Questions for Hardcore, Chronic Alcoholics
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: California
Posts: 499
From an aa speaker today. Too many of us stand in the fire, flames all around us looking for the source of the fire, a match or whatever instead of putting out the fire first then taking the time to find the possible source.
I think after 30 years of heavy drinking trying to stop mostly for external reasons, I am putting out the fire and have found professional and personal resources that may have me discovering what ignited and fueled my drinking. In any respect, I'm exactly where I am supposed to be and doing exactly what I am supposed to be doing.
I think after 30 years of heavy drinking trying to stop mostly for external reasons, I am putting out the fire and have found professional and personal resources that may have me discovering what ignited and fueled my drinking. In any respect, I'm exactly where I am supposed to be and doing exactly what I am supposed to be doing.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: C.C. Ma.
Posts: 3,697
Hi.
This is a great thread for me as it reminds me of so many of my “mush mind” thinking and actions, not too many healthy.
I at times forget my addiction even with continued attendance at AA meetings after a lot of sober years without a desire to drink. A very good friend and therapist says alcoholics are the most difficult to work with in a successful manner.
Years ago it was said that alcoholics have in general a higher than normal IQ. So it’s not intelligence that gets us sober.
I heard the following years ago and use it often: 1st we have to get honest with our self about OUR drinking then we accept the fact that we cannot drink in safety.
It’s that simple but we alcoholics have a tendency to complicate a lot in our lives and never achieve long lasting sobriety unfortunately.
Thanks for the topic.
BE WELL
This is a great thread for me as it reminds me of so many of my “mush mind” thinking and actions, not too many healthy.
I at times forget my addiction even with continued attendance at AA meetings after a lot of sober years without a desire to drink. A very good friend and therapist says alcoholics are the most difficult to work with in a successful manner.
Years ago it was said that alcoholics have in general a higher than normal IQ. So it’s not intelligence that gets us sober.
I heard the following years ago and use it often: 1st we have to get honest with our self about OUR drinking then we accept the fact that we cannot drink in safety.
It’s that simple but we alcoholics have a tendency to complicate a lot in our lives and never achieve long lasting sobriety unfortunately.
Thanks for the topic.
BE WELL
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
I'm in AA and instead of trying to explain it with my words I will use some words from th big book that are true for me. There is more in the chapters " more about alcoholism" and " tere is a solution" in the big book. Also doc silkworth, a man that worked with and talked to more alcoholics than anyone I know, wrote quite a bit on the subject.
How true this is, few realize. In a vague way their families and friends sense that these drinkers are abnormal, but everybody hopefully awaits the day when the sufferer will rouse himself from his lethargy and assert his power of will.
The tragic truth is that if the man be a real alcoholic, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost
control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how!" Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" Only to have that thought supplanted by "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink." Or "What's the use anyhow?"
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics
How true this is, few realize. In a vague way their families and friends sense that these drinkers are abnormal, but everybody hopefully awaits the day when the sufferer will rouse himself from his lethargy and assert his power of will.
The tragic truth is that if the man be a real alcoholic, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost
control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how!" Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" Only to have that thought supplanted by "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink." Or "What's the use anyhow?"
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
seek,
i appreciate you're trying to understand this and drop judgments in favor of compassion.
compassion is "suffering with", and that is difficult when you're seeing the suffering as self-imposed by free choice and lack of awareness.
i had major trouble with that through my 3 decades of drinking.
yes, of course i was aware of the self-destruction. i'm not stupid or self-unaware.
yes of course i committed to healthier ways.
yes of course i decided never to drink again because i didn't want the consequences.
yes of course i spoke with a counselor.
a "yes of course" to any and all reasonable propositions.
and yes of course i couldn't accept, because i couldn't understand, that this thing wasn't yielding to reason.
or willpower. insight. strength.
this "thing" impaired my free choices; they weren't free.
that this makes no sense is so.
from where i'm sitting now (sober several years), i can suggest this: if you want to drop the judgments, then work on that. regardless of your level of understanding or lack thereof. work on not judging despite not understanding.
