The Ultimate Trigger
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,960
We just lost a 29 year old who was about to celebrate one year of sobriety. Life moved too fast for him in "recovery" and he let his alcoholism grab him hard. He left behind a fiance and a 3 year old daughter.
So sorry about your loss.
So sorry about your loss.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
Originally Posted by Boleo 
I am not saying "We must suffer to get well" (although it is one of the 4 paradox's mentioned in "The Professor and the Paradox" story from the Big Book 2nd Edition). When I used the word "TOO" in too much", I was using it as defined in a dictionary;
to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible; excessively.
We often talk about balance or maintaining a "right sized ego" in recovery. I have to admit that when I first saw people brag about how well they were doing in recovery, I applauded them. However, after seeing several of them relapse shortly after their "Mission Accomplished" proclamations, I started thinking to myself "Oh No - there goes the neighborhood". Many old-timers warned me of the same thing... "To much speed makes the train bounce off the track".
I know a lot of you here think that I am jumping to conclusions. I myself would have taken your side before I saw it happen with my own eyes several times in row. However, pattern recognition is something I was trained to look for in both my science classes and my Quality Control jobs. It takes long-term experience to recognize patterns that only occur once or twice a year.
I have thought long and hard about leaving ALL recovery fellowships due to too much negative feedback from short-sighted people and nay-sayers who think my caveats are superfluous. The #1 thing that keeps me connected with recovery groups is to gain more ability to recognize and avoid traps that I do not YET know about. Somethings can simply never be discerned without many years of honest fellowship sharing and hundreds of iterations of pattern recognition.
to a higher degree than is desirable, permissible, or possible; excessively.
We often talk about balance or maintaining a "right sized ego" in recovery. I have to admit that when I first saw people brag about how well they were doing in recovery, I applauded them. However, after seeing several of them relapse shortly after their "Mission Accomplished" proclamations, I started thinking to myself "Oh No - there goes the neighborhood". Many old-timers warned me of the same thing... "To much speed makes the train bounce off the track".
I know a lot of you here think that I am jumping to conclusions. I myself would have taken your side before I saw it happen with my own eyes several times in row. However, pattern recognition is something I was trained to look for in both my science classes and my Quality Control jobs. It takes long-term experience to recognize patterns that only occur once or twice a year.
I have thought long and hard about leaving ALL recovery fellowships due to too much negative feedback from short-sighted people and nay-sayers who think my caveats are superfluous. The #1 thing that keeps me connected with recovery groups is to gain more ability to recognize and avoid traps that I do not YET know about. Somethings can simply never be discerned without many years of honest fellowship sharing and hundreds of iterations of pattern recognition.
I certainly not always right but unfortunately I am right too often.
Anyone in recovery is well advised to follow the advice of old timers. I have multiple people in my life that have 20+ years and I take very seriously what the have to say
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by MIRecovery
The longer we are sober and the more successes and failures we see the more I trust my gut instincts about people. You can see it in their face and body language. It is what they say and don't say.
I certainly not always right but unfortunately I am right too often.
I certainly not always right but unfortunately I am right too often.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
I agree, boleo, that what you describe is a "thing," and is something that I've witnessed several times in my many years in AA. The often immediate and intense sense of wellness that happens after putting down the drink can be overwhelming, particularly in comparison to the ongoing misery that we suffered while drinking. Add in regular support from strangers who also struggle with alcoholism, and the stage is set for a potentially unrealistic experience of what sobriety is and can be. From what I've observed, and sometimes experienced myself, this state of being can mimic a kind of mania, with the accompanying feeling of not being entirely in control and a low-level, underlying sense of dread that not all things are as they appear to be.
There is a common corollary in psychotherapy that's referred to as a "flight to health." After presenting with one or two (sometimes more) chronic, longstanding and complicated problems in her life, the patient relatively quickly thereafter reports that she's "feeling" much better and therefore needs to rethink whether or not she needs therapy. Or that she can work on things on her own, now that she's figured out what the problem is. "Thank you so much for your help!" If your goal is limited to "feeling better," then you don't need psychotherapy. This occurrence is so common that I'm more surprised when it doesn't occur than when it does.
