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Alcoholism and Control

Old 05-01-2015, 07:55 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Let's please keep this discussion to the original question and not yet another AA argument.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
So why isn't alcoholism treated as a compulsion? AA treats the symptoms, not the underlying causes.. You're completely powerless over your addiction?
Alcoholism is a progressive illness. It starts of as simply a bad habit. Goes on to be a compulsion and can end up a full blown hopeless condition.

How do I know that I was "powerless"? Because no amount of willpower, psychological tricks & tips or fellowship meetings could help me stay stopped in the long-run.

Then when I finally gave up fighting it. The compulsion vanished completely. I am still powerless today. I make no conscious attempt to control my drinking what so ever. Having had a Spiritual Awakening as a course of practicing reciprocal actions, I can now say:

A Spiritual Awakening is the most comfortable way to stay sober. The most natural way to stay sober. The most reliable way to stay sober.

Spiritual Awakenings are as real as orgasms. However, they are an "experience" that have to be lived to be comprehended. Not everyone believes that they are real because not everybody has "experienced" one.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
A Spiritual Awakening is the most comfortable way to stay sober. The most natural way to stay sober. The most reliable way to stay sober.
For you.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv View Post
What do you consider the underlying triggers?
For me it was Fridays. Except when it wasn't Friday. Then it was

Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Saturday
or Sunday.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
For you.
Time will tell.

For those who have experienced a Spiritual Awakening, time is on their side. For those who have not experienced a Spiritual Awakening, time is working against them.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
For me it was Fridays. Except when it wasn't Friday. Then it was

Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Saturday
or Sunday.
I'd like to add.
Anyday, Someday, Holiday, Good day, Bad day, Christmas Day, Today etc...
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:43 AM
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freshstart, yes thanks for explaining... it is disturbing on many levels.

JeffreyAK, true I guess I just meant I don't have outward physical withdrawal symptoms if I go a few days without drinking, but I know it could get to that point if I continue doing this. I'm getting into therapy soon and will go from there...

zjw, Aw hopefully someone will call... I like the quote in your signature btw. We read that book in high school and I just had a dream last night related to that school... Anyway I can relate to the anxiety triggered by almost anything, my main point was that it shouldn't be seen as a moral or character defect, there's no need to demonize anxiety or other "negative" emotions since this can sometimes make things worse.

Boleo, I know it's progressive but I don't believe time is linear. "Spiritual awakening" can mean different things to different people, but I too have had one (believe it or not). At the core of this thread are actually my issues with the perspectives on spirituality AA promotes... But I didn't want to make things too existential and haven't managed to get my points across very clearly.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
At the core of this thread are actually my issues with the perspectives on spirituality AA promotes...
The solution to that is to not use AA then. It works for some and not others, and there are plenty of other avenues available to achieve and maintain sobriety. The spirit of SR is to promote an environment of sharing and openness to many different models of sobriety, regardless of one's beliefs.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:25 AM
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I do not know much about AA methodology…
But I do not believe we are powerless and that some God/Energy is going to help me control my impulses. It is me that is responsible to my actions!

But AA is more than 12 steps,
the meetings help so many people not to be alone and have support, meet people in the same situation, make friends that do not drink…….

In someway
if you believe in the steps with total faith it works,
you can use their tools and can succeed.

If you are Empirical you have to find other tools.
Like the AVRT theory read the book, go to addictions councillor, sports,…

I tried NA and decided It was not working for me, so I go my own way and is harder without support!!!
So got a shrink and am trying to change the core of my life, from alcohol and drugs to want to Live, I try to change the things that set me off…

I believe like you as well genetics (from my alcoholic dad) and environment (Drinking Culture) etc.

But what ever works is marvellous…!!!!
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
Something finally clicked for me, I'm not physically addicted to alcohol but it's become a psychological compulsion. Just like people with OCD perform compulsive rituals to manage their anxiety and create an illusion of control over negative thoughts and emotions, the behaviors seem irrational to everyone around them, but they feel like they can't stop no matter how much this interferes with living a normal life. Eating disorders are similar to addictions in that they're usually about control too, even though it's a tricky paradox.

