Court-ordered AA meeting attendance ?
The comments section of that link demonstrates the double edged sword of the disease model of addiction. For those with the disease there is little or no chance of a cure. Most of the comments condemn the man's future based on his past and they feel this is the way to view alcoholics. Sad really, I know accepting that mode of thought kept me from attempting recovery for a long time.
My consequences were minimal compared to this guy, and I'm well aware of that skeptical look I receive when I tell people I've quit drinking. So I can understand why most people would think this guy has a snowball's chance in hell. The only thing most of us can do to prove our worth is to stay sober. My past actions have made my words almost meaningless. The only way I can get the message across is by my actions. And I'm fine with that.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 52
The comments section of that link demonstrates the double edged sword of the disease model of addiction. For those with the disease there is little or no chance of a cure. Most of the comments condemn the man's future based on his past and they feel this is the way to view alcoholics. Sad really, I know accepting that mode of thought kept me from attempting recovery for a long time.
Rather, like any chronic disease, it must be controlled through behavioral modifications, healthy lifestyle, support and, in some cases, medication.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,819
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
'Tis a violation of the Constitution (church and state) and AA's traditions but in the bigger picture nothing helps more than people helping others find their way and that has been going on for eons everywhere. Personally, I believe the net and sharing info/experience has/will help more sooner than anything that has come before.
Recovered
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,129
I made the same choice. Not the second to last time mind you (where I chose monitoring), but the last time I had the choice. I wasn't ready. I knew I was going to drink.
I was not ready to quit drinking for good until I was ready to quit drinking for good. Period. It wasn't that hard for me to decide. I drank for 6 more years after that. THEN I wanted to stop for good and go to any extreme to do so.
For me, being accountable to the state kept me in my addiction longer. I even cheated on urinalysis screens (now THAT'S a funny story....). I needed to be accountable to myself, a higher power, and my group/sponsor instead.
Today I take meetings into the jails and institutions as my group's treatment rep. It's my way of giving back. If someone on the inside wants to get sober with AA, they can.
I was not ready to quit drinking for good until I was ready to quit drinking for good. Period. It wasn't that hard for me to decide. I drank for 6 more years after that. THEN I wanted to stop for good and go to any extreme to do so.
For me, being accountable to the state kept me in my addiction longer. I even cheated on urinalysis screens (now THAT'S a funny story....). I needed to be accountable to myself, a higher power, and my group/sponsor instead.
Today I take meetings into the jails and institutions as my group's treatment rep. It's my way of giving back. If someone on the inside wants to get sober with AA, they can.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Here, EH!!!
Posts: 1,337
There is absolutely no difference between a drug user, alcoholic, gambler, sex addict, workaholic, fitness freak, over-eater or any number of other addictions. They are all the same, but AA is for alcoholics.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 52
My husband has always been sentenced to AA AND jail. AA doesn't work for him because he believes AA is no longer enough about God being the ONLY higher power. He believes it's been too "equalized" for those whose higher power can be anything they choose, including a light bulb. But I also think that is just an excuse not to go. In my case for "us" (as alcoholism is a "family disease") court ordered AA never worked for my husband. Makes me wonder if they would have settled for Celebrate Recovery? Probably not, as they only met once or twice a week in our town. The courts usually issue 90 meetings in 90 days. Plus, I think AA is somehow accredited or more "official" somehow to the judicial system, but I don't know for sure.
Wary of what? That they will start drinking, or smoking, or using heroin again? Surely concluding that they are cured would give them the best chance of succeeding. Why would you think that including failure in a plan is a good idea?
I quit smoking as well as quit drinking. Am I cured of smoking? Of course I am. For good? Of course I quit for good, why else would I quit? You apparently think I am going to fail and start smoking again, but I certainly don't. Just like with drinking, failure is not an option, not even a remote possibility.
I quit smoking as well as quit drinking. Am I cured of smoking? Of course I am. For good? Of course I quit for good, why else would I quit? You apparently think I am going to fail and start smoking again, but I certainly don't. Just like with drinking, failure is not an option, not even a remote possibility.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 52
Wary of what? That they will start drinking, or smoking, or using heroin again? Surely concluding that they are cured would give them the best chance of succeeding. Why would you think that including failure in a plan is a good idea?
