criteria of an alcoholic
Castaway
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 783
Just to clarify--I did not identify myself as a social drinker, but as a problem drinker who tends to abuse alcohol when dealing with a stressful situation. I've stated that I think there is danger in continuing to use alcohol in this way because of the potential to become an alcoholic.
I see what you mean here. Like what happens if you're life becomes increasingly stressful (from no fault of your own)? Or what if your definition of stressful changes over time? Or, worse even, what if you turn out like me?....someone who drank during stressful times and then couldn't turn back when the stressful times were gone. That's my pitiful self.
Anyway, I'm so glad you're looking into it and I hope you find support and some answers. Life's too short to be wrestling with all of this. I just finally gave up (alcohol I mean).
Sandy
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Hey again Aimee2,you say,but i dont think a lol response is appropriate to my desire to examine the issue from a medical perspective....I wasnt implying anything about..you...My response was..as i have said,which is,."personally" ive never met a medical criter yet.I was only talking about my .own..experience.My own personal experience.And the truth of my situation,with another illness,i have..I was in no way referring to you.Please accept my amends.In future i will make my posts more clear...
Take care!!!!!!!!
Take care!!!!!!!!
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, Aimee,
One of the problems is that there isn't an accepted definition of 'alcoholic'. Here's a link to a thread where I posted several different definitions collected by Vince Fox in his book Addiction: Change and Choice.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ad.php?t=29872
Other recovery programs don't necessarily use the term. Some discourage it; others such as SMART Recovery simply suggest that it may be an impediment to change. As you can see from the responses here, it means different things to different people.
The belief that it is a disease which is invariably progressive in nature is widely held but not validated by research. Stanton Peele has a good summary here:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html
"The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34
Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems....
Snip
Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.
Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not.
Snip
A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."
In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."
Snip
The most important single prognostic variable associated with remission among alcoholics who attend alcohol clinics is having something to lose if they continue to abuse alcohol.... Patients cited changed life circumstances rather than clinic intervention as most important to their abstinence.... Improved working and housing conditions made a difference in 40 percent of good outcomes, intrapsychic change in 32 percent, improved marriage in 32 percent, and a single 3-hour session of advice and education about drinking... in 35 percent.46
In other words, people get over alcoholism because of changes in other parts of their lives that make it worthwhile to quit, that counterbalance their urge to drink, or that remove the stresses (such as marital problems) that led them to drink alcoholically. "
Don S
One of the problems is that there isn't an accepted definition of 'alcoholic'. Here's a link to a thread where I posted several different definitions collected by Vince Fox in his book Addiction: Change and Choice.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ad.php?t=29872
Other recovery programs don't necessarily use the term. Some discourage it; others such as SMART Recovery simply suggest that it may be an impediment to change. As you can see from the responses here, it means different things to different people.
The belief that it is a disease which is invariably progressive in nature is widely held but not validated by research. Stanton Peele has a good summary here:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html
"The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34
Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems....
Snip
Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.
Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not.
Snip
A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."
In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."
Snip
The most important single prognostic variable associated with remission among alcoholics who attend alcohol clinics is having something to lose if they continue to abuse alcohol.... Patients cited changed life circumstances rather than clinic intervention as most important to their abstinence.... Improved working and housing conditions made a difference in 40 percent of good outcomes, intrapsychic change in 32 percent, improved marriage in 32 percent, and a single 3-hour session of advice and education about drinking... in 35 percent.46
In other words, people get over alcoholism because of changes in other parts of their lives that make it worthwhile to quit, that counterbalance their urge to drink, or that remove the stresses (such as marital problems) that led them to drink alcoholically. "
Don S
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Don S
In other words, people get over alcoholism because of changes in other parts of their lives that make it worthwhile to quit, that counterbalance their urge to drink, or that remove the stresses (such as marital problems) that led them to drink alcoholically. "
. And after a little bit of recovery , I'm able to look at that time with a clearer mind. I still think that addiction is a disease, inasmuch that I believed I had to use these sunstances in order to function, or to experience emotions other than the ones I was faced with. I still believe that drug addiction, and more specifically alcoholism in this instance, can be progressive in a lot of cases.But even now, after very little sober time, the advantages brought about by remaining abstinent outweigh the return to drinking in such a way that I think of it as a no brainer. Am I a recovering addict? Sure. Am I a recovering alcoholic? Sure. But the changes I've been able to make in other aspects of my life, because I remain abstinent, make me so much more than that.
just j
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: chicago,illinois
Posts: 174
Such great info and advice here! Dan, what you say makes me wonder how much more I can get out of life while playing it 100% sober 100% of the time. It is not just "being" sober. It is the difference in personality that I notice.
