Justice?
 

What is it exactly? Is it wrong for me to long for it? For those of you familiar with my story, you know something of my struggles to restore my relationship with my children. I have 2 daughters, 15 and 12. I currently have rights to unsupervised visits with both, but only my oldest has been meeting with me, on average, once/week. The youngest wants nothing to do with me and I've seen her only once in a year and a half.

Recently, since the existing court order has been in place over a year and I've met all requirements expected of me, I've made a request to modify the order to allow unsupervised visits. I've requested no set schedule, fully respecting the wishes of my daughters, but just an opportunity to at least have private conversations. (Their stepdad has sat across from my oldest daughter and me during every visit.) I had one such visit with my oldest daughter tonight. Soon after parting, her mother emailed me to say my daughter was uncomfortable telling me this in person, but she now only wants bi-weekly visits. Maybe it's what my daughter wants, maybe it's only what my ex wants. I must admit, the timing is suspicious, but what good would it do to question her or start a fight? I simply replied, "If that is her decision, I understand and respect it."

The good news is, this in no way makes me consider a drink. That's what got me here in the first place. Just my motivation took a kick to the groin. It hurts. Just letting some of it out here so I don't hold it all inside.

Best of luck with the request, sounds like you've been doing all the right things. Time can be a powerful healer.

I know these kinds of posts are tough to respond to. What can you say, unless I'm obviously doing something wrong? Am I? God knows I've turned this thing every which way I can to consider every possible angle. Maybe I try too hard? Nothing and no one means more to me than my girls. It breaks my heart and stops me dead in my tracks sometimes. They will continue to grow up, and they'll either choose to grow toward or away from me, or be altogether indifferent. People tell me all daughters love their daddies and they'll come around. "God's time, not your time." Maybe. Maybe not. There are no guarantees. So, I guess it's the uncertainty that torments me. I'm just a father who loves his children.

I can't offer any help with the youngsters because I don't have any kids..

I've read alot of your posts and comments and know you're a big AA advocate like me! keep up the good work, let go and let God.. Easier said than done I know..

I hope you have a good weekend and all this stuff works itself out! Please keep us in the loop..Wishing you the best, friend!!

DG

I've been divorced for years, sorry to hear about the situation ,I've been there.
Both of my kids at 15 wanted to see me less, they are growing up. It's hard, but try and don't take it personal.. Do the best you can for you and they will see it, it will come around. Make the time you have with them count.. Good luck.

I don't know your story or what kind of person you are. I do know that as a kid the visiting of my father was a fraught situation. I cried when I went and cried when I left. Later they put me and my brother on the bus. And then on planes going back and forth. In retrospect, these visits and supervised police station custodial exchanges had little to do with me. My father was gloomy. He usually had his little flask in the evening. Sometimes he harassed me with questions for hours. He always left us alone in the apartment, didn't seem to recognize that that bothered me. I didn't like being there, but I loved the guy, and when I left I always cried. I'm a lot like him today, although he thinks of me as over sensitive. I too am gloomy. But I never had kids. Never saw a way into that life.

I think he has his regrets of course, but it seems to me like they are more like regrets, that he didn't do this thing or that thing at the time to get others to respect him, that he wasn't a 'man' enough, etc. I haven't seen him in 6 years. Sometimes he writes to demand cash, and he curses me when I don't comply. The thing is, he's been an active addict for the last 10 years, and he only writes to demand small sums and to curse me. Sometimes I'll show him his bs and try to shame him. Kind of like how I moderated my parent's conflicts, or experienced myself doing so, when I was 8. This time it's a bit crazier however because he is obviously ruining himself, not with a daily flask, but with the odl meth pipe. He'll never own up to the fact that his addiction brought him to penury. Once he demanded to come live out here and kick his habit out here. I can't let him. He'll take over. He's filthy for one thing, refuses to have adult conversations for another, demands small sums of cash. It's like his problems have only fermented over the years, grown richer and more powerful as he has aged. He has a big, smelly life. I had to let the love I had of him go, and now I don't feel much. If he died tomorrow, I'd fly out, cremate the body. Would I cry? Probably, maybe, but probably not for him. I'd cry for the tragedy of life.

I guess my point is, you are already doing it. And I don't know your story. But, Justice? Maybe there is no justice. But there can be continuing to make it about your girls and not about you. Maybe you don't see the complexity of it all, of being handed back and forth. Keep trying, keep doing your best, keep learning about what your best is.