I quit smoking as well as quit drinking. Am I cured of smoking? Of course I am. For good? Of course I quit for good, why else would I quit? You apparently think I am going to fail and start smoking again, but I certainly don't. Just like with drinking, failure is not an option, not even a remote possibility.
I quit smoking as well as quit drinking. Am I cured of smoking? Of course I am. For good? Of course I quit for good, why else would I quit? You apparently think I am going to fail and start smoking again, but I certainly don't. Just like with drinking, failure is not an option, not even a remote possibility.
My belief is that addressing addiction as a chronic disease (much like asthma, diabetes, epilepsy, etc.) requires a life-long effort to keep it controlled. Once established physiologically, it typically remains a potential relapse threat that can be triggered almost instantly when reintroduction of a substance occurs.
When an addict believes they are "cured", there can be unfortunate results that include a change in situational awareness, behavioral patterns and a reduction in commitment to recovery since it's believed to be no longer necessary.
I'm never comfortable when recovering alcoholics/addicts somehow convince themselves they are now cured. Just my firmly held opinion having seen the downside results. Alternatively, I don't see the risk with treating this as a chronic condition that can be controlled but never totally cured.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Posts: 1,337
If you look at it like an allergy it makes complete and utter sense.
If someone is allergic to strawberries, they do not hang out in a strawberry patch, nor the fruit section of the grocery store, drinking Coca Cola. They read the ingredients of everything they eat, they ask questions at the restaurant about the food they are about to order, they stay well away from fruit stands on the side of the road. They know full well that for the rest of their life, they cant so much even touch a strawberry, because if they do they are going to break out in hives and have an allergic reaction.
This exact same statement is true with alcohol, the allergic reaction to alcohol is the phenomenon of craving. You crave more and more booze with each drink you take. The outcome of taking that drink is never good, sooner or later (because it is a progressive disease - which means it gets worse never better over time whether you drink or not) you are going to break out in handcuffs, or spots like Vancouver, Los Angeles, New York, Miami, Paris, London England. Or crash the car, lose the gf/wife/kids/license/your life/someone elses life/you lose alot of things when drinking thats a fact.
So what is the key to success? It starts off with putting the bottle down, not drinking. It does not however end there. A change in thinking must occur, because that is the root of the problem. Alcohol has nothing to do with our problem at all, it is but a by-product, or a symptom of a much larger, deadlier disease. And it is a disease, recognized by the American Medical Association back in the 50's I believe, when they said smoking wasnt harmful to your health. But even now, doctors alike agree that its a disease. Not a socially acceptable disease like Cancer, no we are shunned, we are the outcasts of society.
If someone is allergic to strawberries, they do not hang out in a strawberry patch, nor the fruit section of the grocery store, drinking Coca Cola. They read the ingredients of everything they eat, they ask questions at the restaurant about the food they are about to order, they stay well away from fruit stands on the side of the road. They know full well that for the rest of their life, they cant so much even touch a strawberry, because if they do they are going to break out in hives and have an allergic reaction.
This exact same statement is true with alcohol, the allergic reaction to alcohol is the phenomenon of craving. You crave more and more booze with each drink you take. The outcome of taking that drink is never good, sooner or later (because it is a progressive disease - which means it gets worse never better over time whether you drink or not) you are going to break out in handcuffs, or spots like Vancouver, Los Angeles, New York, Miami, Paris, London England. Or crash the car, lose the gf/wife/kids/license/your life/someone elses life/you lose alot of things when drinking thats a fact.
So what is the key to success? It starts off with putting the bottle down, not drinking. It does not however end there. A change in thinking must occur, because that is the root of the problem. Alcohol has nothing to do with our problem at all, it is but a by-product, or a symptom of a much larger, deadlier disease. And it is a disease, recognized by the American Medical Association back in the 50's I believe, when they said smoking wasnt harmful to your health. But even now, doctors alike agree that its a disease. Not a socially acceptable disease like Cancer, no we are shunned, we are the outcasts of society.
Matt, if you look into the history of the AMA and how they came to this disease pronouncement, you will see AA writ large. Look for Marty Mann, and her financial backer, someone named R. Brinkley Smithers, owner and operator of a rehab facility who stood to benefit dramatically from health insurance dollars that would flow into his organization, and others like it, as a direct result of their lobbying of the AMA. What you will not see is any medical or scientific evidence that this pronouncement has any basis in fact.