that has proven a worthwhile effort for me in all kinds of areas.
i appreciate you're trying to understand this and drop judgments in favor of compassion.
compassion is "suffering with", and that is difficult when you're seeing the suffering as self-imposed by free choice and lack of awareness.
i had major trouble with that through my 3 decades of drinking.
yes, of course i was aware of the self-destruction. i'm not stupid or self-unaware.
yes of course i committed to healthier ways.
yes of course i decided never to drink again because i didn't want the consequences.
yes of course i spoke with a counselor.
a "yes of course" to any and all reasonable propositions.
and yes of course i couldn't accept, because i couldn't understand, that this thing wasn't yielding to reason.
or willpower. insight. strength.
this "thing" impaired my free choices; they weren't free.
that this makes no sense is so.
from where i'm sitting now (sober several years), i can suggest this: if you want to drop the judgments, then work on that. regardless of your level of understanding or lack thereof. work on not judging despite not understanding.
that has proven a worthwhile effort for me in all kinds of areas.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
Thanks, fini . . .i am the kind of person who needs to have things make sense TO ME . . . i am stubborn in that way, and this thread is actually helping me understand a little bit more, so it has been very useful to me.
Each time my relative goes into rehab or detox or is on a seemingly healthy path, the family is involved - we are supposed to be supportive - so we visit, listen to plans, etc. It is torturous in a way, because we cannot say what we really think - the system is not set up that way and it also would not be helpful - so we are left to limp along and walk a fine line between hope and denial . . . as long as there is life, there is hope - and we are encouraged to hope and to take part in the recovery to varying degrees.
This last time when I heard some of the plans it set me on a tailspin that I am attempting to recover from and it's been a couple of months.
There is no way to protect myself from my own feelings of grief and sorrow and fear (yet I work on detachment daily). It's hard to stay detached when you see someone you love struggling.
I have gone through the gamut of feelings and understandings . . . it is all just so sad. It's worse that it is from the person's own doing (harder to process).
Thank you again.
Each time my relative goes into rehab or detox or is on a seemingly healthy path, the family is involved - we are supposed to be supportive - so we visit, listen to plans, etc. It is torturous in a way, because we cannot say what we really think - the system is not set up that way and it also would not be helpful - so we are left to limp along and walk a fine line between hope and denial . . . as long as there is life, there is hope - and we are encouraged to hope and to take part in the recovery to varying degrees.
This last time when I heard some of the plans it set me on a tailspin that I am attempting to recover from and it's been a couple of months.
There is no way to protect myself from my own feelings of grief and sorrow and fear (yet I work on detachment daily). It's hard to stay detached when you see someone you love struggling.
I have gone through the gamut of feelings and understandings . . . it is all just so sad. It's worse that it is from the person's own doing (harder to process).
Thank you again.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,122
Sorry about your struggles with your relative who suffers from alcoholism. I am hoping you are involved in NA and are receiving support with this. Its never easy to watch a loved one destroy themselves with drugs.
I appreciate you sharing your questions and concerns with us as this thread as been very helpful. I appreciate everyone taking the time out to describe their experiences with alcoholism.
I appreciate you sharing your questions and concerns with us as this thread as been very helpful. I appreciate everyone taking the time out to describe their experiences with alcoholism.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Thanks, fini . . .i am the kind of person who needs to have things make sense TO ME . . . i am stubborn in that way,
seek,
yes, i'm that kind of person, too.
so you can maybe get a glimpse how the irrationality of my own behaviour in spite of my best , sensible, reasonable and reasoned decisions and intentions...well, how that in itself was cause of grave despair. i couldn't understand it!! but i kept trying to. and as i said before, "it" wouldn't yield to reason.
i got to a point where i was convinced i couldn't quit because i coudn't understand....alternately: that i needed to understand the why of it before i could quit. that kept me drinking a good number of more years. whether that was me setting it up that way...don't know. i know i kept going back to it when i didn't want to.
