gratitude
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Beautiful post, davai. What it feels like to receive and allow yourself to feel pleasure rather than being grateful *to* someone or something is a different concept or a different aspect. The horse as opposed to the cart, sort of.
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Originally Posted by davaidavai 
Gratitude is often used to put people in their place. Just be grateful, etc. I don't like that either. My parents were never like that, but my mom's gratitude wasn't real. She was just struggling after someone else's privileged position.
As someone who screws everything up, the stress and general sense of unwellness of my life permeates everything, so when someone tells me to make a gratitude list, this isn't useful. It's like a 6 foot 2 inch tall dark handsome rich man the son of a rich man, with a hipster beard and skinny jeans who talks about kale, telling me how easy it is to get a girlfriend. When thriving people enjoin suffering people to gratitude, it's like asking them to give even more. I have to give everything else away by purporting to be grateful for feeling sick and lonely and lost. Thanks!
For the bereft, maybe gratitude is better explained as an act of taking. You're taking your little moments of piece and quiet back and starting there and being grateful for those moments, for the walk in the park, for the inner quiet you can get when you bring your mind back to a center point, for a sense of newness. Maybe it's better that it's a private thing because as soon as you start explaining it, it becomes about stuff, things.
As someone who screws everything up, the stress and general sense of unwellness of my life permeates everything, so when someone tells me to make a gratitude list, this isn't useful. It's like a 6 foot 2 inch tall dark handsome rich man the son of a rich man, with a hipster beard and skinny jeans who talks about kale, telling me how easy it is to get a girlfriend. When thriving people enjoin suffering people to gratitude, it's like asking them to give even more. I have to give everything else away by purporting to be grateful for feeling sick and lonely and lost. Thanks!
For the bereft, maybe gratitude is better explained as an act of taking. You're taking your little moments of piece and quiet back and starting there and being grateful for those moments, for the walk in the park, for the inner quiet you can get when you bring your mind back to a center point, for a sense of newness. Maybe it's better that it's a private thing because as soon as you start explaining it, it becomes about stuff, things.
I had to change the way I looked at things to recover. The negative thinking worked great for addiction, but it works terribly for recovery. The lists don't even have to be about stuff or things either. Sometimes you can just be grateful for being alive, being sober, spending time with loved ones, or why you're not drinking, etc.
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Thanks TS - I wasn't fishing for compliments tho 
Davai, my point was my gratitude is my gratitude, it's shaped by my experiences and my understanding of the world I live in...
I'd never expect or want anyone to change what they do simply because of what I do, and I'd hope the reverse is true
I think a private journal, recording all the things you find worthy of recording, is a good idea
Davai, my point was my gratitude is my gratitude, it's shaped by my experiences and my understanding of the world I live in...
I'd never expect or want anyone to change what they do simply because of what I do, and I'd hope the reverse is true
I think a private journal, recording all the things you find worthy of recording, is a good idea
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I had forgotten Frankl's book and it just what I need to read right now; anyone who has not read it is so worth it.
Whether you agree or not, it changes the way most readers think in a positive way.
Strongly recommended.
Whether you agree or not, it changes the way most readers think in a positive way.
Strongly recommended.
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I understand gratitude and gratitude lists and I think it's fine, so I don't mean to sound critical of anyone else's experience. I'm just trying to get from 0 to 1, to try to explain why I often times don't relate to gratitude and then suddenly I felt the sensation last week after drinking for a few days. Or was it actually gratitude?
Gratitude is an interesting semantic question. Is it a political expression implying a relationship with a parent? A higher power? As such, at least in the historical sense, it is imbued with the sense of power relationship. Of people trained over the centuries to express fealty. Responding negatively to 'gratitude' isn't responding negatively to the idea of another person's intimate experience. It's a rebellion from constraints.
But what happened to me was that after several days of drinking airplane nips and beer, I went to a zendo and I liked it, conceived of bringing my mind back to the present moment and thinking as 'the work.' I'm very good at focusing on things, but no one has ever told me what to focus on. And sitting there, for moments I felt like a little kid sitting out on the sidewalk in front of our house. The sense of newness, of beginning, and possibility.
Gratitude is an interesting semantic question. Is it a political expression implying a relationship with a parent? A higher power? As such, at least in the historical sense, it is imbued with the sense of power relationship. Of people trained over the centuries to express fealty. Responding negatively to 'gratitude' isn't responding negatively to the idea of another person's intimate experience. It's a rebellion from constraints.