So why isn't alcoholism treated as a compulsion? AA treats the symptoms, not the underlying causes.. You're completely powerless over your addiction? No, you're not. How many people has this actually prevented from getting or staying sober? There are many things in life we can't control, our own thoughts and feelings included at times, but we can control how we view and react to them. I don't believe alcoholism is a disease, it might be a mental illness brought on by genetic predisposition and/or environmental factors, but it's not a permanent condition and alcohol itself isn't the problem imo.

So that's my rant, I want to help myself and help others but feel like there's something twisted about the way our society treats addiction.
Alcoholism is both physiological and psychological. Due to tolerance, the spectrum of physical addiction is wide depending on the individual, but eventually physical addiction will occur. As an example, Delerium Tremons (DT's) is physical addiction / dependence on alcohol and is very dangerous and can be fatal. Hallucinations also can be involved.

amethyst05 writes>>>AA treats the symptoms, not the underlying causes<<<

This isn't true, the suggested program of recovery Alcoholics Anonymous is self-examination and it addresses the causes and conditions that engenders alcoholism, usually issues that begin in childhood. The treatment for the symptom is abstinence.

amethyst05 writes>>>I don't believe alcoholism is a disease, it might be a mental illness brought on by genetic predisposition and/or environmental factors.<<<

Disease, illness, disorder, it's semantics. Disease in how rehabs science / medicine categorizes / defines alcoholism, it separates it from other addictions that kill, e.g. nicotine addiction, food disorders, e.g. over eaters , anorexia. In this context, I agree, it engenders organ disease both physiological and psychological. It's a mental disorder. Evidence indicates genetic predisposition, but by definition evidence isn't proof.

amethyst05 writes>>>but it's not a permanent condition and alcohol itself isn't the problem<<<

I agree to some extent, alcohol (intake, ingestion) itself is a problem as well as the symptom, it's a poison. Generally I agree, it's not a permanent condition, but there are residuals with some, i.e. organ damage, physiological and psychological.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:11 AM
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The AA Big Book says nothing about being "powerless over your addiction," as you wrote. The entire program is based on the powerful reality that we can, indeed, do something about our "addiction." Nor does the AA Big Book mention anything about how to stop drinking, what you describe as a "symptom." Though it may not work for everyone, AA's program of recovery treats the whole person, the person we "learned" to become -- and who, in fact, we became -- while we were drinking. Did you have any power or control over the person you became or what you did or didn't do while you were drinking? Is that the person who you intended to become?

If what you do while you're drinking is what you intended to do before you started drinking, then you're not powerless over alcohol. But if what you do while you're drinking is beyond you're control to change or modify it in any meaningful way, then "something else" is in control.

Overcomplicating or misrepresenting a simple idea is both misleading and utterly unhelpful. This goes for people who've gotten sober in AA and those who have not.
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Old 05-01-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
This is how it's been for me too. I feel like I'm in church again except this time everyone's chain smoking and it doesn't help my anxiety at all lol...
I haven't been to a meeting that allowed smoking in YEARS. I would think one would have no trouble finding a non-smoking meeting these days. There's not a single smoking meeting in my town, and I'm pretty sure there are no smoking meetings in the larger cities nearby ...

You seem to have this all figured out and analyzed, amethyst. But I have my doubts that it will keep you sober.
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Old 05-01-2015, 01:36 PM
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I don't know, amethyst... I kinda tend to feel that many of the sometimes quite adamant discussions and opinions around the AA program are typical power struggles we humans often have even with each-other everyday.

I have not worked the 12 steps, but honestly, when I was drinking heavily, I could never go more than 2-3 days without alcohol, and 2-3 days were already an "achievement" during that time and most often did not happen. That was as far as my "power" lasted as a drinker. And then I used my frustration about it as an excuse for another drink...
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Old 05-01-2015, 01:53 PM
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I didn't realize I needed to walk on eggshells if mentioning AA here... my apologies.

