heartcore

I'm going with spryte - that it is a maladaption, which can turn into a physical dependence.

Now, whether I was more likely to express my "mal" from the maladaption with alcohol or drugs or some other behavior may have to do with genetic predisposition and/or the way my body processes alcohol (which would also be genetic) or it could be an environmental learning, as I grew up in a family which "adapted" to daily life happenings by using alcohol.

I never developed a physical dependence, so folks who have gotten to that place may well have more reason to consider this a physical experience, or disease.

I believe that - as a maladaption - the first step is to stop the maladaptive behavior entirely (abstinence from alcohol) and then to learn new ways to adapt (recovery).

But we are adapting...to a really screwed up and challenging world. We live in a world where our primary tribal relationships are scattered and broken, where we are often alone, rather than surrounded by a small community of other humans who are tribe. We are disconnected from the group experience. For many of us, the world is overwhelming. Violence, manipulation, economic inequity. Racism, rape, objectification of women, child abuse, war. This is a brutal and challenging culture, especially for those who are particularly "sensitive." I'm defining sensitivity as a sort of hyper awareness of social/emotional dynamics. It is harder for many of us to witness the world we live in than it is for others.

It is a sh*!storm that we're being expected to "adapt" to.

So alcohol softens the blow. And it is a substance which has been used since the beginnings of time to do so, to soften things and to celebrate things. The difference was (I think) that people had all sort of social relationships in place in lifelong communities that knew them and that they knew. It is a lot easier (at least for me) to abuse alcohol while living alone, in a strange place. It is a way to connect with others, to pass lonely time, to soften the pain of that tremendous solitude. It was an "adaption" and it came with a cost.

So, everything we do in human behavior is in some sense an "adaption" to our experience, whether that is falling in love, or falling out of love, or drinking, or deciding to get fit. And some of those things become self-destructive. And we have the choice as to whether to continue them or to attempt a different "adaption." One of the beauties of "recovery" is that it is a sort of thorough and packaged "adaption" to the challenges of being a human in this world.

I think sometimes we are hard on ourselves. The disease concept does come with a lot of baggage (in which we are the diseased and others are "normal"). I would suggest that it is perfectly "normal" for sensitive people to use alcohol to deal with a diseased culture...

And at some point, we over-used it, crossing the line to a "mal-adaption."

But seriously, look around. All those "normies" we keep talking about - they have some seriously messed up adaptions also!! I don't think my adaption is any more diseased than the heartless greed with which many people approach business, or the selfishness of someone cheating on their partner, or the mother who is emotionally and verbally violent to her children. And you have people adapting through consumerism, or through controlling other people, or political manipulation.

You can't be in a crowded room without encountering people who are medicated for depression and ADD and impotence and weight loss. Basically, every single person in the world is "diseased" in some way, or has a "mental health disorder." If everybody has "mental health issues" - isn't that the new normal?

Turtle82

Thanks for the link Pete. I agree with it. Definitely genetics here. I got the "click" (euphoria) the first time I drank and chased it from then on. Nothing else legal or illegal provided it. Those other substances might have helped numb the personality issues that developed later (I think as a result of arrested coping-skills development) or escape however briefly from them but they never provided the "click." I guess that's what's meant by "drug of choice."

Gottalife

Thee was nothing much wrong with me before the first drink. The idea of a pre existing condition that remains after the drinking has stopped may have merit, but of equal merit has to be the physical and psychological damage done during drinking. Not many chronic alcoholics get away without other consequences because they consume so much of a dangerous substance.

Add to that things like malnutrition through not eating ( eating interferes with drinking) the crazy behaviour that goes with drinking, and it is not surprising that instincts and emotions end up warped. While I was off enjoying the "click" I missed out on normal emotional growth and development. I wasn't consciously avoiding that, I just never got to experience it.Just stopping drinking does not fix this. Even though warped thinking was not a pre existing condition, it still needs to be fixed.

Bh28

It's a desease that kills you and causes dementia.

Bh28

My dad has it. Dementia.

JCMJ

I think it's a disease but only after enough bad decisions are made to leave disease as an inevitable result. I know that's hard for some to absorb but if we never choose to drink there's a 100% guarantee of no disease in the form of alcoholism. I do think mental illness can play a large part in addiction but I also think it can be either the cause or the result of the addiction. Some drink to numb the mental stress others develop the mental stress as a result of an unhealthy relationship with the drink. In either case repeatedly bad decisions in relation to drinking will likely result in disease, mental illness and other unfortunate circumstances.

