awuh1

I have a very hard time with statements like "whatever works for you is what you should do", and "if moderation management helps you to stop destroying your life and the lives around you who am I to argue that it isn't good enough?" Think about it. Exactly when did it stop working for thousands of drunk drivers who have killed innocent individuals. Was it day before the crash? Was it the hour before they took their first drink that day? Was it their third drink? Perhaps it was one second before the impact? Exactly when? When does it stop working? It's so easy to say "whatever works for you is what you should do". But if you can only define when it stops working by disaster, then statements like these are totally meaningless.

JeffreyAK

Maybe you can only define when it stops working by disaster, but that's you and your own story. There are lots of other people with different stories that don't have all that drama. Not everyone goes all the way down the hole, in fact most problem drinkers sort it out long before they break out in handcuffs, either making an effort to moderate and succeeding until it becomes automatic, or quitting.

What is your alternative, that every single person who ever has a drinking problem must quit forever? For some of us, that's the solution (it is for me and I'm very happy with that solution), but for vast numbers of people it isn't.

ScottFromWI

You could apply your same exact logic to AA, AVRT, Life Ring, or any other sobriety plan Awuh. Plenty of people leave AA or AVRT or Inpatient rehab and begin drinking again. And theoretically they could get in a car and get in a crash just the same as someone who is practicing moderation management. That's not a fault of the plan, it's a problem with the individual. And every individual is different. There is no "one solution" for everyone.

fini

butbutbut...the problem i see with "whatever works for you" is that we don't know until it fails. we CAN'T really know except in retrospect.

which is why it's not a bad idea to see what's "worked" for others and do that.

ScottFromWI

Let's be clear here. Moderation Management is not a "recovery" method in the sense that our forum defines recovery. It is probably best categorized as a "harm reduction" method in that it promotes moderate/controlled drinking. By rule, we do not promote those types of methods here in the forum as they promote continued drinking, albeit at reduced levels. This particular thread was actually not even about the program itself, but about the founder and her unfortunate death.

Our forum is here to discuss ALL methods of recovery and help each other find ways to do so. So in that sense, "whatever works" means we help each other find a plan that works. And clearly there is no one plan that works for everyone, or any plan that is perfect.

freshstart57

Fini, I think by the same reasoning, we can't see what's worked for others until and unless they die sober. Only then can we say, well that sure did the trick. They got sober and stayed that way.

Surely you know folks who managed to convince others that 'what they had' was something worth wanting. And then threw it away, or tried to, in order to resume their race to the bottom.

We surely are in this as individuals, each looking for what will work for ourselves. And reason, honesty and acceptance are going to be our best guides.

awuh1

Jeffrery, People who can successfully moderate don't end up on web sites like this reading threads about moderation. They are nearly always folks who are seeking a solution to their problem.

What is my alternative? The alternative is for a individuals to take a long hard look at their drinking history so they can accurately judge the magnitude of the risks they are taking, not only with their own lives but with the lives of the innocent people around them. Employing the simplistic 20-20 hindsight logic of phrases like 'it works until it doesn't' does not cut it.

Scott, my post (which you quoted in yours) has nothing to do with AA. You seem to be reading something into it. I believe that moderation has nothing at all to do with any recovery method, because if you are always able to successfully moderate, then there is nothing to recover from.

JeffreyAK

awuh1, your solution to your drinking problem (which means, you suffered negative consequences) was to abstain by a particular method that presumably works for you. Your method did not and would never have worked for me, but who am I to judge - it works for you and that's all that matters. We can both remain sober for the rest of our lives, if that's what we want to do, following separate paths. What matters is, we remain sober, because drinking is no longer an option for us.

There are many other people, in fact most people with drinking problems (which again means, suffering significant negative consequences), who find ways to end the problems without permanent abstinence. If it works for them (ends the negative consequences), who am I to judge. I'm certainly not going to look down my nose at someone for succeeding (they get to decide what that means) in a way that doesn't work for me.

The dicey area is, just about everyone with a drinking problem, including those for whom moderation will never work, thinks they are in the second category. That's part of the lies our addict voices tell us, that we can find some way to moderate and be normies again. Beyond some point in the addiction progression, it's no longer an option, but I've never yet met anyone in addiction recovery circles (people like you and I, who abstain) who didn't try the enforced moderation approach first.

I don't interact much with the people who suffered negative consequences from drinking, and found a way to keep drinking without the consequences. Sometimes it's just a phase, a common one in colleges for example, but in any case I know they are out there in large numbers. I can't fault them for ending the consequences and finding productive paths in life that are different from my path.

ScottFromWI

My post has nothing to do with AA specifically either - please re-read it.

I'll remind everyone once again that personal arguments are not allowed in the public forms. Because of that and the fact that we do not promote moderation of any kind in the forums, this thread has been closed. The original point was discussed well and it has gone far off-track.