Thanks to those who have offered words of kindness and support.

davaidavai, thank you for your input and I'm sorry you've had such an unpleasant experience with your own father. I hesitated to start this post last night because I understood the risk of those who don't know my story painting it with their own broad brush, or perhaps even using it as an opportunity to disparage me out of the pain, anger, and frustration over their own personal experiences.

I can assure you I am, and have never been, like your father. My relationship with my children could have been better, certainly, but it was a pretty good one. They always looked forward to coming to stay with me, and expressed dread at the idea of going back to their mother. They were practically like wild animals when they hit my door! Makes it all the more painful to remember things like that. I live less than a half hour away from them, so there are never any bus rides, flights, and certainly no police, involved. I've never once asked my kids for anything, except to maybe give me a chance to try to make up to them for the hurt I've caused. I've not been given the opportunity to offer amends to them in person. I think the BB refers to that as deferred amends.

Think of the kids more and not myself? They are practically all I think about. If you read more of my story, I'm sure you would see that. It is because of what I think is in their best interest that I haven't taken my ex to court for violating a court order that she and her lawyer drew up together, and for alienation. Both my attorney, and my sponsor, who is also an attorney, have advised me that I could and maybe should. The option is still there. I haven't taken that kind of action because I don't want to become "scary dad" again.

You cannot know my whole story without also knowing a little of my ex's. I know of no one in my personal life, in or out of AA, who has spoken to me about this, who can believe she is doing what she is doing. I have bent over backwards to appease because I felt intense guilt, shame, and remorse over my actions. I trusted her to do what's right for the kids. It took a while of achieving lasting sobriety and working the steps for me to begin to feel better about myself, receive support and encouragement from my sponsor and others, to fight harder to win back the love and respect of my children. When I am not even allowed to communicate with them in private (or at all), it's a little difficult to do that. I've met with their counselor numerous times to discuss what it is they are looking for, in an attempt to meet them on their terms. She agreed with me that we needed to work toward repairing those relationships but, after meeting with much resistance, ostensibly from the kids but mostly from their mother, she has given up working on my behalf anymore.

So, now that I've defended myself, maybe we can proceed. Or maybe I should just let it go. The other risk I knew I was taking was that there really is little anyone can say in response to this to provide any kind of relief. It's the heaviest burden I carry, the heaviest I've ever carried. Sometimes I just need someone to listen.

Hi GMO, I am sorry to read of your struggles, it is hard to rebuild trust after years of destructive drinking but it seems to me that you are doing everything possible to repair the damage and be present for your daughters. The main thing is, don't give up, never give up.... Keep sticking your neck out and if your head gets chopped off just put it back on and do the same thing all over again. I say this from personal experience when 10 years ago my ex husband backed off from contact with my eldest because she struggled. Sadly they no longer have a relationship because he didn't put the effort in.... Just keep pushing, whatever it takes.
Keep posting here, there will be many on here going through the same as you. Take care. Elle:grouphug:

Ugh... I hate when I don't notice typos until it's too late to edit. in my previous post, in response to davaidavai, I meant to say I am NOT like his father.

my parents where divorced. I always wanted to see my dad. but my mom and my step father trash talked him so much and in the end would work so hard to make those visits shorter and shorter excuses liek we had campe or this activity or that they even where able to make us have to go 2 eyars without seeing him one time wthi there nonsense. He probably felt a bit like you do like wtf can i do? he iddnt wanna raise hell but at the same time raising hell might have been what it woulda taken.

The other side of the coin tho is you got daughters I know that can be a tough time for them. maybe your not trash talked maybe they are just encourged to be self absorbed in there other activities etc.. or maybe the girls are just really having a difficult time. I have no idea how good or bad you where. from what you describe I cant figure out why they wouldnt have come around by now tho but then again the circumstances have not been entirely conducive for you to be able to patch things up well either.

Its a tough call. my wifes mother split from her dad she was so difficult and he was so mad at her he didnt bother to fight to see my wife. sure he did for a little bit there and all but it was so diffuclt with the mother that he just gave up 30+ years went by before my wife ever saw him again. He's a decent guy but they got nothign. his parents are great too but again she has no relationship its sad really.

I dunn you've been sober for a bit now done well. If it where me I'd probably start to get angry about it and the gloves would be coming off and i'd be putting up a fight thats just me tho. I guess you gotta think about the kids ultimately tho and maybe a fight isnt what they wanna see or should see.

