EndGameNYC

This hasn't been my experience, at least not in comparison to whom and what I used to be. I think a whole lot of dreams end with "easier said than done." In fact, I take the expression as a challenge, rather than a reason to either search for an easier, less fulfilling alternative, or do nothing at all. Anything I've achieved in life of any value to me required hard work and doing plenty of things I'd rather not do. In the long run, it's always been much more difficult for me -- and depleting -- to argue with my own thinking around how I'm not smart enough, experienced enough, likeable enough or good enough to pursue my dreams and desires than is the doing part.

The concept of an AV, for example, is, for me, the manifestation of a mind arguing against itself, with a decided focus on assumed or obvious weaknesses. Rather than wasting time assigning blame or arguing against my better self, I've trained myself to take risks rather than suffer the regret of not trying. If I'm committed to making progress, then there is no better way for me to start than to work with my strengths. When I haven't made that commitment, then my greatest strength is making excuses.

Although I have little or no control over many things in the world (I ride the subway a lot ), that doesn't excuse me or disqualify me from doing what I need to do improve my life and that of those I love, or to make smaller parts of the world a better place to live,

For me, one of the requirements of Existence is to never confuse activity with progress, and to never confuse acceptance with passivity.

zjw

its a difficult thing. just recently I thought about if i had contact with my abuser and how they'd more then likely deny and be very quick to explain why i was a crap kid and deserved what came my way etc.. further shaming me and so on. it would be on there part a denial of the situation and there way to defend themselves so they dont have to expierence the shame and guilt. Sure on one hand i got big shoulders i'll shoulder it and move on my happy way. but keep in mind if i where in contact with my abuser there is a good possibility i'd cower like a child all over again YEP! sad isnt it?!. All I want from them is an apology and i'll smile and say thank you and walk away. But I'll never get that so it is what it is. And since I'll never get that I can chooose to feel the shame or not I suppose.

So I guess if you have no choice no control over the matter you can go oh stupid me its my fault for feeling this shame that i was inflicted. It took a while for me to get to that point however it was not an easy thing.

But the thing is with the abusers and such. I'm not my abusers judge. and thankfully so for startes i'd be very unjust and possibly too harsh? is that even possible? yeah maybe?!

It doesnt make my abuser right and me wrong it doesnt excuse them of there infraction. But I guess I've tried to remove myself from the equation so that I dont have to feel all that bad stuff anymore. Cause i'm so sick of feeling all that.

One thing i've learned since I got sober and it dont always remember this but when i interact with someone else and i feel crappy as a result anger shame whatever it is and its the other persons actiosn that caused me to feel this way. I've come to a point where I realize ya know its my fault for expecting something different out of them.

For example i met with my grandparents a couple years ago. I was so eager to see them and such it had been a while I had hoped they had changed mellowed some and so on. I left miserable we had quite the blow out i felt awful etc... it took a few days to sink it but i realized the problem. I went in there expecting tehy had changed and i got a foul taste in my mouth when i left and realized they had not changed. I was the fool. Had I gone in there realizing they are the way that they are or not bothered to see them at all I would have saved myself a lot of headache!. so from that view I have some blame there. It doesnt excuse them of there nonsense but It helps me learn next tiem be mroe prepared i'm hoping there wont be a next time however.

Dame

Thanks for this sleepie. And thank you for having the courage to speak up. I have a feeling that many people are reading your posts with very similar experiences, so you are not going unheard. If you don't see a "thanks" under your posts, it might be possible that they fear shame or disapproval of they risk a "thanks."
Artists and those who pursue the Liberal Arts generally feel a calling to look beneath the surface of the "realities" we choose for ourselves. Sadly, they are routinely silenced or ridiculed.

Darwinia

Tackling a problem such as alcoholism is the bravest move since Braveheart slaughtered the English. I see no shame. I see only courage. Perhaps the US is different. I only received congratulations when I announced my decision to quit. Some friends nag me to drink again but it is done in good humour and with respect for what I decide. Perhaps in a country such as ours with so many challenges people do not have the luxury to make a big deal out of alcoholism.

2muchpain

I agree with everything you said, but it doesn't take into account the benefits of self-pity. Caring people rush to your side, reinforcing the self-pitier that their miserable life has nothing to do with their actions or inactions and not much can be done because they are doomed to a life of misery. IMHO, it just reinforces staying stuck and not doing anything to make things better. I think self-pity is a drug and very addictive. When you think of it, all the symptoms of someone addictive to alcohol or drugs shows up with people addictive to self-pity. John

zjw

2muchpain I can see how self pity could be like that. I sometimes wonder with my mother if she thrives on her own misery. Theres probably some in this world that really do unknowingly tho I think? The thing is tho with my mom anyhow geeze iv'e known her all my life and i still sit here thinking I sometimes wonder. Its really a tough call to say someone thrives on self pity.