i do want to say something regarding this: Each time my relative goes into rehab or detox or is on a seemingly healthy path, the family is involved - we are supposed to be supportive - so we visit, listen to plans, etc. It is torturous in a way, because we cannot say what we really think - the system is not set up that way and it also would not be helpful - so we are left to limp along and walk a fine line between hope and denial . . . as long as there is life, there is hope - and we are encouraged to hope and to take part in the recovery to varying degrees.
yes, you're 'supposed' to be supportive, and support is invaluable.
but: limping along, hiding your true feelings, waffling between hope and denial. mmm...sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. that is a personal opinion, i am NOT a therapist. seems to me it would be more useful if you figured out your boundaries and communicated those. boundaries and support are not mutually exclusive. nor is support and expressing your feelings.
there needs to be room for you to be supportive without having to be a twisted pretzel.
yes to the difficulty of detaching when someone you love is struggling. that is tough; i have children, so i know.
and yeah, must be much more difficult if it looks solely self-imposed, self-initiated.
i'm sorry you're suffering, and appreciate you're wanting to get to better understanding. can't see how that's possible, ultimately. but that needn't stop you from moving past judgments. as you know
seek,
yes, i'm that kind of person, too.
so you can maybe get a glimpse how the irrationality of my own behaviour in spite of my best , sensible, reasonable and reasoned decisions and intentions...well, how that in itself was cause of grave despair. i couldn't understand it!! but i kept trying to. and as i said before, "it" wouldn't yield to reason.
i got to a point where i was convinced i couldn't quit because i coudn't understand....alternately: that i needed to understand the why of it before i could quit. that kept me drinking a good number of more years. whether that was me setting it up that way...don't know. i know i kept going back to it when i didn't want to.
i do want to say something regarding this: Each time my relative goes into rehab or detox or is on a seemingly healthy path, the family is involved - we are supposed to be supportive - so we visit, listen to plans, etc. It is torturous in a way, because we cannot say what we really think - the system is not set up that way and it also would not be helpful - so we are left to limp along and walk a fine line between hope and denial . . . as long as there is life, there is hope - and we are encouraged to hope and to take part in the recovery to varying degrees.
yes, you're 'supposed' to be supportive, and support is invaluable.
but: limping along, hiding your true feelings, waffling between hope and denial. mmm...sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. that is a personal opinion, i am NOT a therapist. seems to me it would be more useful if you figured out your boundaries and communicated those. boundaries and support are not mutually exclusive. nor is support and expressing your feelings.
there needs to be room for you to be supportive without having to be a twisted pretzel.
yes to the difficulty of detaching when someone you love is struggling. that is tough; i have children, so i know.
and yeah, must be much more difficult if it looks solely self-imposed, self-initiated.
i'm sorry you're suffering, and appreciate you're wanting to get to better understanding. can't see how that's possible, ultimately. but that needn't stop you from moving past judgments. as you know
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I firmly believe that no non-alcoholic can really understand, and none of us really do, either. I know what the experience was like, but I don't know WHY, and I no longer need to. I've accepted that it is what it is, I know what I have to do to stay sober and recovered, so trying to make sense of it is a big fat waste of time for me. Maybe the researchers will figure it out someday but it doesn't make any difference to me whether they do or not.
My alcoholism developed later in life. Before that I was married to two alcoholics, and I was just as baffled before it happened to me, but now I REALLY get it. I feel so bad, now, that I dragged my year-and-a-half sober husband across the country where he had to get a job to support us while I was in law school. If I'd known then what I know now I never would have asked it of him. Fortunately, he was in AA and stayed sober and will celebrate 35 years in January. But geeze, no 18-month-sober person should have all that dumped on him.
And there is really, truly, relatively little you can do for your alcoholic to "support" him, other than things like not inviting him to booze-filled celebrations in the very beginning, or offering him a drink, or berating him for past mistakes or something. It's possible to be UNsupportive, but being "supportive" in the sense of doing things a certain way is of limited value in terms of helping someone stay sober.