Aimee you sure brought out a lot of great talk! Thanks! J
Aimee you sure brought out a lot of great talk! Thanks! J
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Jalyn
Such great info and advice here! Dan, what you say makes me wonder how much more I can get out of life while playing it 100% sober 100% of the time. It is not just "being" sober. It is the difference in personality that I notice.
So the logical choice for me is to abstain. And like you say Jalyn, not drinking is but a start. The changes I've made in the ways I react to events and the beliefs I hold are of vital importance for me to live a happier life.
That's just me though. I arrived at that conclusion the hard way, as compared to others who have chosen abstinence. But the result is much the same.
A more balanced life. Happier, healthier, and filled with hope for the future.
Focusing on 24 hour periods really works for me.
There's an excellent thread in this Forum called Friday Affirmations.
Don S. has posted an extensive collection of articles that really delve into behavior and belief changes, and the benefits to be drawn from doing so.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, humble,
Just curious...what has been so unpleasant about being sober for six months? We all had reasons we liked to drink, at least at first in our drinking histories. After a while it becomes repetitive behavior that we do almost without thinking. But focusing on what you feel you're missing could be the key to finding a happier sobriety.
Congratulations on six months. That is a real accomplishment. Now let's see if we can figure out why it feels so tough.
Thanks for posting,
Don S
Just curious...what has been so unpleasant about being sober for six months? We all had reasons we liked to drink, at least at first in our drinking histories. After a while it becomes repetitive behavior that we do almost without thinking. But focusing on what you feel you're missing could be the key to finding a happier sobriety.
Congratulations on six months. That is a real accomplishment. Now let's see if we can figure out why it feels so tough.
Thanks for posting,
Don S
Castaway
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 783
I am new to the site. I am finding it very helpful. I can read what you guys have posted and it helps me. I am having a very tough time- being sober for 6 months has been torture!
I'm only a few weeks sober, so you're way ahead of me. Congratulations. I'm so glad you've learned from the posters here and I hope you'll post more about yourself.
Sandy
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
Posts: 34
further explanation
Hi Don- It has been torture fighting the urge to drink. It has been so strong at times it has reduced me to tears. Did you not have this? I know of those who don't and they are so lucky. To me it is a constant inner battle.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Actually, when I finally quit drinking it was a great relief. No more having to hassle with figuring out how much I needed to buy, how much I'd had the day before, etc. It is amazing how much of our time we spent planning for drinking, doing the little rituals of it, being drunk, being asleep, or being hungover. It hardly left time for the rest of life.
I don't think it is luck, really. I think it has a lot to do with our attitude, and that is something that we can positively affect. This isn't just some kind of 'power of positive thinking'; it's a conscious process of identifying the beliefs that we have that are holding us back. Not just keeping us from sobriety--you've got that part down! But keeping us from comfort, and keeping us from recognizing happiness.
I have seen people post that boredom is a major problem in avoiding urges. They literally didn't know how to fill the drinking times! Changing behavior is partly emotional and partly just practical strategy. People who succeed at longterm sobriety usually make pretty significant changes in their lifestyle, they plan for the times when they might want to drink or when it will be offered to them.
You can dispute the underlying 'reasons' for the urge (I need a drink because....? Well, you just want one; that's different than needing one....). You can deflect the urge by doing something else. You can make up slogans, mantras, prayers, or sayings that you use whenever you have an urge ('don't think poisonous thoughts!' was one of mine). You can avoid the places and situations where they occur, or you can have a plan, contingency, and the support of others in place for those places and times.
It is important not to start adding up all the bad or discouraging events or feelings, and deciding that things are just awful. It's not a 'bad day'. There are good and bad parts of every day--even better, stop using the words 'good' and 'bad' entirely! Be more accurate: some things didn't go the way you preferred, some people didn't act in the way you would have liked. Other things happened in beneficial ways.
