Questions for Hardcore, Chronic Alcoholics
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: mountain states, Montana and Wyoming
Posts: 246
Excellent thread! I will take a stab at it from my perspective. First, I don't think it is a disease, the choice to partake in it eliminates it in my mind from being a disease. All you have to do is stop drinking, and then you wont have the drinking problem. If you have brain cancer, well there are few things you can stop to make it go away.
There is an addiction and perhaps the addiction is what people call the disease. The addiction compels you to do something. There certainly is a physical addiction at some point, but initially the mental addiction drives the problem.
It is not rational. So most ideas which are based in a rational environment do not apply. Sort of like the process of melting ice, you can melt ice with salt, but it does not make a fire hotter.
The addiction part is the key to the problem as many people have stated. I like the pie reference. This same addiction aspect can be applied to fat people. For the love of God don't you know that eating too much makes you fat! Well yes, I do know it makes me fat, but the food is so good. Well yes the food is tasty, but is the 2 lb rib steak any better than the 8 ounce rib steak? Yes it is better, because there is more of it and I enjoy the meat coma! But it will make your stomach too full, give you gas and perhaps diarrhea, not to mention what it does to your arteries, blood pressure, and your waist and butt. Well now that you mention it, I will still have it because I don't do it very often, and I will only have a small piece of cheesecake for dessert.
The addiction is the key to the problem in my opinion. I too have been wondering why people are alcoholic, fat, lazy, smoke meth, do drugs, etc. Reading some books about it and still don't have it figured out. But I do know, it is not rational, much like being fat.
Maybe this helps maybe it does not, but I think it is difficult to have compassion for someone who only needs to not do something to be better. You don't need to run a marathon everyday to stop drinking, you just need to not have that first drink. Sounds simple, not to have that first drink especially when it is pretty damn clear what it does to you. It is not simple though, very complicated as to the reasoning or lack of reasoning which compels people to take the drink.
Thanks for the post.
There is an addiction and perhaps the addiction is what people call the disease. The addiction compels you to do something. There certainly is a physical addiction at some point, but initially the mental addiction drives the problem.
It is not rational. So most ideas which are based in a rational environment do not apply. Sort of like the process of melting ice, you can melt ice with salt, but it does not make a fire hotter.
The addiction part is the key to the problem as many people have stated. I like the pie reference. This same addiction aspect can be applied to fat people. For the love of God don't you know that eating too much makes you fat! Well yes, I do know it makes me fat, but the food is so good. Well yes the food is tasty, but is the 2 lb rib steak any better than the 8 ounce rib steak? Yes it is better, because there is more of it and I enjoy the meat coma! But it will make your stomach too full, give you gas and perhaps diarrhea, not to mention what it does to your arteries, blood pressure, and your waist and butt. Well now that you mention it, I will still have it because I don't do it very often, and I will only have a small piece of cheesecake for dessert.
The addiction is the key to the problem in my opinion. I too have been wondering why people are alcoholic, fat, lazy, smoke meth, do drugs, etc. Reading some books about it and still don't have it figured out. But I do know, it is not rational, much like being fat.
Maybe this helps maybe it does not, but I think it is difficult to have compassion for someone who only needs to not do something to be better. You don't need to run a marathon everyday to stop drinking, you just need to not have that first drink. Sounds simple, not to have that first drink especially when it is pretty damn clear what it does to you. It is not simple though, very complicated as to the reasoning or lack of reasoning which compels people to take the drink.
Thanks for the post.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Grayslake, IL
Posts: 732
Originally Posted by seek 
Hi There!
I am attempting to not judge alcoholics who "don't learn from experience," but I'm having a hard time understanding (and I "get" that I will never truly understand, as I do not have the "disease" of alcoholism).
I am confused by the following:
1) In my experience, getting really super drunk creates a horrible hangover. I can understand doing this a few times until it clicks that "feeling bad was caused by drinking too much." I can't understand why anyone would "agree" on some level to live in so much agony. Does it register that the miserable hangover is caused by the booze or is the entire process unconscious? I would love to hear actual experiences of people who have lived like this for years.
2) When you begin to have negative consequences (lose your stuff, your job, your relationships) what do you say to yourself? And when you don't stop and things keep getting worse, what are you thinking?
3) If you have been in and out of detoxes and rehabs, what is your thinking each time you land there again (just before you decide to "go out" again)? What is your life philosophy at that point?
I am struggling to understand, as I said, and know I never really will be able to, but perhaps I might be able to have compassion even without understanding instead of harsh judgment . . . that is what I am shooting for. From where I stand now, I just think "they know what they are doing and they are making these choices knowing what the consequences are" - and then I wonder about "not learning from experience" and then I start to judge. Trying to gain compassion.
Thanks for any insights into the internal processes and thinking that goes on.
I am attempting to not judge alcoholics who "don't learn from experience," but I'm having a hard time understanding (and I "get" that I will never truly understand, as I do not have the "disease" of alcoholism).