NYCDoglvr

Mental Illnesses ARE diseases. The American Medical Association classifies alcoholism/addiction as a mental illness ... it's not a disease of the elbow!

exponential

Interesting discussion. The U.S. Supreme Court reportedly could not decide if alcoholism is a disease, because they said there are too many definitions of 'alcoholism', and not enough definitions of 'disease'. If the smartest lawyers in the country can't figure it out, neither can I.

Is alcoholism a mental illness? I certainly don't think someone with a tobacco habit is mentally ill. I am not even sure someone who is addicted to narcotics should be thought of as mentally ill -- they are just hooked on the stuff. Any one who uses tobacco or narcotics long enough will develop psychological and/or physical dependence -- they become habituated to getting their fix. In the case of narcotics, some users do overdose, and if they stop using, they usually go through physical withdrawal of some sort.

But alcohol is different somehow. It is selectively problematic. And it isn't just a function of the total amount that has been used. Some people can drink three glasses of wine every day their entire lives (like in Mediterranean cultures), and never have a problem. Moderate drinkers can have a cocktail or two to unwind after work, or to make themselves more sociable at a party, but then they stop. They have reached the point of diminishing returns. They are perfectly happy to let the effects wear off, and not think about it again until tomorrow, or the next day, or whenever. What is it about those of us who tend to lose control of our consumption after the first one or two drinks, and inevitably end up getting intoxicated? We don't want the effects to wear off, so we feed ourselves more alcohol compulsively!

I don't think that alcoholic drinking behavior is necessarily connected to a pre-existing mood problem, but I do think that it is appropriate to characterize it as a form of mental illness. The label "compulsive disorder" that someone mentioned seems to fit. You already had your fix, so why do you have to keep fixing more? Why can't you just ride with the buzz as is? I don't think the answer to this is fully understood.

SoberCAH

I have never permitted myself to get bogged down in this quandry.

I think it's a disease, but I confess that I am a man of letters and not a man of science (I have the undergraduate transcript to substantiate this conclusion), so I am not qualified to give any kind of expert opinion on it.

I do know the cure to whatever I had when I walked into the treatment center.

exponential

Aside from the compulsive drinking, another component of mental abnormality associated with alcoholism (and I presume other types of substance abuse) is the distorted thinking that tends to be attached to it -- in particular, denial and rationalization. "Today I am drinking a lot, but starting Monday I will be more moderate. I just need to try a little harder." Or "I will go back to it for just today, and then be back on the wagon tomorrow." These false excuses tend to be repeated over and over, despite repeated failures, sometimes for years. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, then I suppose this is a form of insanity. But the good news is that if the alcoholism can be arrested once and for all, so can the accompanying insanity.

Bh28

It's a disease which can and will cause mental illness. My old man has alzheimer's due to his drinking.

NoelleR

These are two petty bold statements. Can you cite your sources?

When I'm researching something to do with alcoholism, I like the following two sources (and what they have to say regarding alcohol and Alzheimer's disease)...............:

1) NIH (National Institute of Health)...........: "...Although it is biologically plausible that drinking increases the risk of AD, epidemiologic studies have not supported this hypothesis. Currently, no strong evidence suggests that alcohol use influences the risk of developing AD, but further research is needed before the effect of alcohol use on AD is fully understood..."

2) Hazelden Betty Ford..............: "...we cannot say that alcohol use increases the risk of Alzheimer's. But this conclusion may change as researchers find better ways to distinguish between alcoholic dementia and Alzheimer's. Perhaps alcoholic dementia and Alzheimer's are both caused by similar factors that are yet to be discovered..."

Therefore, we may believe that alcohol affects Alzheimer's and dementia, so far, we need more research to make 'factual' statements.

(o:
NoelleR

P.S. Links to the articles.................: 1) http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicatio...-4/299-306.htm
2) http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/ade20812.page

Bh28

Don't need to cite sources mate. I know from first hand experience. He was a very intelligent guy with 3 master degrees but know he is not the same person.

His memory is very bad, talks to himself 24/7 and can't even do simple tasks.

Bh28

He just turned 60 a couple of days ago.

Iconoclastic

Alcoholism is the cause of various diseases, dementia is not a result for the majority.

My father died at 84 due to complications that alcoholism contributed to, but dementia wasn't involved.

Bh28

When I went to AA there was a guy with alcoholic dementia. He said booze caused it.

Answer this then?

Iconoclastic

I answered it, in my post that you relied to. I wrote "Alcoholism is the cause of various diseases, dementia is not a result for the majority."

"Not a result for the majority" is the key wording in my answer. Google the science and it should help with this understanding.

doggonecarl

There is an ignore feature if you don't want to see another person's posts.

Bh28

Thanks.

mfanch

It does not matter to me if alcoholism is a disease, a mental illness, a maladaptation, or a behavioral problem.

The question is: do I want to DO something about it....take responsibility for it and take ACTION??