For those tortured by PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms) and who fear they might go mad
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by billck1 
Hi Steely,
Yes it is all about time it appears. Remember that, just like Benzodiazepines (these pills target the same neurotransmitters as alcohol namely the G.A.B.A. and glutamate receptors in the brain) which throws the normal brain chemistry out, as the body, after years of regular intake comes to rely on the pills or alcohol and adjusts the naturally made brain chemicals to compensate for the foreign intruders reducing/readjusting the natural chemicals.
It therefore takes a long time for the brain to re adjust to NOT getting the influx of these chemicals to reset itself and bring back natural balance.
If you look at Benzo buddies internet site you can read stories of PAWS which copy the withdrawal drinkers get.
A good you tube site to understand what is happening is "alcohol dependence and withdrawal - Dr Matt and Dr Mike"
Danger though as this site mentions taking Benzo's as treatment for Alcohol withdrawal because clearly taking these pills is the same in a sense as taking a drink, and should not really be the way forward even though many Doctors use these horrid little pills for the withdrawal. (Don't take these evil little pills)
Benzo withdrawal is every bit as severe PAWS wise (seemingly worse) as alcohol withdrawal.
Patience is the only proper cure and for me 30 months.....
Take care
Yes it is all about time it appears. Remember that, just like Benzodiazepines (these pills target the same neurotransmitters as alcohol namely the G.A.B.A. and glutamate receptors in the brain) which throws the normal brain chemistry out, as the body, after years of regular intake comes to rely on the pills or alcohol and adjusts the naturally made brain chemicals to compensate for the foreign intruders reducing/readjusting the natural chemicals.
It therefore takes a long time for the brain to re adjust to NOT getting the influx of these chemicals to reset itself and bring back natural balance.
If you look at Benzo buddies internet site you can read stories of PAWS which copy the withdrawal drinkers get.
A good you tube site to understand what is happening is "alcohol dependence and withdrawal - Dr Matt and Dr Mike"
Danger though as this site mentions taking Benzo's as treatment for Alcohol withdrawal because clearly taking these pills is the same in a sense as taking a drink, and should not really be the way forward even though many Doctors use these horrid little pills for the withdrawal. (Don't take these evil little pills)
Benzo withdrawal is every bit as severe PAWS wise (seemingly worse) as alcohol withdrawal.
Patience is the only proper cure and for me 30 months.....
Take care
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Thanks for the thread
Hi folks,
I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. I read the whole thing. I hope that all of you are slowly seeing progress and health.
For myself, I have 90 days in two days. I am still dealing with pretty heavy PAWS: weird vision
(which apparently can happen with early recovery and withdrawal from alcohol), heavy fatigue, some anxiety, and difficulty with focusing on things. ALL of it is maybe 1/2 what it was in the first 2-6 weeks I'd say. So, I guess that is progress. Also, I have many chunks of hours where I feel chunks of hours where I feel close to normal.
But, it's also scary. For years I would feel great 1-2 weeks after stopping drinking or using. I don't recall feeling wiped out half the time, having panic attacks, etc. I guess I crossed some line in the past year or two. I also did get Librium for withdrawal, but it was for two weeks, and it was tapering down the whole time to a very low dose at the end. Three doctors said that wasn't long enough to get dependency or impact me but I don't know. Supposedly that's a safe prescription length.
Reading these threads helps me because it lets me know I'm not alone, that many feel weird into 90 days and beyond.
I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread. I read the whole thing. I hope that all of you are slowly seeing progress and health.
For myself, I have 90 days in two days. I am still dealing with pretty heavy PAWS: weird vision
(which apparently can happen with early recovery and withdrawal from alcohol), heavy fatigue, some anxiety, and difficulty with focusing on things. ALL of it is maybe 1/2 what it was in the first 2-6 weeks I'd say. So, I guess that is progress. Also, I have many chunks of hours where I feel chunks of hours where I feel close to normal.
But, it's also scary. For years I would feel great 1-2 weeks after stopping drinking or using. I don't recall feeling wiped out half the time, having panic attacks, etc. I guess I crossed some line in the past year or two. I also did get Librium for withdrawal, but it was for two weeks, and it was tapering down the whole time to a very low dose at the end. Three doctors said that wasn't long enough to get dependency or impact me but I don't know. Supposedly that's a safe prescription length.