But what happened to me was that after several days of drinking airplane nips and beer, I went to a zendo and I liked it, conceived of bringing my mind back to the present moment and thinking as 'the work.' I'm very good at focusing on things, but no one has ever told me what to focus on. And sitting there, for moments I felt like a little kid sitting out on the sidewalk in front of our house. The sense of newness, of beginning, and possibility.
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So, davaidavai, then maybe allow whatever gratitude you might have naturally come to the surface, otherwise, it sounds as if you're content to "just be" and you're ok with that. Some people aren't ok with that sort of neutral space of existing. Some people need to something to live and strive for, or something to look forward to.
I think I understand your mindset. Mine is probably very similar.
I don't try to force gratitude, but I do make sure I stay open to newness, possibility, as you say, and that sometimes results in a growing appreciation for theses little things (which turn out to be big things in some cases) that I've long since taken for granted.
Pulling off the alcoholic blinders, I found that I had taken for granted so many things in my life. It was astonishing. I am still coming to grips with it all.
I think I understand your mindset. Mine is probably very similar.
I don't try to force gratitude, but I do make sure I stay open to newness, possibility, as you say, and that sometimes results in a growing appreciation for theses little things (which turn out to be big things in some cases) that I've long since taken for granted.
Pulling off the alcoholic blinders, I found that I had taken for granted so many things in my life. It was astonishing. I am still coming to grips with it all.
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Im Grateful I happened to read this thread! Lol...The word Grateful should not ever get all twisted up..Youre ungrateful, youre an ingrate, etc. To be Grateful is to be Humble and other good things! I think Grateful is a derivative from or of the word GRACIOUS....
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OOOps, i was wrong, No Gracious, but pleasing and pleasant in Thesarus thing online. Synonyms for Grateful. Wierd, another word for Grateful is Indebted in Thesarus. Now i see how the word Grateful got twisted into something bad..Cuz who wants a debt, right?
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I'm going to Mexico for a job. I feel grateful. I've been living the last 3 years working as a rentals agent finding apartments for successful people. It's been a lonely three years. NYC feels like home though. Today I drank a nip and then two beers in a bar. 17 dollars. I did some work with a wealthy couple who is trying to find a way to pay me less, spoke to them on the phone. My clients will do whatever it takes to save a buck. Then I went walking through the city looking for another nip.
Places you love are beautiful when you are coming and going. Everything is crisper. The people passing with their coats on, now that it is cold. The hassidim in the diamond district, guys hanging out front hustling, trying to get you to go inside. 9 to fivers bustling passed. Halal food carts. Everyone with their niche. But I couldn't find a liquor store and so I took the train back to Brooklyn passing the krishna's in the Atlantic Pacific stop, passing a guy setting up a metlife insurance booth who stared at me, wondering if I might be a customer. I bought a crunch bar. By the time I was home I had gathered enough strength to buy chips and salsa instead of 3 nips of bushmills which would have kept me going until 9 or or so and sent me out for more, either beer, wine, or the squalor of my solitary self in the public of a bar.
And now I'm home, faced with another solitary journey into the world. I feel blessed and lonely and more than ever certain that alcohol is not a good thing for me.
I guess I did OK today. Two pints and a nip. I drank because it's an ecstasy, hard to resist. And that calm I work on nurturing, the substitute, wasn't enough. But I had so little I think I'll snap back in a couple hours.
Places you love are beautiful when you are coming and going. Everything is crisper. The people passing with their coats on, now that it is cold. The hassidim in the diamond district, guys hanging out front hustling, trying to get you to go inside. 9 to fivers bustling passed. Halal food carts. Everyone with their niche. But I couldn't find a liquor store and so I took the train back to Brooklyn passing the krishna's in the Atlantic Pacific stop, passing a guy setting up a metlife insurance booth who stared at me, wondering if I might be a customer. I bought a crunch bar. By the time I was home I had gathered enough strength to buy chips and salsa instead of 3 nips of bushmills which would have kept me going until 9 or or so and sent me out for more, either beer, wine, or the squalor of my solitary self in the public of a bar.
And now I'm home, faced with another solitary journey into the world. I feel blessed and lonely and more than ever certain that alcohol is not a good thing for me.
I guess I did OK today. Two pints and a nip. I drank because it's an ecstasy, hard to resist. And that calm I work on nurturing, the substitute, wasn't enough. But I had so little I think I'll snap back in a couple hours.
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Are you going to live in Mexico, davai? Or is it a temporary job? I would love to go there....and New York, for that matter.
I have had a hard couple of days at work, but what I noticed on the way home tonight was that I would rather feel a bit low and stressed than stop off, pick up wine, and regret it tomorrow. Something seems to have changed...I think like you, I feel more certain than ever that alcohol is not good for me. Only took me 15 years to figure it out.