My alcoholism developed later in life. Before that I was married to two alcoholics, and I was just as baffled before it happened to me, but now I REALLY get it. I feel so bad, now, that I dragged my year-and-a-half sober husband across the country where he had to get a job to support us while I was in law school. If I'd known then what I know now I never would have asked it of him. Fortunately, he was in AA and stayed sober and will celebrate 35 years in January. But geeze, no 18-month-sober person should have all that dumped on him.
And there is really, truly, relatively little you can do for your alcoholic to "support" him, other than things like not inviting him to booze-filled celebrations in the very beginning, or offering him a drink, or berating him for past mistakes or something. It's possible to be UNsupportive, but being "supportive" in the sense of doing things a certain way is of limited value in terms of helping someone stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by seek 
Hi There!
I am attempting to not judge alcoholics who "don't learn from experience," but I'm having a hard time understanding (and I "get" that I will never truly understand, as I do not have the "disease" of alcoholism).
I am confused by the following:
1) In my experience, getting really super drunk creates a horrible hangover. I can understand doing this a few times until it clicks that "feeling bad was caused by drinking too much." I can't understand why anyone would "agree" on some level to live in so much agony. Does it register that the miserable hangover is caused by the booze or is the entire process unconscious? I would love to hear actual experiences of people who have lived like this for years.
2) When you begin to have negative consequences (lose your stuff, your job, your relationships) what do you say to yourself? And when you don't stop and things keep getting worse, what are you thinking?
3) If you have been in and out of detoxes and rehabs, what is your thinking each time you land there again (just before you decide to "go out" again)? What is your life philosophy at that point?
I am struggling to understand, as I said, and know I never really will be able to, but perhaps I might be able to have compassion even without understanding instead of harsh judgment . . . that is what I am shooting for. From where I stand now, I just think "they know what they are doing and they are making these choices knowing what the consequences are" - and then I wonder about "not learning from experience" and then I start to judge. Trying to gain compassion.
Thanks for any insights into the internal processes and thinking that goes on.
I am attempting to not judge alcoholics who "don't learn from experience," but I'm having a hard time understanding (and I "get" that I will never truly understand, as I do not have the "disease" of alcoholism).
I am confused by the following:
1) In my experience, getting really super drunk creates a horrible hangover. I can understand doing this a few times until it clicks that "feeling bad was caused by drinking too much." I can't understand why anyone would "agree" on some level to live in so much agony. Does it register that the miserable hangover is caused by the booze or is the entire process unconscious? I would love to hear actual experiences of people who have lived like this for years.
2) When you begin to have negative consequences (lose your stuff, your job, your relationships) what do you say to yourself? And when you don't stop and things keep getting worse, what are you thinking?
3) If you have been in and out of detoxes and rehabs, what is your thinking each time you land there again (just before you decide to "go out" again)? What is your life philosophy at that point?
I am struggling to understand, as I said, and know I never really will be able to, but perhaps I might be able to have compassion even without understanding instead of harsh judgment . . . that is what I am shooting for. From where I stand now, I just think "they know what they are doing and they are making these choices knowing what the consequences are" - and then I wonder about "not learning from experience" and then I start to judge. Trying to gain compassion.
Thanks for any insights into the internal processes and thinking that goes on.
Alcoholics forget that they burn themselves on the stove time and time again. Thats the baffling feature of alcoholics. When you start losing stuff its the F-it attitude and you go harder. What are we thinking? Not straight, we are alcoholics, when it comes to booze, we are irrational, insane! Each time you land in rehab or detox you are thinking to smooth over relations with spouse, or boss, or try to get job back, get license back. You should go to alanon, and read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It states a story of one of our co-founders, who put together a big deal in the deprssion era, who would profit hugely from the deal. At closing of the deal a bottle of applejack whiskey went around the table, Bill refused the first go around. The second time it went around he got a little bit of peer pressure and he gave in. The deal fell through. He was broke at the time and would profit emensely from the deal, but it did not go through, so Bill and his wife went even more broke.
Another story, a fellow lost everything due to drinking. Was working at a dealership he onced owned. Figured he would go to the country to sell a car. Hit up a diner. His thoughts were if he had some whiskey in his milk on a full stomach nothing bad would happen. He took the drink, bad things happened.