Reading these threads helps me because it lets me know I'm not alone, that many feel weird into 90 days and beyond.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
I agree. Benzo’s do save lives from severe withdrawal. But does not take long to get addicted to them if you take them everyday. They are in theory concentrated alcohol in pill form less the drunkenness. IT is a great hypocrisy that benzo’s are the hardest prescription to get from doctors (rightly so) but you can get it in liquid form over a counter in a bar.
if the world started all over again all this ******** about how glamorous alcohol is in social settings would not exist. It would never be allowed. It would be banned. And rightly so.
if the world started all over again all this ******** about how glamorous alcohol is in social settings would not exist. It would never be allowed. It would be banned. And rightly so.
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by ant385
I agree. Benzo’s do save lives from severe withdrawal. But does not take long to get addicted to them if you take them everyday. They are in theory concentrated alcohol in pill form less the drunkenness. IT is a great hypocrisy that benzo’s are the hardest prescription to get from doctors (rightly so) but you can get it in liquid form over a counter in a bar.
if the world started all over again all this ******** about how glamorous alcohol is in social settings would not exist. It would never be allowed. It would be banned. And rightly so.
if the world started all over again all this ******** about how glamorous alcohol is in social settings would not exist. It would never be allowed. It would be banned. And rightly so.
As to benzos, they do affect the brain in a similar way to alcohol, but I'd say are worse in certain ways. One, many of them you can get physical dependency in a month of use. Almost no one gets physical (not psychological) dependency on alcohol in that time, even several months. I drank for YEARS without any real alcohol withdrawal. It only happened for the first time this recovery. Also, for many of the benzos you can get severe dependency with severe withdrawal from daily prescription even low dose use. With alcohol, if you have 1-2 beers or the same of wine every day, as many people do, it's very unlikely that you will have severe withdrawals. You may have some, if any.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 294
Originally Posted by Funki
With alcohol, if you have 1-2 beers or the same of wine every day, as many people do, it's very unlikely that you will have severe withdrawals. You may have some, if any.
There is no way that you will get addicted to alcohol if you have 2 beers every day for the rest of your life, it's not enough to damage your brain so much that you get addicted. On the other hand i got addicted to alcohol in 3,5 years of drinking , i have been using benzos on and off for 8 years , no withrawals there, i know i have been playing with fire because sometimes i would take 15 to 18 mg a day for 3-4 days in a row. I didn't take any for more than 2 months now and i'm fine , i guess i was lucky.
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by LazaB
There is no way that you will get addicted to alcohol if you have 2 beers every day for the rest of your life, it's not enough to damage your brain so much that you get addicted. On the other hand i got addicted to alcohol in 3,5 years of drinking , i have been using benzos on and off for 8 years , no withrawals there, i know i have been playing with fire because sometimes i would take 15 to 18 mg a day for 3-4 days in a row. I didn't take any for more than 2 months now and i'm fine , i guess i was lucky.
There are legions of people telling horror stories, even on this site, about them getting heavily hooked on benzos just from taking a daily prescription not at high dosage. 3-4 days isn't long enough likely to get hooked usually.
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
Trust me Diazepam has been useful when you have to go abroad to lead meetings and you are battling PAWS. I only ever take them as a last resort though when I feel very ill. If you treat Benzo’s with respect it will treat you with respect. Shame I never applied this lesson to alcohol.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
Anytime a thread threatens to veer off on a categorical “Benzos are EVIL!!!” tangent, I feel obliged to share my experience.
I have used Ativan (a benzo drug) as part of my anxiety management strategy since quitting drinking over 7 years ago. I have not experienced any of the dire consequences predicted by the benzos-are-evil crowd. The “alcohol in pill form” description doesn’t ring true to me, as the drug offers none of the effects that got me hooked on alcohol — no euphoria, no lessening of inhibitions. It simply helps me manage the reactivity of my central nervous system when it goes into full red-alert mode. While I have probably developed a minor tolerance and dependence over the years, I have not experienced any inclination toward the death spiral of rapidly increased dosage and frequency of use that I did with alcohol, and none of the mental obsession. More than simple dependence/tolerance, those qualities for me define “addiction.”
During periods that my nervous system stays relatively quiet, I can go weeks without taking any of the drug and suffer only mild discomfort.