Surprised the younger one too. i was the younger one and i couldnt wait to see dad. but ig uess the younger they are the more influenced they can be.

something sounds fishy about the whole thing to me. sounds like the step dad and the mother are manipulating them or trashing you at this point i'm just surprised they havent come around but I dunno maybe you did do that much damage?

also be careful not to fool yourself. I'd stroke my step father along growing despite the fact taht i despised him. I did it to keep the pace but deep down i hated the guy. Lets hope this isnt the case for you.

I don't know whether or not this is any kind of consolation, but the reality is that it is not we, but the Universe and the people we've frightened and harmed, neglected and abused, blamed and used as excuses for our misery who decide when we've finished paying our dues. There's simply no way around it. And it is they and only they who decide how to respond. They don't owe us anything.

Without a doubt, the worst thing we can do is to attempt to shake up (aka "manipulate") this process at any time or place along the way as a means of getting what we want on our own schedule.

You're pretty close to the mark here. Their mother pretty much forces them to be high achievers. She has gotten them involved in numerous extracurricular activities. They are doing well and I actually am hopeful it will serve them well in the future, instead of making them so bitter toward her they don't want to do anything once they get away from her. So, in a sense, yes I do think there is probably a dual purpose served by immersing them in numerous activities.

That last part is the whole problem. I wouldn't know what they're thinking or feeling because circumstances are never such that anyone feels free to talk about it. With the stepfather always hawking around on my visits with my oldest daughter, and the moratorium on any and all communication between my youngest and me, it seems pretty apparent to me I'm being erased. That's why I've taken the first steps to make changes to the court order. We're going to mediation 8/30. It's a law in my state that everyone has to go through that first in child custody cases. If we can't come to an agreement then, the next step is court. I don't want to take it there, but I'm not going to roll over anymore either.

I never hurt or abused my kids. I barely ever even raised my voice to them, even when I drank. I endangered them, frequently. I think that's why their mother is so incensed with me, along with the fact that I finally revealed to her how long alcohol had been a problem during our marriage. She really believed I had quit in 2002 and hadn't started again. In reality, the last 5 years of our marriage were the heaviest drinking years of all. That's how distant we were from each other. We were not a happy couple, to say the least. She has her special way of manipulating the kids. My youngest daughter once said, "Mama says things without actually saying them." They're intelligent enough to know exactly what she means.

When my son was 14 years old I picked he and his friend up at the baseball park after a practice. I was intoxicated and got called at the last minute to go get them. Not that it mattered, I would have been drinking regardless - likely.

My son is now 20 - I got sober when he was 17. Somewhere around a year he brought this up to me. I had no recollection of it. Probably thought no one knew I was drunk.

When we get sober it's like driving down the road at 90 mph and slamming on the brakes - all that crap in the back seat comes flying forward and hits us in the head. In my case it's a pretty big pile of jazz to sort through, making sense of what I am able to - today. The miscues in my marriage are littered throughout that pile.

Step 8 explains I become willing to make amends. I had to accept in some cases this was all that could be done right now. The season for this had not yet occurred as is God's plan.

I put pen to paper with some amends and shelved them for another day when restitution might be possible. I got it out of me and let it go.

The relationship with my son improves and someday he may indeed forgive me for the episode mentioned and others I have yet to recall. Unlike when I was called to pick him up after I had been drinking, I no longer have that concern.

All I can do is keep on the path of my journey, staying sober and remain available.

I have empathy for your frustrations and fears. Keep working your program and ask for His will in your life...........

peace to you

I think right now you are absolutely doing the best you can given the situation GMO. Your process to enter mediation is sound and hopefully they will see that you have made progress and make changes to the arrangement appropriately.

"Justice" and "fairness" are 2 different things. There is the legal system you are currently working through and it has checks and balances. I am making an assumption here, but is it fair to say that one of the reasons the agreement is in place is because of the endagerment you list? If that's the case, It is understandable why they required supervised visits. Having said that, you've made a lot of progress and hopefully the review process will realize this and allow the necessary changes to be made.

You don't need to "prove" yourself to us here, each and every one of us has done things we regret in the past too. And many of us have faced consequences that may not have seemed "fair" or "just", but they happened and the best way to deal with them is of course to not drink first and foremost.

I'm happy you are here sharing all this and wish you the best at your hearing in a few days.

