the best.
The ONE thing that AA teaches us- that we accept - is that we are powerless over alcohol. The rest, IMO and IME, is about empowerment through a spiritual recovery and entirely new way of living. We can debate the HP concept til Kingdom come (ha) yet the fact of the matter is that AA is a recovery program. It is a concept, and a way of living - not just "not drinking," when lived in its best form.
For me- and so many others- AA is the opposite of what is described in the OP and here- it is ultimately freeing.
IMO and IME, again, the mental struggles so many of us have- anxiety and depression, for example- co-exist with our alcoholism. Those are not (best) treated, per se, by AA but with drs' help. I certainly consider my therapist and my rx regimen a key part of my sober life, along with a very strong AA program.
I wish you the best.
In my opinion, suggesting prayer (which the OP said was happening) for someone who is struggling with mental health issues is not sound (its equivalent being 'just pray about it' if you struggling with a physical illness--not effective advice), and the notion of powerlessness that is embedded in the foundation of AA is not for some and has been particularly unhelpful for many people--in particular, women.
The post was entitled "Feeling Brainwashed" in addition to their concern of feeling "powerless and fearful" -- the group-think of this organization is actually very off-putting to me and I think the OP should step away from it (my opinion). I also view your reactionary post and the hyperbolic "Yikes, YIKES!" that prefaces your message as further evidence that supports my criticisms of AA.
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Not wanting to speak for Scott, but I'm satisfied that all the responses so far have been well meaning and seek to help.
Lets keep the focus on the OP.
Personal discussions are probably best left to PM.
Everyone has the wherewithal to use the ignore function on other posters
If you see a problem report it to us immediately by using the report button on the offending post
and let us review the problem and take the appropriate actions - thanks
Dee
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SR
Lets keep the focus on the OP.
Personal discussions are probably best left to PM.
Everyone has the wherewithal to use the ignore function on other posters
Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option on the drop down menu under their name on the post. You won't see any posts from this member again.
If you see a problem report it to us immediately by using the report button on the offending post
and let us review the problem and take the appropriate actions - thanks Dee
Moderator
SR
Last edited by Dee74; 10-25-2016 at 10:42 PM.
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