gratitude
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
gratitude
Being grateful is not just something that settles on you after you get your way: it is a decision to lead your life a way that is easier than the other way.
Being virtuous appears to be a question of abstinence, but it is actually a method of receiving more than you receive the other way.
Thinking the right way appears to be attained after a long work process in which you seek help and are corrected, brought into a healthy state, after which point one's thought's correct. But the work process is the actual moment to moment thinking itself.
Do people who never suffer, not suffer because they already know these things? Is that was suffering is: coming to an understanding of commonplace truisms that have lost their meaning over the years?
Being virtuous appears to be a question of abstinence, but it is actually a method of receiving more than you receive the other way.
Thinking the right way appears to be attained after a long work process in which you seek help and are corrected, brought into a healthy state, after which point one's thought's correct. But the work process is the actual moment to moment thinking itself.
Do people who never suffer, not suffer because they already know these things? Is that was suffering is: coming to an understanding of commonplace truisms that have lost their meaning over the years?
now's the time
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,181
What you're saying connects well with certain schools of Buddhist thought. Release from suffering comes from the constant work of practicing mindfulness, creating virtue, and letting go of attachment. Meditation is where you build discipline in those areas, and then you bring that discipline into your daily life and choose, in each moment, to perceive and react to the world in a way that's in line with those concepts.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
I would think that all people suffer in some way or another, right? And some of us suffer more (much more) than others, no doubt, as life isn't "fair."
From what I understand of it, suffering is what leads to temperance or virtue, assuming, as a result of our suffering, we take the "right" path to correct what we can in order to avoid it next time, rather than succumb and allow it to warp the mind/spirit.
And I would think that wisdom is arriving at some state of less suffering, both by avoiding those things we can and acting in the ways necessary to alleviate suffering, and also by coming to a state of acceptance of those states/circumstances we can't change - as when people choose "mind over matter" or "accepting the things we cannot change" or "pain is unavoidable; suffering is a choice."
Gratitude is perhaps arrived at by making a choice to focus on the good in our lives, and not so much on the bad.
So, it seems that gratitude would alleviate a certain amount of suffering.
I'm trying to understand this: Are you asking if suffering sometimes happens because people forget over time how they learned to do whatever it took to avoid certain suffering? Or they took for granted that doing X would cause resultant suffering?
From what I understand of it, suffering is what leads to temperance or virtue, assuming, as a result of our suffering, we take the "right" path to correct what we can in order to avoid it next time, rather than succumb and allow it to warp the mind/spirit.
And I would think that wisdom is arriving at some state of less suffering, both by avoiding those things we can and acting in the ways necessary to alleviate suffering, and also by coming to a state of acceptance of those states/circumstances we can't change - as when people choose "mind over matter" or "accepting the things we cannot change" or "pain is unavoidable; suffering is a choice."
Gratitude is perhaps arrived at by making a choice to focus on the good in our lives, and not so much on the bad.
So, it seems that gratitude would alleviate a certain amount of suffering.
I'm trying to understand this:
Do people who never suffer, not suffer because they already know these things? Is that was suffering is: coming to an understanding of commonplace truisms that have lost their meaning over the years?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
When I think about these things that people say, and I've heard them over and over again, my mind is just blown when they sink in a bit deeper than before. For example, the gratitude list. I cringe. But maybe this is the suggestion of someone who already understands gratitude, either through having suffered, or raised with wisdom. The work is to bring someone from 0 to 1.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by davaidavai 
When I think about these things that people say, and I've heard them over and over again, my mind is just blown when they sink in a bit deeper than before.
It's been pretty mind blowing for me these past 2.5 years sober because I've realized how many of those things "they say" are true, and just why they are true, after being in certain situations. Going through life sober is mind blowing For those of us who drank early, like early 20's or whatever, our entire adult lives have been lived under the influence, so I had these crazy moments and epiphanies and continue to have them - all that stuff people said, all I read, all these words and sayings, some of the things I studied ... they actually mean something, lol. I think, for me (and no doubt, many of us here), it's even more unsettling, coming from a dysfunctional family, where when people said something, they didn't necessarily mean it. And as a kid, you know this. You intuit it. I did anyway. And so there is no real "truth" and no authenticity in families like this, in alcoholic, dysfunctional families. Everything gets warped.