Alcoholics have a trip-wire in their head when it comes to booze. In every other respect they can be very smart human beings. But when it comes to alcohol they are irrational and insane. Insanity comes from the belief that things will be different this time. I had a certain amount of time clean and sober, x amount of years. I should be able to drink normally. Knowing full well they played that came years ago, and got drunk.
See we forget ALL the bad things that happened. We remember the good times, the last one being 49 yrs ago. Our minds tell us the lie, we can drink normally, we can have fun, nothing bad will happen, I can control and enjoy my drinking. Those are all lies to get us to that first drink. Once we swallow that first drink we are done for. Off to the races, another drunken spree.
Look at it the same way as a boy burning his bum on the stove, heating water for the metal tub for all the boys to get clean on in 1891. Normies burn their bum once, maybe twice, MAYBE, and they learn. Not so with us alcoholics. Thats why this disease is a) progressive, b) chronic, and c) fatal.
Look those 3 terms up in the dictionary and its bulls-eye for us alcoholics.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
To the last few responses:
I was in Alanon for many years, re: spouses/family system, et al. I have just gone back due to the current issue.
I have read some of Alcoholics Anonymous and know a lot about the subject.
My MOTIVE on this thread is not to glean information that will help my relative (I am way past that kind of thinking), but to help myself because the entire situation is a nightmare for me. I am doing the best I can dealing with it, and I am doing "okay" at the moment.
On the being supportive issue . . . if you have not been in the position I am in, you would not know what I am talking about. Treatment centers get the entire family involved. We all drove hours during the first stay to go to the weekly "Family Days." We were told this was crucial to the alcoholics recovery, so we did it.
In every other treatment venue since then (detox, other rehab), same-o, same-o - they (the counselors in the center, the director, the entire organization) is set up to encourage the family to support the alcoholic. There is counseling, Family Days, and other stuff.
I have a personal spiritual counselor whom I go to to process with. I know, and she confirmed, that it would not be useful for me to lay MY issues out around this to the alcoholic - they are obviously in no frame of mind to care/understand/other . . . it would not serve anyone well . . . I am not encouraged to "stuff" my feelings - but it is up to me to figure out a way to process them that does not include the alcoholic. They just are not "well enough" to be actual reciprocal parties in a "relationship" (there actually is no "relationship," because that would require two people interacting and it just is not possible).
My relative also needs various resources that the detoxes and rehabs and SLE's expect the family to provide. This is a very slippery slope for me at this time, because early on, we all (many people in the family) contributed a lot of time, money, resources, support, etc. Most of us are burned out and have been negatively impacted - and I do not want to enable. It's hard to see someone you love lose everything and it's natural to want to "help," but all of our help has not helped (and the help was sanctioned and encouraged by alcohol counselors, treatment centers, etc.).
I am praying for my relative - I love him so much. I wish I didn't love him. When I get into fear, anxiety, anger, etc., I use prayer to elevate my thoughts and it is providing me with comfort at the moment.
Getting back to the subject: I have had the question about "not learning from experience" on my mind for a very long time. And no, I can't really understand, but somehow it helps in some indefinable way hearing people talk about their personal experiences and how it was for them. I was judging my relative by my values and that is not a helpful perspective. I don't want to judge. I want to detach with as much loving compassion as is possible.
And when your loved one is in detox or rehab there is hope - and hope is very dangerous combined with everyone's denial (the alcoholic's who will tell you of pie-in-the-sky plans that everyone wants to believe) . . . the alternative is no hope and you can't go there either - so it's a very delicate emotional balance that is not for the faint of heart. I honestly don't know how much longer I can maintain my equilibrium, but I have to keep trying to have peace of mind and hope for my relative.
Thank you.
I was in Alanon for many years, re: spouses/family system, et al. I have just gone back due to the current issue.
I have read some of Alcoholics Anonymous and know a lot about the subject.
My MOTIVE on this thread is not to glean information that will help my relative (I am way past that kind of thinking), but to help myself because the entire situation is a nightmare for me. I am doing the best I can dealing with it, and I am doing "okay" at the moment.