This particular dynamic serves many purposes, among them is protecting the patient's reluctance to feel unwell, "broken," and somewhat different from her peers in a way that is objectionable to her. For many people, the very fact of "being in therapy" means that there's "something wrong" with them, a sense that is nourished by their having internalized the stigma attached to people who have mental health problems.
What typically ensues is, in private or in the consulting room, the patient tells herself that she is "smarter" than the therapist or that the therapist -- or anyone else -- could not possibly know her better than she does, neglecting the fact that therapy is not an IQ contest and that for most of us (I don't say "all" in order not to offend), other people often see things in us about which we are either unaware or in denial as to their existence. When people observe such things out loud to us, the natural reaction is to become defensive, sometimes violently so.
This position also allows the patient to spare her ego of any intrusive thoughts around not being exactly who she imagines herself to be, and against the shame that often accompanies opening up about things we are loathe to admit or even acknowledge in almost any circumstance. I don't know how many times I've heard a patient say, "I've never told this to anyone" or "This is the first time I've ever talked about this." Even when this may not be factually true, and it doesn't matter to me at that moment whether or not it is, it leaves the patient feeling The natural reaction is to flee, in this case, to an illusion of renewed health so that the patient no longer needs to feel the unwanted feelings, such as vulnerability and shame, that often come with being honest and open about who we are, rather than presenting a stable and "together" front that comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes.
When I was in outpatient treatment, there was a guy about my age, maybe a little younger, who was all gung-ho about recovery and AA. It was the first time he'd put together a couple of months without drinking, and he could barely hold his tongue while other people were speaking in the group. When he did speak, he told everyone how grateful he was for his sobriety, and what each of us should be doing to stay sober, and that if we didn't do what he said, we were likely going to get ourselves in trouble. This was not at all unusual for him, and he frequently reminded us of how well he was doing, that his wife trusted him again, his boss loved him, and his children were overjoyed that he was sober. Nothing could be better.
One day, he was going on about God, God's Master Plan for him, and something about the only reason that his life was spared throughout his drinking was because God had this Master Plan for him. He wasn't talking about these things as though they were limited to his personal experience; he was talking about them as though this is the way that things are for everyone. Besides all that, there wasn't anything obvious about him that would make one think that he was a religious person. The counselor, having a good sense of my thinking about the things this guy was talking about, asked me to respond to his speech, um, thoughts. I told the guy that I didn't know what God was thinking at any given moment, that I don't believe that God kept me alive because he had bigger plans for me, and that I don't think much of Divine redemption for anything I'd done in my life as a function of my getting sober. The guy was up and out of his seat, spitting and swearing, veins on the verge of bursting, and his face was so red that it was difficult to pick up any other colors that may have been in that room.
He was removed from treatment less than four weeks later after failing a random, in-group breathalyzer. I don't mean to say that everyone who is zealous about early sobriety is necessarily in trouble, or that the guy boleo wrote about died due to his meteoric ascent in a fellowship for people who have problems with alcohol. I have no way of knowing that. But I have seen this happen a great many times over the years. I've witnessed here on SR more than a couple of times as well.
I'll repeat what I've written many times before, something my first sponsor told me back in 1983 during my first couple of weeks of sobriety, something that became increasingly meaningful for me the longer I stayed sober, and perhaps something that very few people are willing to hear: "You cannot get this (sobriety) slowly enough."
There is a common corollary in psychotherapy that's referred to as a "flight to health." After presenting with one or two (sometimes more) chronic, longstanding and complicated problems in her life, the patient relatively quickly thereafter reports that she's "feeling" much better and therefore needs to rethink whether or not she needs therapy. Or that she can work on things on her own, now that she's figured out what the problem is. "Thank you so much for your help!" If your goal is limited to "feeling better," then you don't need psychotherapy. This occurrence is so common that I'm more surprised when it doesn't occur than when it does.
This particular dynamic serves many purposes, among them is protecting the patient's reluctance to feel unwell, "broken," and somewhat different from her peers in a way that is objectionable to her. For many people, the very fact of "being in therapy" means that there's "something wrong" with them, a sense that is nourished by their having internalized the stigma attached to people who have mental health problems.
