Live2FAD

I'd like to put this note out for all AA members. I think AA has done thousands of miracles where neither physicians nor psychiatrists could succeed. However, this is one where it sucked... where all three of the positions fail in attempting to set their own positions of "greatness".

I know a guy tonight who went to a "Book Study" with AA... they were reading Dr. Bob's opinion (I hope that's correct LOL). This man has been struggling with alcoholism for his entire life, and has been involved with AA for about 19 years off and on (13 of it "sober).

This man had the conviction, only when CALLED UPON (he did not offer his opinion, but it was asked of him) to mention that AA has made no advancement with the medical nor psychological professions since that opinion was offered nearly 80 years ago.

His opinion was that those professions simply treat the symptoms (withdrawal, social re-repositioning, a redefinition of goals, etc), and then release.

He was shot down by the moderator. He then kindly shook the moderator's hand and left.

What bothered me most is the fact that this man has been fighting addiction for all this time and has not yet surrendered, yet an AA moderator was so willing to dismiss him?

Oh -- and a side not -- about 15 "old timers" met him in the parking lot to make sure "he" was ok.

My question remains: what about the young lady that picked up her 24 hour chip tonight?

Austin4Wyo

I've only been to a moderated meeting a handful of times, mostly because I get more out of open shares, with a polite nudge toward solutions when necessary.

What about the girl with her first day? I guess I'm not understanding what your issue is. You presume these guys are missing her plight due to their own visions of greatness?

Was the girl distressed? Was their reason to assume she needed something more?

I hate to speculate about it when I wasn't there, so I guess I'll just step back and remember that none of us are perfect, with priorities to match at times. The world is rarely as I want to interpret it, and sometimes, indeed, MOST times, it's best to just let it sort itself out without my assistance.

"When in doubt, say nothing, and move on." -Arthur C. Clarke

ScottFromWI

Everyone has opinions and AA members are also people, and people make mistakes. This situation is not inherent to AA, it's simply a dynamic of the human experience.

CAPTAINZING2000

We change the format of our meetings when a newcomer is present. If this was the first meeting ever for the girl, we would have had a first step meeting.
I know some groups would have had several women take her to a private room and talk to the girl privately if they don't change the meeting format.

Berrybean

I dunno - I suppose old timers have their off days as well. Isn't it a good thing that lots of people wanted to check he was okay in the car park after the meeting? (It would've been inappropriate for all those old timer guys had followed the new girl to her car anyway, so why not support the person it IS appropriate for them to support).

I suppose all we can do is to make sure that we're doing what we think is right. It's easy to get sidelined busying ourselves with taking other people's inventory, and it sounds like those old timers understand each other and will rub along okay.

Did you chat with the new lady about her first and next 24 hours? Hope she's doing okay.

tomsteve

when i put people on a pedastal i set myself up to get hurt . this statement
"where all three of the positions fail in attempting to set their own positions of "greatness"."
tells me ya may either have old timers on a pedastal or expectations.
we are human-warts and all.
the man in question, may have a history with the group that your not aware of. the best option there would be to ask the chairperson himself why he stopped the man from speaking. reads like i prolly woulda stopped him,too.


did YOU reach out to the women?

the doctors opinion-in the front of the bb- is from doc silkworth.

Gottalife

AA might be a great organisation but it doesn't perform miracles. We leave that the the God(s) of our understanding.

Forward to second edition states "of the remainder (25%) many showed improvement. 13 years out of 19 is better than nothing.

I wonder what a moderated meeting is like. We alkies have never been much good at moderation

Ken33xx

Sounds like meeting weirdness. Plenty of dysfunctional and/or emotional vampires in AA.

But what about the young lady picking up her 24-hour chip?

Maybe it was a good thing for her to see AA meetings aren`t always peaches and cream. Not sure how healthy it is for the newcomer to think everyone is their friend only to find out later a lot of the smiling was superficial.

Recovery999

Hopefully someone approached the 24 hour lady. IMO, it's okay for men to approach a female newcomer in the event that no (or few) women are available.

Austin4Wyo

Love this. The expectation of others to do something that I didn't do myself was a major issue in my relapses. Often, it was a case of "I need help, but here's how I expect to be helped, and here's how I'll avoid the responsibility of accepting the help."

I guess if I would have been at that meeting, here's what I'd be seeing about myself at this point...

Both the distress over the old timers and the new woman are outside issues. Others could have, maybe even should have, but the fact remain that if I did NOT, nothikng changes. Where, then, does the real issue lie?

I keep my soapbox in front of my mirror. Generally speaking, if'n someone is in need of my preaching, it's that guy in the mirror.

SoberCAH

You make some very helpful observations in your post.

Some folks in AA understand tolerance and some don't.

Old timers can act up like this and, in so doing, impugn the program by their examples.

I am sure that I have done it myself.

The moderator of a meeting doesn't get the teacher's edition of the Big Book or the 12 and 12.

There was a huge argument which masqueraded as a group conscience immediately following the first AA meeting I went to upon exiting the treatment center.