I am confused by the following:
1) In my experience, getting really super drunk creates a horrible hangover. I can understand doing this a few times until it clicks that "feeling bad was caused by drinking too much." I can't understand why anyone would "agree" on some level to live in so much agony. Does it register that the miserable hangover is caused by the booze or is the entire process unconscious? I would love to hear actual experiences of people who have lived like this for years.
2) When you begin to have negative consequences (lose your stuff, your job, your relationships) what do you say to yourself? And when you don't stop and things keep getting worse, what are you thinking?
3) If you have been in and out of detoxes and rehabs, what is your thinking each time you land there again (just before you decide to "go out" again)? What is your life philosophy at that point?
I am struggling to understand, as I said, and know I never really will be able to, but perhaps I might be able to have compassion even without understanding instead of harsh judgment . . . that is what I am shooting for. From where I stand now, I just think "they know what they are doing and they are making these choices knowing what the consequences are" - and then I wonder about "not learning from experience" and then I start to judge. Trying to gain compassion.
Thanks for any insights into the internal processes and thinking that goes on.
PM me if you want some more insight, sorry I can't answer your question.
Bunnez
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,641
I have a vision of the sheriffs coming around and handcuffing all the relatives and bringing them to the Rehab and taking their money for essentials for the alcoholic.
Or is that just me?
Choice you say?
Who is making choices?
Or is that just me?
Choice you say?
Who is making choices?
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,359
Originally Posted by seek
Ha ha. I need a little levity today. Started feeling sorry for myself and pissed off at the circumstances. We, the "enemy" have much in common with the alcoholics!
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Deckard,
thanks so much for the Eve Tushnet quote. i'd never heard of her, but the quote rang true for me and now i've looked her up and found a fascinating new-to-me website, Patheos.
never know where SR will lead
thanks so much for the Eve Tushnet quote. i'd never heard of her, but the quote rang true for me and now i've looked her up and found a fascinating new-to-me website, Patheos.
never know where SR will lead
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 143
I am one of those guys who has lost things due directly or indirectly because of alcohol and I never understood it either when I was younger and just would get drunk once a week like every other college person. My Dad had the same issues that I have now and when he was alive I never understood it. Because if I went out on Saturday night and got drunk, the last thing I wanted to do on Sunday was drink.
Now, I am just as likely to have a shot of vodka at 5:30 AM than I am at 9:00 PM. The reason? Withdrawls suck and even though it is temporary it makes some of the pain go away that I am experiencing with my life. When I was unemployed, I was so embarrassed I had 5 or 6 stores I would go to to buy.
I knew it was ruining my life and health and really didn't care because I thought I had fallen to far to ever recover.
Now, I am just as likely to have a shot of vodka at 5:30 AM than I am at 9:00 PM. The reason? Withdrawls suck and even though it is temporary it makes some of the pain go away that I am experiencing with my life. When I was unemployed, I was so embarrassed I had 5 or 6 stores I would go to to buy.
I knew it was ruining my life and health and really didn't care because I thought I had fallen to far to ever recover.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 296
Simple fact of the matter is, alcoholics die everyday. Some never see the light at the end of the tunnel. They never see recovery, not even a glipse. Whether it be church, aa, na, ca, ga, sa, av, smart recovery. The message is clear as day, however it can be muddied and unclear. The alanoner is just as sick as the user/abuser.
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 368
Could I add a question to this thread? I get that during active drinking it's extremely hard to pull up and out of the nose dive. But what goes through people head when they relapse repeatedly every few months despite really truly not wanting to be drinking again. Is it a F it moment or an obsession/craving that becomes too much? This is the part that I struggle to have compassion for. Once in the grip of it I get it, but not what propels that first drink after a period of sobriety.
Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 368
I think maybe I phrased that poorly. I don't mean the cause, that would be quite a discovery indeed! More if there is a common thought process in the run up to a relapse, what 'struggling' might feel like. Does that make sense?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 222
I cant speak for everyone, but I think majority of the time (as it was for me) there was always the hope of being able to "get away with it" or that "Im not that bad" or whatever other similar rationalization.
FULLY accepting 100% that you are an alcoholic is a difficult thing that can take a very long time to finally do. I knew I had a problem years before I got sober, but somewhere inside there was always a small part that was lingering in some form of denial/hopefulness that I would somehow "outsmart" it.
The urges dont magically disappear once you come to that realization, but it definitely gives one a far stronger foundation for maintaining sobriety when all doubt has been removed.
FULLY accepting 100% that you are an alcoholic is a difficult thing that can take a very long time to finally do. I knew I had a problem years before I got sober, but somewhere inside there was always a small part that was lingering in some form of denial/hopefulness that I would somehow "outsmart" it.
The urges dont magically disappear once you come to that realization, but it definitely gives one a far stronger foundation for maintaining sobriety when all doubt has been removed.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 143
With me alot of time, it was "just this 1 time" because I would fool myself acting like I am more productive drinking because my anxiety is less. When in reality, I will just mess around on internet and text girls.