I realize my experience of taking a benzo for a long term may be outside the norm, but I think the tendency is to assume the most extreme cases on the dramatic side of the scale represent the norm. I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom taking a benzo drug as directed in the short term offers way more benefits than risks.
I have used Ativan (a benzo drug) as part of my anxiety management strategy since quitting drinking over 7 years ago. I have not experienced any of the dire consequences predicted by the benzos-are-evil crowd. The “alcohol in pill form” description doesn’t ring true to me, as the drug offers none of the effects that got me hooked on alcohol — no euphoria, no lessening of inhibitions. It simply helps me manage the reactivity of my central nervous system when it goes into full red-alert mode. While I have probably developed a minor tolerance and dependence over the years, I have not experienced any inclination toward the death spiral of rapidly increased dosage and frequency of use that I did with alcohol, and none of the mental obsession. More than simple dependence/tolerance, those qualities for me define “addiction.”
During periods that my nervous system stays relatively quiet, I can go weeks without taking any of the drug and suffer only mild discomfort.
I realize my experience of taking a benzo for a long term may be outside the norm, but I think the tendency is to assume the most extreme cases on the dramatic side of the scale represent the norm. I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom taking a benzo drug as directed in the short term offers way more benefits than risks.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Andante
Anytime a thread threatens to veer off on a categorical “Benzos are EVIL!!!” tangent, I feel obliged to share my experience.
I have used Ativan (a benzo drug) as part of my anxiety management strategy since quitting drinking over 7 years ago. I have not experienced any of the dire consequences predicted by the benzos-are-evil crowd. The “alcohol in pill form” description doesn’t ring true to me, as the drug offers none of the effects that got me hooked on alcohol — no euphoria, no lessening of inhibitions. It simply helps me manage the reactivity of my central nervous system when it goes into full red-alert mode. While I have probably developed a minor tolerance and dependence over the years, I have not experienced any inclination toward the death spiral of rapidly increased dosage and frequency of use that I did with alcohol, and none of the mental obsession. More than simple dependence/tolerance, those qualities for me define “addiction.”
During periods that my nervous system stays relatively quiet, I can go weeks without taking any of the drug and suffer only mild discomfort.
I realize my experience of taking a benzo for a long term may be outside the norm, but I think the tendency is to assume the most extreme cases on the dramatic side of the scale represent the norm. I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom taking a benzo drug as directed in the short term offers way more benefits than risks.
I have used Ativan (a benzo drug) as part of my anxiety management strategy since quitting drinking over 7 years ago. I have not experienced any of the dire consequences predicted by the benzos-are-evil crowd. The “alcohol in pill form” description doesn’t ring true to me, as the drug offers none of the effects that got me hooked on alcohol — no euphoria, no lessening of inhibitions. It simply helps me manage the reactivity of my central nervous system when it goes into full red-alert mode. While I have probably developed a minor tolerance and dependence over the years, I have not experienced any inclination toward the death spiral of rapidly increased dosage and frequency of use that I did with alcohol, and none of the mental obsession. More than simple dependence/tolerance, those qualities for me define “addiction.”
During periods that my nervous system stays relatively quiet, I can go weeks without taking any of the drug and suffer only mild discomfort.
I realize my experience of taking a benzo for a long term may be outside the norm, but I think the tendency is to assume the most extreme cases on the dramatic side of the scale represent the norm. I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom taking a benzo drug as directed in the short term offers way more benefits than risks.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
My PAWS is really doing a number on me recently. Every time I get given work I just fall into a mess. Did anyone else have this sensitivity to stress in the workplace? I read articles saying you need to keep things simple. But that is easier said than done I am afraid 
. I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.
. I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by ant385
My PAWS is really doing a number on me recently. Every time I get given work I just fall into a mess. Did anyone else have this sensitivity to stress in the workplace? I read articles saying you need to keep things simple. But that is easier said than done I am afraid . I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.
. I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.Dont say that. You have not blown it. Just stay the course, and get some exercise and the despair and hopelessness will start to evaporate.
DONT GIVE UP!
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by ringoffire
Dont say that. You have not blown it. Just stay the course, and get some exercise and the despair and hopelessness will start to evaporate.
DONT GIVE UP!