I have a different take on things spiritually and yes that makes it difficult to find support and a community of like minded people. Yet the reality is AA works for some people but it doesn't work long term for most, the statistics back me up on that... So I'd rather not debate honestly.
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pagekeeper View Post
I haven't been to a meeting that allowed smoking in YEARS. I would think one would have no trouble finding a non-smoking meeting these days. There's not a single smoking meeting in my town, and I'm pretty sure there are no smoking meetings in the larger cities nearby ...

You seem to have this all figured out and analyzed, amethyst. But I have my doubts that it will keep you sober.
I actually smoke too so it's not like I really mind, but yeah the last AA meeting I went to was kind of a "hipster" crowd and it was a little awkward..

I definitely don't have it all figured out, it's just frustrated to be told that there's no other way but to join the flock (that anyone's interested in talking about at least).
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:11 PM
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". You're completely powerless over your addiction? No, you're not. How many people has this actually prevented from getting or staying sober?"
From the CDC:
Excessive alcohol use is a leading cause of preventable death. This dangerous behavior accounted for approximately 88,000 deaths per year from 2006–2010, and accounted for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years.


IMO that's quite a few that the powerlessness prevented from getting a d staying sober in the U.S. alone.
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
I actually smoke too so it's not like I really mind, but yeah the last AA meeting I went to was kind of a "hipster" crowd and it was a little awkward..

I definitely don't have it all figured out, it's just frustrated to be told that there's no other way but to join the flock (that anyone's interested in talking about at least).
There are people in AA that say its the only way, but from what I've seen it's a very small percentage.
I personally and greatful and happy to see anyone get and stay sober no matter how they do it.
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by haennie View Post
I don't know, amethyst... I kinda tend to feel that many of the sometimes quite adamant discussions and opinions around the AA program are typical power struggles we humans often have even with each-other everyday.

I have not worked the 12 steps, but honestly, when I was drinking heavily, I could never go more than 2-3 days without alcohol, and 2-3 days were already an "achievement" during that time and most often did not happen. That was as far as my "power" lasted as a drinker. And then I used my frustration about it as an excuse for another drink...
I understand everyone loses control over their behaviors sometimes (especially when immersed in an addiction or substance abuse), all I'm saying is that instead of depending on God to rescue us from our hopeless and helpless situations, we can realize the only real higher power is the collective, which we are all equally a part of... in my opinion.

People with eating disorders "lose control" over food, but they have no choice but to gain it back or eventually die from their unhealthy behaviors... I understand the importance of surrender and humility, but AA isn't the only way to achieve that or re-gain control imo.

So I know I said I don't want to debate but just wanted to explain a bit of where I'm coming from
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
". You're completely powerless over your addiction? No, you're not. How many people has this actually prevented from getting or staying sober?"
From the CDC:
Excessive alcohol use is a leading cause of preventable death. This dangerous behavior accounted for approximately 88,000 deaths per year from 2006–2010, and accounted for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20–64 years.


IMO that's quite a few that the powerlessness prevented from getting a d staying sober in the U.S. alone.
Apparently (just from looking it up) 1 in 5 deaths in the US are associated with obesity... But where are the Foodaholics Anonymous groups and pamphlets?

They don't exist because weight loss products/services are far more profitable.. Gyms, diet pills, work-out videos, etc. What can you sell to an alcoholic other than a belief system or more alcohol? Just saying...
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by amethyst05 View Post
I didn't realize I needed to walk on eggshells if mentioning AA here... my apologies.
That's just being contentious.

I have a different take on things spiritually and yes that makes it difficult to find support and a community of like minded people. Yet the reality is AA works for some people but it doesn't work long term for most, the statistics back me up on that... So I'd rather not debate honestly.
Then don't post provocative comments and then jettison your responsibility for making them based on the responses you get.

I have some mostly minor pet peeves about all programs of recovery, including AA and my own field of practice, but I see no point in commenting on them since doing so helps no one, and could possibly and adversely color a new person's thinking about any particular type of recovery method. I'm much more comfortable supporting the freedom that people have to arrive at their own conclusions.

We're all responsible here for what we say.
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