What typically ensues is, in private or in the consulting room, the patient tells herself that she is "smarter" than the therapist or that the therapist -- or anyone else -- could not possibly know her better than she does, neglecting the fact that therapy is not an IQ contest and that for most of us (I don't say "all" in order not to offend), other people often see things in us about which we are either unaware or in denial as to their existence. When people observe such things out loud to us, the natural reaction is to become defensive, sometimes violently so.
This position also allows the patient to spare her ego of any intrusive thoughts around not being exactly who she imagines herself to be, and against the shame that often accompanies opening up about things we are loathe to admit or even acknowledge in almost any circumstance. I don't know how many times I've heard a patient say, "I've never told this to anyone" or "This is the first time I've ever talked about this." Even when this may not be factually true, and it doesn't matter to me at that moment whether or not it is, it leaves the patient feeling The natural reaction is to flee, in this case, to an illusion of renewed health so that the patient no longer needs to feel the unwanted feelings, such as vulnerability and shame, that often come with being honest and open about who we are, rather than presenting a stable and "together" front that comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes.
When I was in outpatient treatment, there was a guy about my age, maybe a little younger, who was all gung-ho about recovery and AA. It was the first time he'd put together a couple of months without drinking, and he could barely hold his tongue while other people were speaking in the group. When he did speak, he told everyone how grateful he was for his sobriety, and what each of us should be doing to stay sober, and that if we didn't do what he said, we were likely going to get ourselves in trouble. This was not at all unusual for him, and he frequently reminded us of how well he was doing, that his wife trusted him again, his boss loved him, and his children were overjoyed that he was sober. Nothing could be better.
One day, he was going on about God, God's Master Plan for him, and something about the only reason that his life was spared throughout his drinking was because God had this Master Plan for him. He wasn't talking about these things as though they were limited to his personal experience; he was talking about them as though this is the way that things are for everyone. Besides all that, there wasn't anything obvious about him that would make one think that he was a religious person. The counselor, having a good sense of my thinking about the things this guy was talking about, asked me to respond to his speech, um, thoughts. I told the guy that I didn't know what God was thinking at any given moment, that I don't believe that God kept me alive because he had bigger plans for me, and that I don't think much of Divine redemption for anything I'd done in my life as a function of my getting sober. The guy was up and out of his seat, spitting and swearing, veins on the verge of bursting, and his face was so red that it was difficult to pick up any other colors that may have been in that room.
He was removed from treatment less than four weeks later after failing a random, in-group breathalyzer. I don't mean to say that everyone who is zealous about early sobriety is necessarily in trouble, or that the guy boleo wrote about died due to his meteoric ascent in a fellowship for people who have problems with alcohol. I have no way of knowing that. But I have seen this happen a great many times over the years. I've witnessed here on SR more than a couple of times as well.
I'll repeat what I've written many times before, something my first sponsor told me back in 1983 during my first couple of weeks of sobriety, something that became increasingly meaningful for me the longer I stayed sober, and perhaps something that very few people are willing to hear: "You cannot get this (sobriety) slowly enough."
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
...the patient relatively quickly thereafter reports that she's "feeling" much better and therefore needs to rethink whether or not she needs therapy. Or that she can work on things on her own, now that she's figured out what the problem is.
I know for a fact that I have made a lot of progress. Not so much because I have a lot of calendar time abstinent, but because I have not thought about drinking or not-drinking in a long, long time. I don't think it is delusional to say "I have recovered".
But then again, I also know for sure that "working on things on my own" is delusional. While I don't think I need any particular program, group or fellowship... I know I need some person, group or cause higher/wider/more universal than myself. I doubt that I could truly work on my own for long periods of time.
When Buddha said;
“Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.”
He did not mean do-it-yourself. Buddha did not believe in individual self (Atman) but rather he believed in universal self (Dhamma).
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
A little while back I speculated on sobriety chips as a recognition of personal achievement, and whether, in the spiritual sense that was a good or bad thing.