So, I definitely get where you are coming from here, about the mind being blown from suddenly "wising up" in sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Auckland
Posts: 2,548
Yes, being brought up in an alcoholic dysfunctional family gave me a very skewed take on the word 'gratitude'. The word has negative connotations for me, perhaps because I was snarled and screamed at daily for being a selfish, ungrateful little so and so, and also because of the warped religious view I grew up with of what God supposedly expects from people - some kind of twisted enjoyment in servility and sycophantic behaviour from his minions. (I do have ideas, as it happens, just not those ones). The word 'gratitude' (not the feeling) has become associated with abuse of power, debt, obligation, and unworthiness. I don't know this, of course, I'm just guessing. But perhaps that's why I don't relate well to the word per se, yet I can see it is a beautiful experience, or can be, and I feel it often.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,614
A thousand times YES to what Shabby said.
I wish that I could have put my finger on the reaction I have at people throwing the word gratitude at me all the time. Substitute alcoholic parents for abusive/alcoholic/ god knows what... and minus the religion.
Thank you Shabby moment of realization.
That I have every good reason to have that reaction. Validation. I'm glad I got this little nugget while sober.
I have no words of wisdom davai... I'm very upset at life. I do hope that you have put down the bottle though and will join us again, I know I like it when you are around and taking care.
I wish that I could have put my finger on the reaction I have at people throwing the word gratitude at me all the time. Substitute alcoholic parents for abusive/alcoholic/ god knows what... and minus the religion.
Thank you Shabby moment of realization.
That I have every good reason to have that reaction. Validation. I'm glad I got this little nugget while sober.
I have no words of wisdom davai... I'm very upset at life. I do hope that you have put down the bottle though and will join us again, I know I like it when you are around and taking care.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 165
Deep Post! I like it! I agree w/ member who wrote that everyone probably suffers in some way? It could be hidden mental suffering, psychological.Ive learned much through awful suffering ive withstood. If U ask me, cuz my life has been...alot of suffering. But then hopefully makes U stronger and U learn from it? Thats how its been for Me, at least! Yeah, and Life is constant Work, too! And thinking! I think too much, A kind of Peacefulness of Mind, i really like....
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
DD,
What a great thread, thanks for starting it.
For me, unlike productivity, gratitude comes easily. Maybe because I was not told when I was young how grateful I should be very often, although there were other issues.
But I suffer a lot. And for me one of those aha moments that Soberpatmus describes so well was when I wrapped my mind around acceptance as one of the keys to peace of mind.
To truly accept what you cannot change is hard, but so important to alleviate suffering or, perish the thought, be happy.
For example, I spent my whole life trying to make people like me, guess what, not possible. Not within my control.
But to do those things things to make me like myself, very possible. Within my control.
To make that change would be priceless, but not easy. Not easy at all.
What a great thread, thanks for starting it.
For me, unlike productivity, gratitude comes easily. Maybe because I was not told when I was young how grateful I should be very often, although there were other issues.
But I suffer a lot. And for me one of those aha moments that Soberpatmus describes so well was when I wrapped my mind around acceptance as one of the keys to peace of mind.
To truly accept what you cannot change is hard, but so important to alleviate suffering or, perish the thought, be happy.
For example, I spent my whole life trying to make people like me, guess what, not possible. Not within my control.
But to do those things things to make me like myself, very possible. Within my control.
To make that change would be priceless, but not easy. Not easy at all.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
i like the negative aspect that shabby mentioned. gratitude can really all to often be thrown in someones face as a put down. Your ungrateful and you should be etc.. its like no matter how grateful you are someone can easily shame you with how ungrateful you are about something else then turn around and use that to control you with etc.. It really taints what gratitude is all about.
and well when your squashed as a child told your an ungreatful, fat, pig, glutton, slob, POS, $hit kid , etc..... its really hard to figure out how in the heck your suppost to be greatful for anything. beucase all your told is just how crappy you and everything about you is so what is there to be grateful for? its like your trained to just focus on all the bad all the time rather then ever seeing the good..
good god maybe thats why i'm such a negative Bitch by nature lol. Just trained to be that way?
and well when your squashed as a child told your an ungreatful, fat, pig, glutton, slob, POS, $hit kid , etc..... its really hard to figure out how in the heck your suppost to be greatful for anything. beucase all your told is just how crappy you and everything about you is so what is there to be grateful for? its like your trained to just focus on all the bad all the time rather then ever seeing the good..
good god maybe thats why i'm such a negative Bitch by nature lol. Just trained to be that way?