Each day isn't a balance sheet, with a measure of whether we're happy totalled up at the bottom. Accepting the daily tribulations and noticing the small things that make us happy is really key to daily serenity. I have a positive feeling when I stop at our local coffee shop on the way to work, get a pastry and a coffee, and chat with the people there. So I notice that I enjoy it, and make a point of starting my day that way. I like to write, work on my business web site, do things with my son and his friends, write letters to my daughter at boot camp--so I do those things in the evening when I used to just drink.
Making a point of pursuing a life's interest--perhaps one that you used to do, but haven't thought about in a while--can serve the goal of filling the nervous hours and can become a great pleasure in itself. Especially when you realize how much more adept you are at things when you're sober.
You really can change the way you feel about things. You can change your beliefs and emotions. It takes time, awareness of how and when your emotions are happening, and persistence. But it can be done! And it is much easier without alcohol clouding the emotions and making them more volatile.
Best wishes, and keep in touch,
Don S
I don't think it is luck, really. I think it has a lot to do with our attitude, and that is something that we can positively affect. This isn't just some kind of 'power of positive thinking'; it's a conscious process of identifying the beliefs that we have that are holding us back. Not just keeping us from sobriety--you've got that part down! But keeping us from comfort, and keeping us from recognizing happiness.
I have seen people post that boredom is a major problem in avoiding urges. They literally didn't know how to fill the drinking times! Changing behavior is partly emotional and partly just practical strategy. People who succeed at longterm sobriety usually make pretty significant changes in their lifestyle, they plan for the times when they might want to drink or when it will be offered to them.
You can dispute the underlying 'reasons' for the urge (I need a drink because....? Well, you just want one; that's different than needing one....). You can deflect the urge by doing something else. You can make up slogans, mantras, prayers, or sayings that you use whenever you have an urge ('don't think poisonous thoughts!' was one of mine). You can avoid the places and situations where they occur, or you can have a plan, contingency, and the support of others in place for those places and times.
It is important not to start adding up all the bad or discouraging events or feelings, and deciding that things are just awful. It's not a 'bad day'. There are good and bad parts of every day--even better, stop using the words 'good' and 'bad' entirely! Be more accurate: some things didn't go the way you preferred, some people didn't act in the way you would have liked. Other things happened in beneficial ways.
Each day isn't a balance sheet, with a measure of whether we're happy totalled up at the bottom. Accepting the daily tribulations and noticing the small things that make us happy is really key to daily serenity. I have a positive feeling when I stop at our local coffee shop on the way to work, get a pastry and a coffee, and chat with the people there. So I notice that I enjoy it, and make a point of starting my day that way. I like to write, work on my business web site, do things with my son and his friends, write letters to my daughter at boot camp--so I do those things in the evening when I used to just drink.
Making a point of pursuing a life's interest--perhaps one that you used to do, but haven't thought about in a while--can serve the goal of filling the nervous hours and can become a great pleasure in itself. Especially when you realize how much more adept you are at things when you're sober.
You really can change the way you feel about things. You can change your beliefs and emotions. It takes time, awareness of how and when your emotions are happening, and persistence. But it can be done! And it is much easier without alcohol clouding the emotions and making them more volatile.
Best wishes, and keep in touch,
Don S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
What's a Christian?? There are a lot of people running around who call themselves Christians. Are they? Who knows? Do they live like a Christian? Do they act like a Christian? Do they treat others as a Christian should treat others? Some do, some don't. But, they still call themselves Christians. Don is right in this respect. There's no "carved in stone" accepted criteria/definition of an alcoholic. But I can ask myself the same questions as above. Do I live like an alcoholic? Do I act like an alcoholic? Do I treat others like I'm alcoholic? Etc... Only I can answer those quetions and only after taking the time to find out the answers as they pertain to others who call themselves alcoholics.
Like Rowan said. It's less important what I am as what I do about it. If alcohol is causeing me problems, then alcohol is a problem. If I can't quit on my own, then I'd better seek help from whatever source available.
Like Rowan said. It's less important what I am as what I do about it. If alcohol is causeing me problems, then alcohol is a problem. If I can't quit on my own, then I'd better seek help from whatever source available.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
Alcoholic, problem drinker, social drinker? Who know's it's a personal decision. Once I could admit I was powerless over alcohol, which I knew I was, my life had become unmangable, it had, I knew something had to be done. The only way to see how different my life could be was to quit.
Easy, no! Doable, yes! After giving myself time off from it, and getting honest as to the cause my life, feelings of self, my sense of belonging, my ability to socialize had all been stripped away, I knew abstinance was what I had to do. Thus, I labled myself alcoholic.