Keep nurturing that calm. I hope posting on SR helps to relieve the loneliness a bit. I suspect you are not really a 'huggie-type' person, but I'm going to give you a virtual 'group hug' anyway....
I have had a hard couple of days at work, but what I noticed on the way home tonight was that I would rather feel a bit low and stressed than stop off, pick up wine, and regret it tomorrow. Something seems to have changed...I think like you, I feel more certain than ever that alcohol is not good for me. Only took me 15 years to figure it out.
Keep nurturing that calm. I hope posting on SR helps to relieve the loneliness a bit. I suspect you are not really a 'huggie-type' person, but I'm going to give you a virtual 'group hug' anyway....
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Thanks, yeah, I just had three 'drinks' yesterday, woke up at 3 am feeling crappy.
It's a three month type job, might be an entry into what I was doing previously before I chucked everything. I was very ashamed of my inability to handle human relationships and conflict 4 years ago. I felt slighted and wanted to return the world's favor and live life as a tramp of some kind, taking work as it comes, moving from place to place. Because people are insatiable, etc. I guess I'm ready to give it another shot.
I bet Auckland is nice too, would like to go there someday. The South Seas.
It's a three month type job, might be an entry into what I was doing previously before I chucked everything. I was very ashamed of my inability to handle human relationships and conflict 4 years ago. I felt slighted and wanted to return the world's favor and live life as a tramp of some kind, taking work as it comes, moving from place to place. Because people are insatiable, etc. I guess I'm ready to give it another shot.
I bet Auckland is nice too, would like to go there someday. The South Seas.
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Originally Posted by davaidavai
Thanks, yeah, I just had three 'drinks' yesterday, woke up at 3 am feeling crappy.
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That's one thing about giving up booze - it's romanticised on TV etc & you'll see images of it everywhere you go, it's deemed mandatory in most social occasions and unless you have really good planning and support you are left vulnerable. No one tries to impress you with their heroin addiction thank god.
Mate on the drink we all know 2 beers and 3 whiskeys or whatever might be today but keep going back and you'll end up getting steaming drunk sooner not later. Knock it on the head. You may as well - whatever that couple of beers gave you I reck you could get from another but clean source.
Good luck pal
Mate on the drink we all know 2 beers and 3 whiskeys or whatever might be today but keep going back and you'll end up getting steaming drunk sooner not later. Knock it on the head. You may as well - whatever that couple of beers gave you I reck you could get from another but clean source.
Good luck pal
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It's weird. There is no bones about it. I am using alcohol to induce an altered state. Might as well have just taken a little line of coke yesterday. You sort of home in on the act after a while, and it's as if you are having a dialogue with human nature.
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Originally Posted by davaidavai
It's weird. There is no bones about it. I am using alcohol to induce an altered state. Might as well have just taken a little line of coke yesterday. You sort of home in on the act after a while, and it's as if you are having a dialogue with human nature.
I tried to philosophize my way out of being an addict for many years, but it never worked. Only when I accepted that I simply "AM" an addict was I able to move forward. The lack of alcohol in my life in no way inhibits my creativity or ability to think philosophically, in fact it is more capable now that before.
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That sounds like a good opportunity. :-)
We can definitely change how we relate to people, I think. I'm living proof of that. 15 years ago I was a hopeless case. I became so afraid of people I couldn't answer the phone, open the front door if someone knocked on it. Couldn't be honest with people and ran away from anything that looked even slightly like conflict. I'd just had to much trauma and conflict I couldn't take any more. Went to ground. But yeah, I've come a long way. We can change.
Auckland is a great place to visit if you are a nature lover. The city itself is no chop at all, but the trees, birds, beaches....very pretty :-)
We can definitely change how we relate to people, I think. I'm living proof of that. 15 years ago I was a hopeless case. I became so afraid of people I couldn't answer the phone, open the front door if someone knocked on it. Couldn't be honest with people and ran away from anything that looked even slightly like conflict. I'd just had to much trauma and conflict I couldn't take any more. Went to ground. But yeah, I've come a long way. We can change.
Auckland is a great place to visit if you are a nature lover. The city itself is no chop at all, but the trees, birds, beaches....very pretty :-)
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It's weird. There is no bones about it. I am using alcohol to induce an altered state. Might as well have just taken a little line of coke yesterday. You sort of home in on the act after a while, and it's as if you are having a dialogue with human nature.
I romanticised my self destruction.
I remember thinking I was a modern shaman exploring the boundaries of human existence, attaining in sights that mere 9to5ers would never grasp.
In reality I was just a drunk guy in a room watching crappy daytime tv and drinking the decades away
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