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
I was told a few times I was "ungrateful" by a wicked aunt, so I must've just shrugged it off as more of her craziness I thought ... wth is she talking about? I never *felt* ungrateful.
I can see though how it can be used against a person. Humans seem to be able to reach in and twist one another right where it hurts.
I thought ... wth is she talking about? I never *felt* ungrateful. I can see though how it can be used against a person. Humans seem to be able to reach in and twist one another right where it hurts.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,614
It's different when it happens on a daily basis by your family soberpotamus.
Also was guilt tripped about food and clothing, which I thought was the parent's responsibility actually or they go to jail? The word "ingrate" was always used.
Also was guilt tripped about food and clothing, which I thought was the parent's responsibility actually or they go to jail? The word "ingrate" was always used.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Sleepie, as I said above, we all suffer. Just in different ways.
I wouldn't want to compare my suffering to someone else's. Most people have no idea how much the person next to them has suffered, so keep in mind, the person next to you might actually have suffered more than you.
It helped me to read Viktor Frankl.
I wouldn't want to compare my suffering to someone else's. Most people have no idea how much the person next to them has suffered, so keep in mind, the person next to you might actually have suffered more than you.
It helped me to read Viktor Frankl.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
Originally Posted by sleepie
It's different when it happens on a daily basis by your family soberpotamus.
Also was guilt tripped about food and clothing, which I thought was the parent's responsibility actually or they go to jail? The word "ingrate" was always used.
Also was guilt tripped about food and clothing, which I thought was the parent's responsibility actually or they go to jail? The word "ingrate" was always used.
:;facepalm::
gotta love the guilt trips. and you get beat down enough you start to believe it. then they wonder why you always screw up its like umm cuase i feel like a screw up i'm never told otherwise!
I dunno whats worse verbal or physical abuse? verbal seems to linger long and cut pretty deep! i could sit through just about any beating i got. I remmeber being asked if i'd prefer to be beat or grounded I'd always take the beating i ifugred then its done an dover with. I'd promptly then get beat and grounded. and then lectured something along the lines of "you think your so smart...."
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Just as none of us can really know anothers pain. I don't think any of us can really know someone elses gratitude.
I'm grateful to be alive. I think thats the most honest, least bombastic way I can put it.
I am genuinely grateful to be given the next 24 hours and another chance to hopefully make a difference in the world.
If that makes some folks gag, so be it
D
I'm grateful to be alive. I think thats the most honest, least bombastic way I can put it.
I am genuinely grateful to be given the next 24 hours and another chance to hopefully make a difference in the world.
If that makes some folks gag, so be it
D
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
Gratitude is often used to put people in their place. Just be grateful, etc. I don't like that either. My parents were never like that, but my mom's gratitude wasn't real. She was just struggling after someone else's privileged position.
As someone who screws everything up, the stress and general sense of unwellness of my life permeates everything, so when someone tells me to make a gratitude list, this isn't useful. It's like a 6 foot 2 inch tall dark handsome rich man the son of a rich man, with a hipster beard and skinny jeans who talks about kale, telling me how easy it is to get a girlfriend. When thriving people enjoin suffering people to gratitude, it's like asking them to give even more. I have to give everything else away by purporting to be grateful for feeling sick and lonely and lost. Thanks!
For the bereft, maybe gratitude is better explained as an act of taking. You're taking your little moments of piece and quiet back and starting there and being grateful for those moments, for the walk in the park, for the inner quiet you can get when you bring your mind back to a center point, for a sense of newness. Maybe it's better that it's a private thing because as soon as you start explaining it, it becomes about stuff, things.
As someone who screws everything up, the stress and general sense of unwellness of my life permeates everything, so when someone tells me to make a gratitude list, this isn't useful. It's like a 6 foot 2 inch tall dark handsome rich man the son of a rich man, with a hipster beard and skinny jeans who talks about kale, telling me how easy it is to get a girlfriend. When thriving people enjoin suffering people to gratitude, it's like asking them to give even more. I have to give everything else away by purporting to be grateful for feeling sick and lonely and lost. Thanks!
For the bereft, maybe gratitude is better explained as an act of taking. You're taking your little moments of piece and quiet back and starting there and being grateful for those moments, for the walk in the park, for the inner quiet you can get when you bring your mind back to a center point, for a sense of newness. Maybe it's better that it's a private thing because as soon as you start explaining it, it becomes about stuff, things.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