Yes, that is the primary reason the existing court order was put into place in April 2015. It was apparent by my worsening state at the time that I was becoming increasingly drunk and unpredictable. I passed out often and was difficult to awaken. This extreme was a new development, but it didn't take long before it was affecting every aspect of my life, from my job to my children. I came unraveled. The court order stated that, provided I met certain conditions (which have all been met), a request for modifications could be submitted one year from the date it was issued. I began that process in June.

Thats just concerning to me. they might be afraid to talk there true feelings or even be concerned that they are WRONG for feeling how they may feel.

For example I went to a group therapy with my step father and mother (both abusive) the therapist (a priest) asked this and that and i was very honest and very straight about what was going on in the home I was GENUINE in what i had said I thought for sure perhaps this was it i'd finally be able to work this out with him and maybe things would imrpove for me. Well the honesty got me nowhere I got beat all the way home for it and i was wrong for feeling how i did and so on by my step father. This is the kinda manipulation i dealt with they basicly would tag team to do whatever. and when it came to my biological father I once came home crying that the visit was over only to get beat for that so i had to struggle so hard fromt aht point forward to hide my emotions for fear i'd get beat for them then of course you question if your right or wrong for having the emotions.

No doubt your kids got some feelings going but I wouldnt be surprised if there a bit confused about the whole thing to be honest. WIth the version of the story they get from the motehr and step father who have there agendas and then your version and you have your agenda both good or bad etc.. kids are just slammed in the middle of it all.

I hope it works out tho before too much more time is lost with your kids its a shame really is.

To an extent, that is true and I see the point you are trying to make. However, all humans are fallible and prone to doing harmful things to each other, including making decisions that are unfair and/or illegal. Being an alcoholic is not the only sort of behavior that is destructive, that sets US apart from THEM. I didn't sleep well last night because of all this so I hope I'm making sense here.

In the case of my ex, she clearly violated a court order. My attorney encouraged me to pursue that, but I decided against it, because I believed it would risk driving my kids further away. That, in essence, would be "manipulating the process," but in response to a violation of law, and for the purpose of intervening on behalf of my children who are living in an environment I believe is potentially at least as harmful to them as what I was doing. I believe the toxicity of what they are being exposed to via my ex's hatred and resentment of me will either backfire on her, or poison them against me for life. Neither scenario is what I would want to see happen. I don't want them to hate anyone.

The point I'm making is this: what makes my sin so much more severe that I should have to wait on my ex to grant me the access to my children that the law allows me? Why should I wait for her, who isn't likely to ever truly forgive me, to recognize that right?

I think you are getting the law (justice) and sin (fairness) confused again to be honest. Pursuing your legal right would not be considered "manipulation". And you also have a hearing coming up this week that may end in your favor anyway, correct?

Maybe I am. Like I say...not a lot of sleep last night. Sometimes I do get confused in the AA program about what I have the right to do, and what is right to do, regarding justice or fairness. Sometimes I feels like I'm expected to apologize myself out of all relevance because of things I did in the past. I get impatient, which I understand easily lends itself to insensitivity.

The hearing is in about a week and a half and, yes, I do hope and pray it works out in a way that is best for everyone, whether or not any of us is even completely aware of what that is.

I think at some point tho you gotta gain your confidence back and put your foot down and quit apologizing for your actions as it makes you look week and makes you a target for manipulation and so on. You apologized for it its in the past you can totally move forward and move on and if others still think your a piece of garbage drunk thats there dang problem and theres to deal with. they can wish for more apologies all day long but again at some point you should be done with that aspect of your recovery.

I dont wanna ruffle any feathers but i rpobably spend the first year or to thinking about all the darn mistakes i made and all that was wrong with me. and there was indeed tons wrong with me and tons for me to work on still is. But at some point i thought I am the way that i am deal with it people. That doesnt mean i'm not gonna try and continue to improve and so on but i'm not gonna allow others to make me feel like i'm less then just becasue i 've made some mistakes or i got some personality flaws that need fixing. cause really at the end of the day no ones perfect.

Its annoyign tho when people use your shortcomings to try and gain the upperhand in relations.

Dunno i've read your posts from the begining i think and you seem like a decent person just doing what ya gotta do to straighten out things and get on the right track nothing wrong with that at all its commendable.

your problem is drinking etc.. someone elses might be something else etc.. no ones perfect. your not less then because of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk82j1jQw_8

dont let people beat you up over your past etc.. you've done good stand strong move forward is what i'm trying to say.