It sounds like this young man was overwhelmed with recognition. For some reason a line in the book comes to mind. It says something like "was he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction from this life if only he manages well".
Many people die as a result of returning to drinking. Nearly all of us could have died in the same way. Choking on vomit, house fires, bar fights, car accidents, alcohol poisoning, other misadventure when drunk. Most of these could not be called suicide.
The strange thing about the suicides I know of, is that the victims did not drink. Two hung themselves, one shot himself in the head twice. None were drinking. It seem these folks could see no solution to their problem, not even alcohol.
It sounds like this young man was overwhelmed with recognition. For some reason a line in the book comes to mind. It says something like "was he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction from this life if only he manages well".
Many people die as a result of returning to drinking. Nearly all of us could have died in the same way. Choking on vomit, house fires, bar fights, car accidents, alcohol poisoning, other misadventure when drunk. Most of these could not be called suicide.
The strange thing about the suicides I know of, is that the victims did not drink. Two hung themselves, one shot himself in the head twice. None were drinking. It seem these folks could see no solution to their problem, not even alcohol.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Thanks for this very thought-provoking thread, Boleo - whether or not this particular poor young guy had actually relapsed or not, I tend to also notice this kind of dynamic in a few recovering people(based on my own limited experience around recovery communities / fellowships these past few years). And I think that Endgame laid that phenomenon out very vividly.
It's downright scary, in my experience - seen it a quite a number of times in the rooms, in rehabs and yes, in my own thinking when it gets too distorted. 'A kind of mania', as EG put it, is an image that has also struck me too. I'm quite wary of it now, in myself. I love EG's first sponsor's wise saying.
It's downright scary, in my experience - seen it a quite a number of times in the rooms, in rehabs and yes, in my own thinking when it gets too distorted. 'A kind of mania', as EG put it, is an image that has also struck me too. I'm quite wary of it now, in myself. I love EG's first sponsor's wise saying.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by Gottalife
The strange thing about the suicides I know of, is that the victims did not drink. Two hung themselves, one shot himself in the head twice. None were drinking. It seem these folks could see no solution to their problem, not even alcohol.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
In AA alcohol is considered a symptom of a deeper disorder. It is said alcohol comes in bottles, alcoholism in people.
I heard the life story of a dying man one time. He had been dry more than 20 years, mostly he said, unhappy. He didn't go to AA due to experience with his fathers interpretation of the program. He talked about years of suffering untreated alcoholism. He was glad to get a lot of stuff off his chest, things he had had to live with on his own all that time.
I can understand why he stayed away from AA. But there was no other treatment available, so he just suffered through. He stayed dry but he never really got any freedom or pleasure in his life.
I heard the life story of a dying man one time. He had been dry more than 20 years, mostly he said, unhappy. He didn't go to AA due to experience with his fathers interpretation of the program. He talked about years of suffering untreated alcoholism. He was glad to get a lot of stuff off his chest, things he had had to live with on his own all that time.
I can understand why he stayed away from AA. But there was no other treatment available, so he just suffered through. He stayed dry but he never really got any freedom or pleasure in his life.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
Originally Posted by Boleo
Perhaps hearing about too many deaths and going to too many funerals has jaded me. But then again, shouldn't they have a profound effect on me?
For self protection I distance myself from new people. I'm friendly, helpful and caring but I don't get emotionally involved because it hurts to much when they crash and burned
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 1,068
I am generally skeptical of people who have a "perfect" program or "perfect" recovery. Based on my experience and observations a lot of folks who claim perfection are not being entirely honest with the group or in many cases themselves. In the end they often relapse.
For me hearing people who share about struggle and weakness in recovery is more inspiring. At least they are humble enough to be honest. But maybe I'm just being self centered. Just because I'm weak doesn't mean everyone else in recovery shares my defects. Who knows?
In the end I can't control my thoughts. It's my behavior that matters and I can control my behavior. I won't bash or disrespect someone who seems to be putting on a perfect recovery front. It's simply not a positive behavior for me to engage in. And now I'm just starting to ramble so I'll shut up.