On the being supportive issue . . . if you have not been in the position I am in, you would not know what I am talking about. Treatment centers get the entire family involved. We all drove hours during the first stay to go to the weekly "Family Days." We were told this was crucial to the alcoholics recovery, so we did it.
In every other treatment venue since then (detox, other rehab), same-o, same-o - they (the counselors in the center, the director, the entire organization) is set up to encourage the family to support the alcoholic. There is counseling, Family Days, and other stuff.
I have a personal spiritual counselor whom I go to to process with. I know, and she confirmed, that it would not be useful for me to lay MY issues out around this to the alcoholic - they are obviously in no frame of mind to care/understand/other . . . it would not serve anyone well . . . I am not encouraged to "stuff" my feelings - but it is up to me to figure out a way to process them that does not include the alcoholic. They just are not "well enough" to be actual reciprocal parties in a "relationship" (there actually is no "relationship," because that would require two people interacting and it just is not possible).
My relative also needs various resources that the detoxes and rehabs and SLE's expect the family to provide. This is a very slippery slope for me at this time, because early on, we all (many people in the family) contributed a lot of time, money, resources, support, etc. Most of us are burned out and have been negatively impacted - and I do not want to enable. It's hard to see someone you love lose everything and it's natural to want to "help," but all of our help has not helped (and the help was sanctioned and encouraged by alcohol counselors, treatment centers, etc.).
I am praying for my relative - I love him so much. I wish I didn't love him. When I get into fear, anxiety, anger, etc., I use prayer to elevate my thoughts and it is providing me with comfort at the moment.
Getting back to the subject: I have had the question about "not learning from experience" on my mind for a very long time. And no, I can't really understand, but somehow it helps in some indefinable way hearing people talk about their personal experiences and how it was for them. I was judging my relative by my values and that is not a helpful perspective. I don't want to judge. I want to detach with as much loving compassion as is possible.
And when your loved one is in detox or rehab there is hope - and hope is very dangerous combined with everyone's denial (the alcoholic's who will tell you of pie-in-the-sky plans that everyone wants to believe) . . . the alternative is no hope and you can't go there either - so it's a very delicate emotional balance that is not for the faint of heart. I honestly don't know how much longer I can maintain my equilibrium, but I have to keep trying to have peace of mind and hope for my relative.
Thank you.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 443
This passage, written by Eve Tushnet, has always struck me as a good summation of the experience:
"When I was drinking my will really was damaged. The scriptural metaphor of slavery, bondage of the will, resonates with me more than metaphors of disease, but they’re getting at the same sense of helpless compulsion. I made and broke all kinds of plans and resolutions and promises. My imagination was distorted: I literally couldn’t imagine a future without drinking.
"I am convinced that there were times, within this compulsion and constriction, when I was capable of choice. Sometimes I chose heaven—often tiny little choices which seemed pointless at the time, like the choice to read a book about addiction even though I was stressed and scared, or sincere prayers which were quickly swamped by rationalization, exhaustion, and fear—and a lot of times I chose the other place. But even in my own past, I doubt I could accurately gauge the depth of my own freedom in any individual moment."
"When I was drinking my will really was damaged. The scriptural metaphor of slavery, bondage of the will, resonates with me more than metaphors of disease, but they’re getting at the same sense of helpless compulsion. I made and broke all kinds of plans and resolutions and promises. My imagination was distorted: I literally couldn’t imagine a future without drinking.
"I am convinced that there were times, within this compulsion and constriction, when I was capable of choice. Sometimes I chose heaven—often tiny little choices which seemed pointless at the time, like the choice to read a book about addiction even though I was stressed and scared, or sincere prayers which were quickly swamped by rationalization, exhaustion, and fear—and a lot of times I chose the other place. But even in my own past, I doubt I could accurately gauge the depth of my own freedom in any individual moment."
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
The advice in the AA book is to treat the person with the same compassion and empathy you would if the person had any other illness.
No one turns on a person with diabetes or MS.
"why can't you just eat some bloody cake you idiot diabetic? "
"stop faking that limp, put down your godamn walking stick and come walk round the museum with me, I'm so sick of you copping out with that MS crap all the time "
No one thinks or says that.