I could look at my moms life from another angle and say here is the most selfless person i know she'd give you her last morsel of food and starve to death and life has done nothing but hand her one crap hand after another she could never ever catch a break. If i where to win the lotto i'd pay off her debts and set her up in an instent even if turned around and gave it all away and ruined her life She would at least have had some peace for sometime.

its hard to believe but there really are indeed some folks out there that have just been handed nothing but squat in this life.

That being said I know folks with way crummier lives then me and they are ions happier then i am so then i gotta wonder about myself.

zjw

yeah the artist types always think different. Not to drag someone else into this thread whos not here but take davaidavai for example he always offers a unique twist in every post and he's the artist type.

that kinda of creative thought goes a long way at problem solving when one does not have a lot to work with or go on. The rest of us gotta go find a book look it up or something.

i worked with an artist once she did our graphics and the boss let her come and go. I asked once hey how come she doesnt have set hours and so on. he said if i dot hat i get nothing out of her. he's like if i just let her be herself the creativity just flows. he's like so i just leave her alone. he was right too she delivered some killer stuff so long as she was free to create as it flowed.

ScottFromWI

Several posts have been removed. I will remind folks ONE FINAL TIME that personal arguments and name calling between users is a violation of Rule #4 of the SR Policies. Please read them at the following link if you have any questions about them. Please ask a moderator via PM if you are unclear.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html

Discussing the issues that have been brought up in this thread is a good thing, but calling people names or assuming we understand other's motives and /or ridiculing them is NOT ALLOWED. Warnings and potential bans will be issued moving forward for any violations of this policy.

EndGameNYC

It may be helpful for you to reflect on this.

I'm concerned that you've taken doctoring into your own hands. You have a wife and several (five? six?) children. No matter how bad the health system in the States may be, a doctor is his own worst patient, particularly when he isn't a doctor.

When you talk about your early abuse, your comments circle around blame and restitution, rather than working on a serviceable outcome. We rarely get closure, at least not the closure we want, but relief, and even redemption, are both possible. But neither will come looking for you. You've essentially concluded (or at least you tell yourself with very little conviction) in this thread and others, that "if it's not their fault, it must be me."

You've reduced your alternatives to getting an apology that is likely to be unavailable, which is also your preferred outcome, or "shouldering" the pain, and walking your "happy" way. Landing on only these two, somewhat unrealistic outcomes keeps your past alive in your present. And I don't believe that nurturing a resentment by holding onto the pain and simply walking away has anything to do with either happiness or resolution.

When I identify as the "abused one" into adulthood, then everyone is a potential enemy, and no one can truly help because no one can ever truly know what I've been through. I never consider other options beyond my own thinking, because only I know what is good for me. Besides, if not everyone is out to get me, I will surely find a way to be disappointed in them. Add to that the convenience that there's always a good excuse not to get the help I need.

How do I know so much about mental states that are familiar to me? I have a wonderful education and excellent training, followed by a successful and fulfilling career in what may be the best city on the planet for what I do. Nope, it's not that, though I imagine it helped. More important is that I've lived through it. I was more neglected than frankly abused, but it all amounted to the same thing for me and my internal life.

My "having been abused/neglected life" no longer carries any currency, and serves no purpose. I'm not special, I have the same kinds of problems that most people have, and I'm no magician. I reached out for help and, when it was given, I put aside my prejudices about what kind of help I was getting, I put aside all my well-considered excuses, I found a way to get the help I needed without spending a fortune that I did not have, and I stopped listening to my abusive voice. Nothing new, no big secret, and nothing different from anything else that the millions of people who suffer in these ways each year have done to make progress.

Life awaits. But not forever.

Delilah1

I have switched my primary care doctor because I didn't feel it was the right fit, and now I love my doctor. I have also requested second opinions of not satisfied with the diagnosis or lack of one. It is important that we advocate for ourselves when it comes to our health.

zjw

thanks your a bit off in your assessment But I do thank you for your input and consideration.

as far as the doctoring goes I dunno i'm healthy as a horse run like crazy and feel great I think my approach is working great for me anyhow. if I do need a doctor again like i said I do go but i'm not the type that runs ot the doc for any little thing. Luckily my kids do have insurance through the tax payer funded program.

I'm not having major issues iwth my abuse in the past these days for what its worth. its something that is there is all.

I hope I clarified my situation some. your response just seems kinda off but I'm guessing you guaged it on the limited amt of info you know about me via this board and ran with it. Thats ok I understand.

EndGameNYC

Yeah, what you describe is often part of the problem, and often becomes THE problem, but I typically don't address such things before my patients do in my work. Or unless there's a good reason to do so.

In my field, we refer to this as "secondary gain." The attention and care that the "sick one" gets is reinforcing and cannot only interfere with making progress, but can become a way of being in the world, one that replaces authentic existence. It's impossible to forge genuine relationships when the union is based on pity or an obsessive need for attention. This kind of relationship almost always collapses under its own pathological weight.