For me hearing people who share about struggle and weakness in recovery is more inspiring. At least they are humble enough to be honest. But maybe I'm just being self centered. Just because I'm weak doesn't mean everyone else in recovery shares my defects. Who knows?
In the end I can't control my thoughts. It's my behavior that matters and I can control my behavior. I won't bash or disrespect someone who seems to be putting on a perfect recovery front. It's simply not a positive behavior for me to engage in. And now I'm just starting to ramble so I'll shut up.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 30,196
I've been told that being transparent with my struggles really encourages people who are more shy. Often people have been suffering in silence, but hearing another person share their own experiences with the struggle can offer relief and hope.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
My recovery was an event. The moment I realised the drink problem had gone, and the entire world had changed is not a moment I will ever forget. It didn't turn me into an instant grown up, but the removal of the alcohol handicap enabled me to resume a relatively normal journey in life. Freedom from alcohol means just that. Alcohol has no say or even relevance in my life today.
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Gottalife
My recovery was an event. The moment I realised the drink problem had gone, and the entire world had changed is not a moment I will ever forget.
This post is a caveat to me as much as anyone.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
Originally Posted by Boleo
On the other hand, whenever I see or her of someone relapsing with solid gold recovery (6 months or 6 decades - makes no difference)
And anyone who seems to have such a strong program - perhaps as I seem to others- can't be lauded, nor picked apart. We are all human, not special snowflakes, and can only do our best to live what we see others who have what we want, and - bottom line? Have no business picking apart anyone else's program, post-mortem or not. This doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned, but the lesson should be....turn to your program, see what YOU can do better, and go try to do it.
Just my $0.02+.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,950
I'm with a couple of the other commentators here.... This go around, I have had great success with my sobriety, and have taken huge leaps in terms of personal growth. Can a person do everything right and still relapse months or years down the line? Do I have to answer that question? No, I do not.
I think what's happening on the inside is far more important than what is happening on the outside. Maybe one of the keys to failure is that external change is our main focus, rather than internal growth.
I think what's happening on the inside is far more important than what is happening on the outside. Maybe one of the keys to failure is that external change is our main focus, rather than internal growth.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by Boleo
Same here, but I know "Bad Karma" when I see it. Bragging about recovery is mostly bad Karma. Even I do it on occasion and make a concerted effort to reconcile for it afterwards. Those new to recovery need to know that it takes balance in all aspects of our thinking to make it over the bumps in life.
This post is a caveat to me as much as anyone.
This post is a caveat to me as much as anyone.
Boasting about not drinking really makes no more sense that boasting about breathing. It ought to be our normal state. Doing what we should do is nothing to be especially proud of.
Then there is the matter of how each of us managed to find our normal state. Some just decided. Others like me had no idea how to escape the insanity. I obtained my recovery by drawing on a Higher Power. That is why it was an event. Miracles are often events. But the credit is not mine.
I made a deal in step three that I would bear witness to His power if he solved my problem. He did, and I do. It is almost embarrassing when people who do not understand try and give me credit for an achievement which was not mine.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Truth of the matter is in the proof. I have never met anyone lifting a drink after a period of time that was spiritually well and applying the principles in all of their affairs , nor have I known or heard of anyone committing suicide , or even thinking about doing so that is spiritually well and practicing the principles .
''One drink away from a drunk ? '' the program offers so much more than that .
We will know a new freedom , restored to sanity , the obsession being removed , having a daily reprieve , spiritual malady overcome ,straightened out physically and mentally , and had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, walking in the fellowship of the spirit and living a life beyond their wildest dreams God has done for me what I could not do myself . 12 Steps and God of my understanding and all of the above ''away from a drink or wanting to take my own life '' that is the new freedom they speak about .
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
''One drink away from a drunk ? '' the program offers so much more than that .
We will know a new freedom , restored to sanity , the obsession being removed , having a daily reprieve , spiritual malady overcome ,straightened out physically and mentally , and had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, walking in the fellowship of the spirit and living a life beyond their wildest dreams God has done for me what I could not do myself . 12 Steps and God of my understanding and all of the above ''away from a drink or wanting to take my own life '' that is the new freedom they speak about .
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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