I agree that successful treatment of chronic diseases such as asthma, diabetes, epilepsy requires life long efforts and medical assistance for their successful management. These are not the same as addiction, something that is not amenable to medical intervention.
And no, doctors do not agree that this is a disease. In fact,
I agree that successful treatment of chronic diseases such as asthma, diabetes, epilepsy requires life long efforts and medical assistance for their successful management. These are not the same as addiction, something that is not amenable to medical intervention.
And no, doctors do not agree that this is a disease. In fact,
A survey of over 88,000 physicians in the U.S. found that "Only 49% of the physicians characterized alcoholism as a disease." Over 75% believed that the major causes of alcoholism are "personality and emotional problems."
Jones, R.W., and Helrich, A.R. Treatment of alcoholism by physicians in private practice: a national survey. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 1972, 33(1), 117.It is significant that a survey of doctors attending an annual conference of the the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA) found that 80% believed that alcoholism is simply bad behavior - - not a disease.
Hobbs, Thomas R. Managing alcoholism as a disease. Physician's News Digest, 1998 (February), p. 1.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 52
If you look at the dates of those articles mentioned, I think you'll see they are evidence of opinions published many years ago.
Much has been learned in the last 15-20 years about the science and medical treatment of addiction involving psychoactive substances.
At one point in history, many in the medical profession believed that alcoholism was caused by a defect in character and thus was a vice resulting from "sinful" behaviors. Further study over time basically debunked this conclusion.
Classifying addiction as a disease has been around long before AA existed or the AMA formally recognized it. But it has only found wide acceptance fairly recently because of increased research into the very complicated nature of the condition.
As I said before, call it whatever works for you. I have found that applying the disease model is easier for people to understand and more effective for addicts/alcoholics recovering long-term.
Much has been learned in the last 15-20 years about the science and medical treatment of addiction involving psychoactive substances.
At one point in history, many in the medical profession believed that alcoholism was caused by a defect in character and thus was a vice resulting from "sinful" behaviors. Further study over time basically debunked this conclusion.
Classifying addiction as a disease has been around long before AA existed or the AMA formally recognized it. But it has only found wide acceptance fairly recently because of increased research into the very complicated nature of the condition.
As I said before, call it whatever works for you. I have found that applying the disease model is easier for people to understand and more effective for addicts/alcoholics recovering long-term.
So there is an alternative, but then practicality that comes into play. There is no practical alternative to AA for the number of meetings. Many smaller or even medium sized towns have nothing except AA.
Some non AA alternatives do not hold meetings at all (RR). The rest just haven't organized to the extent to offer meetings to any great degree. With all the people that make a fuss about AA being religious, you would think there would be tons of these non AA meetings, but there aren't.
as mentioned somewhere "nothing new under the sun"
with this I agree and believe it is just fine to call being a drunkard
just as in the old days -- a sinner
bad behavior = sin for many who believe
MM
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bad
BAD, a.[Heb. to perish or destroy]
1. Ill; evil; opposed to good; a word of general use, denoting physical defects and moral faults, in men and things; as a bad man, a bad heart, a bad design, bad air, bad water, bad books.
2. Vicious; corrupt; depraved, in a moral sense; as a bad life; a bad action.
3. Unwholesome; as bad provisions.
4. Unfortunate; unprosperous; as a bad state of affairs.
5. Unskillful; as a bad player.
6. Small; poor; as a bad crop.
7. Infirm; as a bad state of health.
8. Feeble, corrupt, or oppressive; as a bad government.
9. Hurtful; pernicious; as, fine print is bad for the eyes.
10. Unfavorable; as a bad season.
11. Poor; sterile; as a bad soil.
behavior
BEHA'VIOR, n. behavyur. [See Behave.]
Manner of behaving, whether good or bad; conduct; manners; carriage of one's self, with respect to propriety, or morals; deportment. It expresses external appearance or action; sometimes in a particular character; more generally in the common duties of life; as, our future destiny depends on our behavior in this life. It may express correct or good manners, but I doubt whether it ever expresses the idea of elegance of manners,without another word to qualify it.
To be upon one's behavior, is to be in a state of trial, in which something important depends on propriety of conduct. The modern phrase is, to be or to be put, upon one's good behavior.
Last edited by Dee74; 09-04-2014 at 10:01 PM.
The first time DUI offender where I live has to go to 6 meetings. That's it. I am not sure about multiple offenders.
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