People in such a mental state are not bad people. Many people with mental illness are shunned, criticized, ignored and/or abused. They are not used to receiving loving care without judgment or without strings attached. When it registers that other people demonstrate care and concern for them while they are suffering, it's very difficult to disengage from the behavior, in part because the alternatives are so painful, and the association between care and emotional pain becomes increasingly stronger.

Secondary gain is similar to the dynamics of Munchausen Syndrome and Munchausen by Proxy, though there are significant differences as well.

For me, there are things in life much worse than being disliked or even despised. Being pitied is one of them.

zjw

I agree with changing your doc if you have too. But a gripe of mine is i've had to change docs all because i got some new insurance plan at work and the doc i LIKE isnt on the new plan etc... Then its like oh here we go again gotta go try and find another doctor *Sigh*

it can be a drag is my point. then i end up thinking does this illness merit a doc visit.

Heck i went for chronic diariah once when i drank got sent home with immodium i was like i paid how much for this?

doc was right too!! immodium worked but geeeze ::Faceapalm::

another time i went cause I coudlnt hear out of my left ear got told to quit using qtips and use this ear cleaning stuff that i could get over the counter again it was liek REALLY It took an MD for this .

Sure in both cases thank god it was not something worse but when i've faced the 2 situations again i ddidnt bother with a doctor again.

this is me and yeah if my condtions persisted i woulda gone back.

tomsteve

i have been blessed to be asked to share my story a few times for open talks.
sharing my experience of being diagnosed with cancer and fighting it sober, every time when i start by saying i was diagnosed 13 months into recovery, theres been a ,"oooohhh no" or ," you poor thing" from someone, which i say that aint what im sharing for and pitying me doesnt help.

EndGameNYC

My response may be off, but I'm basing it on what I've read in your comments over the past three years.

As far as self-doctoring is concerned, what I'm getting at is that you seem to be settling for something less than you might need and may also be unaware of needing. There's a huge gap between running off to the doctor every time you stub your toe and only going when something's obviously gone wrong. My concern for your children is not about their being insured, but that their father may not be getting adequate care.

Optimum health often has little to do with how we feel. A doctor's responsibility is in preventing diseases that are not present and treating those that are. He isn't responsible for making his patients feel good, though that is often a consequence of good health, but not always. Many people don't "feel" tumors or their effects for several months. Few people "feel" bad about having diabetes for a long time before the diagnosis is rendered. I won't give anymore gruesome examples, but I hope you know what I mean.

To respond to your observations, you've commented about your dissatisfaction with work for years, just as you've commented about your early abuse for years. Concluding that it's "just there..." I don't even know what that means but, from your own words, you don't have to be a psychologist to see that it hasn't just gone away on its own, and still influences your thinking, and possibly your behavior. Like not taking care of yourself, physically and emotionally.

I wish you nothing but the best, but I've also noticed a tendency to sweep things under the carpet, or just "move on" as though your concerns will somehow take care of themselves as long as you don't do anything about them. Or that thinking them through in a more or less rational manner will drain them of their power. I'm only surprised that you haven't noticed this.

zjw

I dunno endgamenyc I think your looking for deeper issue here and there isnt one. I'm not gonna deny that things have bothered me over the years about this or that.

sweeping things under the rug? I dunno that i'd call it this. I just dont focus and dwell on stuff that makes me feel terrible if i can help it and it serves no purpose. past is in the past I try to leave it there and discuss it here in terms of trying to relate to others and such.

I dunno sobriety has tught me life moves on thankfully if by that you' think i've swept things under the rug well ok i guess. But I dont feel the need to ruminate and hash out all my issues ad infinetum over and over.

My job situation is garbage but I'm trying to remain positive many days and do what i gotta do so i can provide for my family. It could be worse I could have cancer or something. I got various problems like anyone else as well and I dunno I"m thankful for my problems these days cause there mine and i'm used to them.

I'm still just kinda at a loss as to what your getting at. I never really asked for the assessment.

EndGameNYC

Okay. I gotcha. I'll stop picking on you. My only intention was to present alternatives to apparently what only seems to me to be areas of concern for you. Whether or not you asked for what you call an assessment is immaterial. When I post something here, I'm not only responsible for my comments, but I take it as my responsibility to accept the responses that my comments elicit, whether I agree with them or not. I made an assumption that this is true of everyone.

But you do leave me shaking my head when I read this:

I don't see anything "deep" in my comments.

zjw

just to add i'm not sure how you get this? I run 50 miles a week am lean and mean healthy as a horse in top notch physical shape best shape of my life I might add. I hate to toot my horn but my blood work looks amazing my doc was amazed with my vitals and compared me to an olympic athlete.

As for emotional health and such i've done nothing but read and read and read and seek help over the years.

I'm just at a total loss where your coming up wiht all this from.

I hate to toot my horn I prefer to have more humility then this post. But geeze. ::shakes head::

EndGameNYC

As I said, I'm not going to pick on you anymore. If you're feeling fine, then who am I to say anything about?

Be well.

zjw

maybe its just a disconnect in our dialog then.