I had all those questions early in recovery as well. I hadn't experianced a lot of the horror stories many had, and wondered, as I began to feel better, maybe I'm just a problem drinker? I can learn to manage it! But wrong! I know deep down I can't drink. I can't drink just one, I know how it will make me feel inside the next day, I know that my life will begin to go down the crapper again, I know I'll never be able to achieve goals I want to accomplish.
It took awhile in accepting my label, but ya know what? Once I did, it all got better, as Don said, no more wonderings about how much, what I did or said, or how bad the hangover is going to be. No more planning out the next drunk, sneaking and stashing the cans, no more lieing and making excuses for why I felt like crap all the time, no more foul moods, no more health problems, just peace, contentment, and happiness that in order to maintain the later, I simply avoid that drink just today!
Easy, no! Doable, yes! After giving myself time off from it, and getting honest as to the cause my life, feelings of self, my sense of belonging, my ability to socialize had all been stripped away, I knew abstinance was what I had to do. Thus, I labled myself alcoholic.
I had all those questions early in recovery as well. I hadn't experianced a lot of the horror stories many had, and wondered, as I began to feel better, maybe I'm just a problem drinker? I can learn to manage it! But wrong! I know deep down I can't drink. I can't drink just one, I know how it will make me feel inside the next day, I know that my life will begin to go down the crapper again, I know I'll never be able to achieve goals I want to accomplish.
It took awhile in accepting my label, but ya know what? Once I did, it all got better, as Don said, no more wonderings about how much, what I did or said, or how bad the hangover is going to be. No more planning out the next drunk, sneaking and stashing the cans, no more lieing and making excuses for why I felt like crap all the time, no more foul moods, no more health problems, just peace, contentment, and happiness that in order to maintain the later, I simply avoid that drink just today!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 404
Wow. That is it. You hit it right on the head!! That is exactly how I feel, and each morning when I woke up and said "no drinking today", my feelings would change by noon or maybe 3 pm as I started to feel better and think to myself "this time will be different, I can handle it" Thanks for the post!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Minneapolis MN
Posts: 404
That is exactly how I feel Aphrodite. It's funny how we all seem to be in this thing together. I would always think this time will be different, I can handle it, and of course I couldn't. Early in day 2 and still sober.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 15
Some reflections...
As I continue to explore the alcohol issue, a few things have occurred to me, especially with regard to the difference between social drinkers and alcohol abusers. Social drinkers DO drink to get a buzz--or even to get drunk on special occasions (weddings, holidays, etc). But they're satisfied with the couple of hours of pleasure that the buzz brings, and then stop. Alcohol abusers, on the other hand, aren't satisfied with a couple hours of buzz...rather, the buzz needs to go on and on and on, so instead of a couple drinks, it goes to 5, 6, 7 drinks...Social drinkers are satisfied with the occasional drinking to get a buzz--maybe a few times monthly or less. Alcohol abusers make getting the buzz the centerfold of life.
For myself, when I abuse alcohol, it's because it seems to make other things more enjoyable (being with friends, listening to music, watching t-v). That might okay if I settled for that type of enjoyment on an occasional, limited basis as most people do...but somewhere along the line over the past few years, I've come to rely on alchol in an unhealthy way to make life enjoyable. During the past week of abstinence, I've been reminded of the enjoyment I get from things without alcohol. Music can still sound good, t-v is still enjoyable, and when I get home after a stressful night of work in the mental health field, chocolate and herb tea are quite enjoyable. So I'm in the process of re-formatting my thinking.
These are my reflections so far. I've been enjoying reading other peoples' thoughts.
Aimee
For myself, when I abuse alcohol, it's because it seems to make other things more enjoyable (being with friends, listening to music, watching t-v). That might okay if I settled for that type of enjoyment on an occasional, limited basis as most people do...but somewhere along the line over the past few years, I've come to rely on alchol in an unhealthy way to make life enjoyable. During the past week of abstinence, I've been reminded of the enjoyment I get from things without alcohol. Music can still sound good, t-v is still enjoyable, and when I get home after a stressful night of work in the mental health field, chocolate and herb tea are quite enjoyable. So I'm in the process of re-formatting my thinking.
These are my reflections so far. I've been enjoying reading other peoples' thoughts.
Aimee
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