But with alcoholism.... It's like we mean to be a pain in everyone's ass, and so we get treated like one and spoken to like one.
And yet, I believe I have an abnormal reaction to alcohol that was purely a genetic bullet.
Didn't ask for it, sure as hell don't want it, anymore than someone asks for or enjoys having diabetes or MS.
It's just a world of ignorance that sees me and those like me, get looked down upon by those who have a normal reaction to alcohol.
It's quite sad really, but I don't expect it to change anytime soon.
There is even science behind it now, alcohol is broken down in the body in 4 stages... Alcoholic folk don't have that last vital break down stage.
Just like a percentage of the population react different to peanuts or seafood... But most people have no trouble with either.
But like I have alluded to.... You'll probably never hear anyone lose their rag at someone with anaphalaxis.
No one turns on a person with diabetes or MS.
"why can't you just eat some bloody cake you idiot diabetic? "
"stop faking that limp, put down your godamn walking stick and come walk round the museum with me, I'm so sick of you copping out with that MS crap all the time "
No one thinks or says that.
But with alcoholism.... It's like we mean to be a pain in everyone's ass, and so we get treated like one and spoken to like one.
And yet, I believe I have an abnormal reaction to alcohol that was purely a genetic bullet.
Didn't ask for it, sure as hell don't want it, anymore than someone asks for or enjoys having diabetes or MS.
It's just a world of ignorance that sees me and those like me, get looked down upon by those who have a normal reaction to alcohol.
It's quite sad really, but I don't expect it to change anytime soon.
There is even science behind it now, alcohol is broken down in the body in 4 stages... Alcoholic folk don't have that last vital break down stage.
Just like a percentage of the population react different to peanuts or seafood... But most people have no trouble with either.
But like I have alluded to.... You'll probably never hear anyone lose their rag at someone with anaphalaxis.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
Hawk: What makes it different for those on the outside is that the person is doing it to themselves and that by helping them, we enable them . . . it makes the whole thing very complicated and difficult to maneuver from day-to-day. It's just hard.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
I know, my sister is 1200 miles away, probably drinking (if not full blown drunk by now on a Saturday afternoon) and she'll be looking after my nephew who is about a year old.
She had half her liver taken off 3 years ago, still drinking, not scared off alcohol by severe physical consequences.
Not prepared to seek help for the sake of her son.
And she has the most rock solid enabler of a husband that I have ever seen.
He just won't take a backward step, defends her to the hilt.
Everytime I speak to her, I just have to pretend everything is "normal " and wait for the rock bottom.
Like parking an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff really, but in the case of alcoholic folk.... There isn't much else to do.
She had half her liver taken off 3 years ago, still drinking, not scared off alcohol by severe physical consequences.
Not prepared to seek help for the sake of her son.
And she has the most rock solid enabler of a husband that I have ever seen.
He just won't take a backward step, defends her to the hilt.
Everytime I speak to her, I just have to pretend everything is "normal " and wait for the rock bottom.
Like parking an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff really, but in the case of alcoholic folk.... There isn't much else to do.
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,597
The hangovers and injuries happened earlier in my drinking career. In the latter stages, I worked out how much I could drink each day (and buy that amount each day) and still "function". On work nights, I would drink in the evening and time the popping of sleeping pills and benzos to knock myself out before I could get the idea of driving drunk to get some more booze. I hate throwing up and I hate hangovers, so I worked out how to manage it so it didn't routinely happen. I just felt like crap all the time without having what I would consider to be a hangover.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 812
I agree if you want to better understand, read the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
I can empathize with your situation, though. Alcoholism is an illness that is difficult to comprehend, but alcoholics are also incredibly selfish, self seeking, and dishonest. It can be a real challenge to have compassion for someone like that. I get it.
I can empathize with your situation, though. Alcoholism is an illness that is difficult to comprehend, but alcoholics are also incredibly selfish, self seeking, and dishonest. It can be a real challenge to have compassion for someone like that. I get it.
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