And I went back to it for 20 years in spite of its rather inauspicious start, because I was afraid I would drink if I didn't.

Perhaps the first-timer at the meeting you attended will make the same decision.

Nonetheless, these types of incidents are an embarassment.

I hope you keep going to this meeting or find another better one.

Gottalife

We have a couple of meetings where problems are developing because the old timers are staying away. One was held in an institution premises, and their clients were regular attenders. It was an excellent 12 step group, not controlled by the institution. The old timers stayed away leaving the meeting in the hands of one member with a grave mental disorder and another guy who has been around AA as long as I have but drinks every week and pops pills like there is not tomorrow. The intitution decided the meeting had become too sick and stopped sending its clients, the two AAs voted to shut it down and that was that.

The second meeting is in the same neighbourhood, receives the same clients from the institutionand the same situation is developing. The old timers are staying away leaving it to two or three members and one older member to keep the meeting on message. There are upto 30 clients attending from the rehab.The meeting gets pretty screwy until someone who knows about AA meetings brings it back on track. If it continues to go down hill, no doubt the institution will withdraw their clients and AA will have failed to reach out again.

That's what happens when the experience strength and hope of older recovered members is withdrawn from the group. It forgets why it exists and self destructs.

Fly N Buy

The only thing that is clear to me about this thread is none of us including the OP were there.

I find it difficult enough to understand what I witness let alone trying to interpret what other were not witness to

tell your friend to keep coming badk

Gottalife

Gosh mate that's like the emperor has no clothes! So obvious, glad you pointed it out.

Parker0065

I'm currently in my 3rd attempt(100 days) with AA in stopping drinking and making more progress than ever. One thing I learned for myself in those first two attempts, and this is just for me, is that no matter how long you have sober, we all only have today.
As a former military man I really liked to put everyone in nice neat little boxes. I use to look at the "old timers" as high ranking officers which means for me I would simply salute them and move on quickly, lol!!
What I've learned is they put their pants on just like everyone else, are recovering drunks just like myself, and have just today the same as myself.
I respect the fact that they have strung together a lot more 24 hours than I have and I do listen to them in meetings because they are going to help keep me sober.

My current sponsor has over 40 years and is the nicest, most giving, humble guy you could ever meet and it's a big reason I asked him to be my sponsor. I want the peace and serenity he has. There are a couple other older members in my home group that are basically the exact opposite of him and some of that is personality but even though I don't want my sobriety to mimic theirs I still listen to what they have to say in meetings because no matter how "dry drunk" they come off, they still have managed to stay sober for two or three decades.

One other comment I'll make is I prefer the "old timers" who talk about we "All" just have today. I've heard other "old timers" constantly talk about the number of "Years In Sobriety" they have likes it's a Medal of Honor,,,,oh by the way did they forget to mention over and over and over how many years in sobriety they have, lol!

I'm just kind of making a joke but if you really listen to some people it definitely comes out and I think over time each individual finds who they should follow in sobriety. Some people just simply want to be miserable in sobriety and to their credit they find a way to string together a lot of time in that misery to become "old timers".
For myself I strive for another path and follow the example of those whom have found real peace and serenity in sobriety.

CAPTAINZING2000

Good point!!

When I first came into AA I wanted their length of sobriety, I didn't want to be like them though. Long term sobriety doesn't always remove the character defects.

vinnietoo

"Some folks in AA understand tolerance and some don't.
Old timers can act up like this and, in so doing, impugn the program by their examples.
I am sure that I have done it myself."

Very well said! And much to learn in these three sentences.

Let us not forget.. Acceptance is the answer to ALL of my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation- some fact of my life- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept my life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in ME and in MY attitudes.

Tis simple but not easy,
Merry Christmas To All and to all a Good Night!
Vinny

SoberCAH

My first AA mentor (never officially a sponsor) told me that, to become an old-timer, the only 2 requirements were to not drink and to not die.

Personally, I like meetings with a good mix of old-timers, folks with a few years who are working their way through the 12 steps for the first time, newcomers.

I even go to meetings in the inner city where many of the attendees are there on a court-ordered basis.

Even they may hear something which resonates, so I try to direct my comments to them (without preaching).

DayTrader

IMO, moderators should shut down some people......and I don't care if it's a newcomer, a constant relapser, a meeting regular, an old timer, me, the founder of the group or the wisest AA'r in the land. The individual is NOT as important as they (and I include myself in this) think or wish they are. The first tradition deals directly with this issue. I understand if it doesn't make sense but in my experience, taking my eyes off the group and focusing on the wants of the individual and putting those wants ahead of what's good for the group as a whole has proven deadly for the meeting and even the recoveries of many of the ppl involved.

Ken33xx

Yeah but shares are often subjective. What you or I find offensive others might not.

I agree if a person has been drinking they should be asked to not to share and to speak with someone after the meeting. However, other than a person drinking or going on after a timer has gone off it`s a tricky situation.

One of the weirdest things I`ve seen was a guy who started to play a song from a cassette player he brought. This went on for about a minute and he was asked by the chairperson to shut it off.