courage2

During a recent, unwelcome, and unexpected spell of tension and anxiety, I'm finding that one identifiable thread common to all my worst periods thus far in recovery is alienation. I'm in AA and at this point I'm considerably more in contact with other people than I've been in decades. But at times like this, I really, really can't stand most of the people I see. Especially in AA.

Now, I know this is not the best of times for me to decide to cut off ties with anyone. Which is why I just reached out, yet again, to another alcoholic, in hopes of encountering a fellow human soul to whom I can relate. I learn something from everyone I meet in recovery and am grateful to them, but alongside that gratitude I have to admit I still feel a great sense of emptiness, of fundamental disconnect, as if

"...we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night."

Is this a common problem? How do other people who suffer from alcohol + alienation handle it? I have no fantasy about using this as an excuse to relapse, yet I recognize this isn't a mental state that's very conducive to a healthy recovery.

Dee74

I think alienation (or isolation) in times of upset or stress is probably part of a lot of people's stories.

Solitude is fine. I enjoy a little solitude - but if/when I'm using it to avoid other things it gets to be a problem.

I don't have any advice except to say that I've recognised the days when I least want, or feel capable of being in, someone else's company are the days I probably need it most.

I've also recognised I don't need for people to be soulmates for me to interact with them or even enjoy their company.

There's almost always some commonality where two folks can meet

D

Soberwolf

I recently felt like this ive been through a lot and last week i had a bad day i had no thoughts of drinking i just had a bad day

i reached out to a trusted friend and spoke about it i then took action and things are a lot better than they were last week, talking about my problems and finding a solution seriously helped

i had ben n jerrys choclate fudge brownie ice cream it was delicious

fini

what helps me is to read a newcomer post, try to really hear, and then respond. get out of my head. doesn't mean i feel like a soulmate, or even that i can always relate to what they're saying. but i CAN relate to being new.
when i do that, i feel connected, even though it doesn't last long.

for the fundamental disconnect?
ach!

i think about this; a lot:

Thus, the state of our whole life is estrangement from others and
ourselves, because we are estranged from the Ground of our being, because
we are estranged from the origin and aim of our life. And we do not know
where we have come from, or where we are going. We are separated from the
mystery, the depth, and the greatness of our existence. We hear the voice
of that depth; but our ears are closed. We feel that something radical,
total, and unconditioned is demanded of us; but we rebel against it, try
to escape its urgency, and will not accept its promise.


We cannot escape, however. If that something is the Ground of our being,
we are bound to it for all eternity, just as we are bound to ourselves and
to all other life. We always remain in the power of that from which we are
estranged. That fact brings us to the ultimate depth of sin: separated and
yet bound, estranged and yet belonging, destroyed and yet preserved, the
state which is called despair. Despair means that there is no escape.
Despair is "the sickness unto death." But the terrible thing about the
sickness of despair is that we cannot be released, not even through open
or hidden suicide. For we all know that we are bound eternally and
inescapably to the Ground of our being. The abyss of separation is not
always visible. But it has become more visible to our generation than to
the preceding generations, because of our feeling of meaninglessness,
emptiness, doubt, and cynicism -- all expressions of despair, of our
separation from the roots and the meaning of our life. Sin in its most
profound sense, sin, as despair, abounds amongst us.

that's Paul Tillich.
and while that might sound like it would do anything but be helpful for the feeling of fundamental disconnect, i find it the opposite: every time i read it or think on it, it talks to me of my fundamental connect, of the fact it's there no matter how estranged i might be from "it".

and then i sit with that.

a li'l heavy?

Tonks

Loved this.

lycanlaz

wow... you know when someone says something so obvious, so plain and just... but you've never looked at it like that... i run all the time, hide... get the hell away from everyone because i have to, i have to get as far away as possible i gotta hide, and this is part of it, the alienation, the isolation, the day in day out locked in away from everyone as far as possible because i'm so far away from everyone, i'm another species... i never thought for one second that maybe at those moment, maybe that's when i need other people more than ever... wow. maybe it's obvious to everyone else, idk... but it's just punched me in the face. i guess because as well, my experience with people has left me misanthropic and expecting the worst, like, i just anticipate assholes... and figure no one else is like me... so running away into myself, which i suppose is part of addiction, even if you feel like you're trying to escape yourself... im running from other people, and self worth is always subjective; the ego is built against experiences with other humans....

my point is i never considered that when i hide, maybe i need people more than ever. real people. people like me. i guess that's the friction - the idea that there -isn't- anyone else like me.

courage2

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. The general nessage about seeking other people's company -- not for soulmates but just company -- is well taken and I continue to follow that direction. In fact the primary action I've been taking towards recovery besides doing AA stepwork is trying to connect to other people. I'm definitely not isolated now and I'm considerably less solitary than I used to be.

But my alienation, when it comes on, doesn't seem relieved by the company of others. It's visceral -- kind of like a bad acid flashback, where the noises people make sound like nails on slate and the veins on my own hands look like gecko skin?

SW, I know you've been feeling badly & I'm glad you found some comfort w/a friend & w/B&J. I like the salted caramel core!

fini, I appreciate the Paul Tillich passage. I am not in despair. I have been, I know what a prolonged state of despair is like and remember it very clearly.

lycanlaz, I'm glad you found something here that you responded to.

Dee74

I know we're speaking about different things courage - and I wish I had an answer for you.

All I can offer you is my admiration and my friendship

D

Soberwolf

Salted caramel core b&j is really nice so is all or nutting

Have a great day courage

courage2

B&J Banana Split is good!

Other than onto a new flavor of ice cream, I'm feeling pretty much the same. Fluctuating between detached & wanting to attach but failing. I'm starting to suspect that this has something to do with my son getting married. Change... bad. scary. thanks for letting me share.

Aellyce

Courage, I've missed this thread before. What you are describing, this detachment or alienation, really resonates with me considering some periods of my life. It's actually my habitual defense mechanism when I'm feeling stressed, overwhelmed, anxious, hurt, whatever. Sometimes even without any apparent reason... I just can't stand "life" around me. There is also a pattern stemming from this that has been present in many of my relationships -- in fact, I destroyed a few of them with this kind of act when I was younger. Like you, I've also been trying to work on this a lot and behave differently, reach out to people instead of isolating when I feel this way etc, but it only seems to work to a certain extent. What I believe about it is that it's probably a really core part of my temperament, which can be triggered by certain events, environments, and sometimes just my own physiology perhaps. Other people, who know me well, described it exactly as a fluctuation between attachment and detachment, or push/pull, and sometimes quite extremes of both. The challenge is that I can force it and be more approachable when I don't want to be, but I usually remain keenly aware it's being forced. Luckily as I get older, I have periods like this less and less often... I believe that in part this development is due to some close intimate relationships I had, where I could almost totally drop this feature, or was not judged for it at all. It's really great if you can overcome this in your AA participation.

Just wanted to say that I relate