DONT GIVE UP!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by ant385
thanks ringoffire I was having a challenging day yesterday. Today I feel like a million bucks. No PAWS at all. It’s just swings and roundabouts at the moment.
Great to hear! ! ! I go through that too. Some days I wake up feeling like a million bucks, some days I wake up a bit anxious and sweaty and have a bit of "sensation" in my wrists/hands.
But, I am just keeping on keeping on with a healthy diet and exercise, and hopefully the endorphins of that will start to override and rewire the brain properly.
Keep fighting the good fight!Â
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by ant385
My PAWS is really doing a number on me recently. Every time I get given work I just fall into a mess. Did anyone else have this sensitivity to stress in the workplace? I read articles saying you need to keep things simple. But that is easier said than done I am afraid . I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.
. I sometimes feel that this is it. I’ve blown it and will never be the old me again. Just utter despair and hopelessness.I read though from a lot on here that they went through all that and gradually they felt better, whether sooner or later.
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 142
Hey everyone.
I'm 5 weeks sober. I feel like I either have paws or advanced liver disease. Hopefully the first, of course.
I've been dizzy (not spinning more like rocking), light headed, nauseous, foggy, and anxious / irritable.
I haven't been working. I just can't function. Funny enough I was high functioning while drinking.
I don't feel sick all day but when I feel "well" I have no motivation.
This sucks.
I'm 5 weeks sober. I feel like I either have paws or advanced liver disease. Hopefully the first, of course.
I've been dizzy (not spinning more like rocking), light headed, nauseous, foggy, and anxious / irritable.
I haven't been working. I just can't function. Funny enough I was high functioning while drinking.
I don't feel sick all day but when I feel "well" I have no motivation.
This sucks.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by Mamatembo
Hey everyone.
I'm 5 weeks sober. I feel like I either have paws or advanced liver disease. Hopefully the first, of course.
I've been dizzy (not spinning more like rocking), light headed, nauseous, foggy, and anxious / irritable.
I haven't been working. I just can't function. Funny enough I was high functioning while drinking.
I don't feel sick all day but when I feel "well" I have no motivation.
This sucks.
I'm 5 weeks sober. I feel like I either have paws or advanced liver disease. Hopefully the first, of course.
I've been dizzy (not spinning more like rocking), light headed, nauseous, foggy, and anxious / irritable.
I haven't been working. I just can't function. Funny enough I was high functioning while drinking.
I don't feel sick all day but when I feel "well" I have no motivation.
This sucks.
I am not a doctor. But I can say with some reasonable confidence that anxiety, feeling light headed, foggy brain etc are not symptoms of liver failure. You will know if your liver is failing as it will not be able to break down bile anymore giving your skin a yellowish tinge.
The symptoms are probably PAWS. I had most of these symptoms. I remember in my first few weeks I was dry heaving every day. I did not realise I had PAWS until much later. I never attributed it to my alcohol abuse. I just thought I was having a nervous breakdown.
Well done on the 5 weeks.
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
hi, me again posted this recently on an older thread. But thought I’d share here as it is somewhat more active. Might be useful.
know this is a pretty inactive thread but I know those going through hell will probably come across this ... first a bit of advice. If you are going through hell. Keep going.
I am now 6 months sober. Tbh I did not drink like you know George best. Averaged around 60 units a week but mostly in hard 3 day binges and a few in the week. Rarely a sober day.
symptoms have been hell.
- sensitivity to stress
- chronic worry about work tasks
- mimic of obsessive compulsive disorder - intrusive thoughts.
- mimic of generalised anxiety disorder
- making stupid mistakes
- brain fog
- brain zaps that feel like electricity in the brain that flows through my body.
- insomnia in early weeks.
as write this (note I just typed ‘right this’ so not out of the woods yet ) I have noticed improvement in all areas. I have been scoring my PAWS 1 - 10. 1 being awful - to point of tears and 10 bring feeling amazing!
this a snippet of how I have felt over month 6. I thought I’d share as it might be helpful to know this is what PAWS waves look like. And remember my scores was a lot lower in prior months. 14/04 - 1/10
15/04 - 3/10
16/04 - 4/10
17/04 - 6/10
18/04 - 2/10
19/04 - 2/10
20/04 - 5/10
21/04 - 9/10
22/04 - 7/10
23/04 - 8/10
24/04 - 10/10
25/04 - 9/10
26/04 - 5/10
27/04 - 7/10
28/04 - 4/10
29/04 - 8/10
30/04 - 2/10
01/05 - 2/10
02/05 - 3/10
03/05 - 3/10
04/05 - 7/10
05/05 - 4/10
06/10 - 6/10
07/10 - 9/10
08/10 - 10/10
09/10 - 9/10
10/10 - 5/10
11/10 - 6/10
know this is a pretty inactive thread but I know those going through hell will probably come across this ... first a bit of advice. If you are going through hell. Keep going.