Truth is, I need to be on benzos but never get prescribed enough. I confided to 1 Dr. about my addiction so because of that, he always provides me weak crap that doesnt even work.
Truth is, I need to be on benzos but never get prescribed enough. I confided to 1 Dr. about my addiction so because of that, he always provides me weak crap that doesnt even work.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
I am just going to throw in that EFT is a great tool to deal with anxiety -and it's free. I like Brad Yates on YouTube . . .for whatever it is worth.
I have anxiety so I understand how torturous it can be. I have been helped by B Vitamins, aromatherapy (essential oils), EFT, and most recently healing my core wounds. Prayer is also helpful.
Just in case any of these ideas might help someone. That's what we Alanon's do . . . ha ha!
I have anxiety so I understand how torturous it can be. I have been helped by B Vitamins, aromatherapy (essential oils), EFT, and most recently healing my core wounds. Prayer is also helpful.
Just in case any of these ideas might help someone. That's what we Alanon's do . . . ha ha!
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
But what goes through people head when they relapse repeatedly every few months despite really truly not wanting to be drinking again. Is it a F it moment or an obsession/craving that becomes too much? This is the part that I struggle to have compassion for.
what went through my head? a number of things. from rational "this is insane" to "this time, i CAN control it. and i WILL control it." in spite of countless evidence to the contrary.
personally, i've never asked for nor wanted anyone's compassion for my former struggles with repeated returns to drinking. why would i?
lack of judgmentalism, yes, that is a basis for a conversation and increased understanding and acceptance.
what went through my head? a number of things. from rational "this is insane" to "this time, i CAN control it. and i WILL control it." in spite of countless evidence to the contrary.
personally, i've never asked for nor wanted anyone's compassion for my former struggles with repeated returns to drinking. why would i?
lack of judgmentalism, yes, that is a basis for a conversation and increased understanding and acceptance.
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
Originally Posted by shil2587
Could I add a question to this thread? I get that during active drinking it's extremely hard to pull up and out of the nose dive. But what goes through people head when they relapse repeatedly every few months despite really truly not wanting to be drinking again. Is it a F it moment or an obsession/craving that becomes too much? This is the part that I struggle to have compassion for. Once in the grip of it I get it, but not what propels that first drink after a period of sobriety.
More specifically for me, a mental obsession with alcohol that doesn't go away just because I stop drinking. I have gone long periods of time without drinking while still having the mental obsession, it was just laying dormant. When the right set of circumstances were set into motion I started exhibiting all of the behaviors of an active alcoholic leading up to my relapse, it was really just a matter of time before I drank again. When I quit drinking all that I did was remove the alcohol.
What sayings like "if you sober up a drunken horse thief you still have a horse thief" or "if nothing changes then nothing changes" is that alcoholism runs deeper than just drinking. If an alcoholic doesn't address the underlying causes behind their destructive drinking they are bound to repeat it.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 204
Seek,
My perspective after 23 years of drinking is that hangovers could be tolerated easily enough as alcohol was my way of coping with a world were i was always the outsider looking in. In those years i never had a period of sobriety other than brief jail and hospital stays and even then, i hit the liquor stores before i even made it home from those.
The temptation to drink is all around me as i live over a liquor store and have multiple sources of alcohol within 400 yards from my front door. Staying sober in a such a place is easy. My future success in life depends on sobriety. If i succumb to alcohol again i might as well commit suicide as i'll never win in life.
My perspective after 23 years of drinking is that hangovers could be tolerated easily enough as alcohol was my way of coping with a world were i was always the outsider looking in. In those years i never had a period of sobriety other than brief jail and hospital stays and even then, i hit the liquor stores before i even made it home from those.
The temptation to drink is all around me as i live over a liquor store and have multiple sources of alcohol within 400 yards from my front door. Staying sober in a such a place is easy. My future success in life depends on sobriety. If i succumb to alcohol again i might as well commit suicide as i'll never win in life.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
fini . . . i am not attempting to be compassionate for the alcoholic, although that might be more pleasant than judgmentalism . . . it is not my job to judge others - i do myself and others a disservice when I do so - so I am really wanting to do "right action" (from a Buddhist perspective).
Also, are you mixing compassion up with pity? Compassion, to me, is just having my heart open and not judging . . . it is loving and attempting to understand from a place of love instead of judgment.
Carbonized: I wish you such success! Sounds like you have a good plan!
Also, are you mixing compassion up with pity? Compassion, to me, is just having my heart open and not judging . . . it is loving and attempting to understand from a place of love instead of judgment.
Carbonized: I wish you such success! Sounds like you have a good plan!
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
no, seek, not mixing up compassion with pity.
my only points were that i, personally, never wanted or expected or asked for compassion or understanding about this, and that attempting and working on moving past judging is a grand thing.
i have plenty of my own struggles with that
my only points were that i, personally, never wanted or expected or asked for compassion or understanding about this, and that attempting and working on moving past judging is a grand thing.
i have plenty of my own struggles with that
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