I am now 6 months sober. Tbh I did not drink like you know George best. Averaged around 60 units a week but mostly in hard 3 day binges and a few in the week. Rarely a sober day.
symptoms have been hell.
- sensitivity to stress
- chronic worry about work tasks
- mimic of obsessive compulsive disorder - intrusive thoughts.
- mimic of generalised anxiety disorder
- making stupid mistakes
- brain fog
- brain zaps that feel like electricity in the brain that flows through my body.
- insomnia in early weeks.
as write this (note I just typed ‘right this’ so not out of the woods yet ) I have noticed improvement in all areas. I have been scoring my PAWS 1 - 10. 1 being awful - to point of tears and 10 bring feeling amazing!
this a snippet of how I have felt over month 6. I thought I’d share as it might be helpful to know this is what PAWS waves look like. And remember my scores was a lot lower in prior months. 14/04 - 1/10
15/04 - 3/10
16/04 - 4/10
17/04 - 6/10
18/04 - 2/10
19/04 - 2/10
20/04 - 5/10
21/04 - 9/10
22/04 - 7/10
23/04 - 8/10
24/04 - 10/10
25/04 - 9/10
26/04 - 5/10
27/04 - 7/10
28/04 - 4/10
29/04 - 8/10
30/04 - 2/10
01/05 - 2/10
02/05 - 3/10
03/05 - 3/10
04/05 - 7/10
05/05 - 4/10
06/10 - 6/10
07/10 - 9/10
08/10 - 10/10
09/10 - 9/10
10/10 - 5/10
11/10 - 6/10
Member
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by drycucumber77
I am going through all of this now. It has been hell and has been 7 months for me too. I was wondering how much longer PAWS went for you? Hopefully you get this message, I appreciate it has been a couple of years....
my point is hang in there. Don’t drink. Your brain will always reach balance. It just takes time.
also I recommend ashwagandha KSM-66. Really helps reduce stress. And also I keep hearing Acamprosate eliminates a lot of PAWS symptoms. It speeds up the balancing of neurotransmitters apparently.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 11
Hi All,
And time is the only true healing method. As I have said before I have been sober now for over 30 months and gradually getting to feel more normal and "just ordinary" more often.
My anxiety and feeling "Odd" have eased off (thank goodness) and my perspective towards people situations and life having become more and more (ordinary) normal.
As discussed, the GABA neurotransmitters need to naturally be produced to allow you to feel "calm" and at ease, but it takes a long while particularly if like me, I used alcohol to artificially produce GABA to feel (or suppress feelings more the truth) OK.
Best guide I have read that seems to apply is...... it takes one month for every year you drank to recover...that for me is 45 months so, a little bit further to go. Valium is also a GABA producer which in effect has the same feeling as drinking and whilst it clearly helps short term to create artificial calm, it will also more often than not cause withdrawal issues when stopping, just like booze.
Take care all.
And time is the only true healing method. As I have said before I have been sober now for over 30 months and gradually getting to feel more normal and "just ordinary" more often.
My anxiety and feeling "Odd" have eased off (thank goodness) and my perspective towards people situations and life having become more and more (ordinary) normal.
As discussed, the GABA neurotransmitters need to naturally be produced to allow you to feel "calm" and at ease, but it takes a long while particularly if like me, I used alcohol to artificially produce GABA to feel (or suppress feelings more the truth) OK.
Best guide I have read that seems to apply is...... it takes one month for every year you drank to recover...that for me is 45 months so, a little bit further to go. Valium is also a GABA producer which in effect has the same feeling as drinking and whilst it clearly helps short term to create artificial calm, it will also more often than not cause withdrawal issues when stopping, just like booze.
Take care all.
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