Recovered
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
The Big Book seems to agree with both sides of this discussion. In the tenth step promises "IF tempted we recoil as if from a hot flame." This means some of us may be tempted, some of us may not. It's pretty open.
Then we don't see a defintion of temptation. Is it a passing fancy, or a strong urge?
The words recoil and hot flame tend to imply a certain amount of gravity, more towards a strong desire. Since some point in step nine I have never had a strong urge to drink, but when I see a cooking or lifestyle program, perhaps about a nice meal with a local ale, I might think it would be nice to experience that, but it is no more than a fleeting thought. There are plenty of other things in life I can experience.
Then we don't see a defintion of temptation. Is it a passing fancy, or a strong urge?
The words recoil and hot flame tend to imply a certain amount of gravity, more towards a strong desire. Since some point in step nine I have never had a strong urge to drink, but when I see a cooking or lifestyle program, perhaps about a nice meal with a local ale, I might think it would be nice to experience that, but it is no more than a fleeting thought. There are plenty of other things in life I can experience.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Here, EH!!!
Posts: 1,337
First off, and I will put it in caps -
YOU CAN NOT FOLLOW THE 12 STEPS OUT OF THE 12 X 12.
That is a fact! The 12 x 12 is an extension and should only be read once you have worked all 12 steps in order, even then you should wait to read the 12 x 12.
YOU CAN NOT FOLLOW THE 12 STEPS OUT OF THE 12 X 12.
That is a fact! The 12 x 12 is an extension and should only be read once you have worked all 12 steps in order, even then you should wait to read the 12 x 12.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Thanks Gottalife. I knew that because I do not have any thoughts of alcohol. and some folks do
As far as temptation, my wife still drinks and smokes in front of me. There is a half gallon of scotch and some assorted bottles of good stuff she keeps in the kitchen cabinet that I have to reach over to get the saltines. And she smokes only under the outside venting island kitchen vent hood and not riding in my car which I bought last year and has never been smoked in.
When I got out of rehab, which I quit, just twelve days after entering detox, (the docs told me I would relapse if I did not stay the full 28 days,) my wife of 42 years this Saturday, offered to drink and smoke outside our house. That was something she harped on for years for me to do because my three packs a day really stunk up the old place. But being honest with myself I realized I was done. But more importantly, had she quit smoking and drinking and told me to do it away from her and out of the house I would have told her simply no, I think not. NO way would I have been driven outside or nagged constantly by a reformed smoker or drinker before I quit both, and I'll be danged if I was going to be that intolerant person. I am not recommending this to anyone that is shaky in their recovery. I had docs, AA, here, and friends and family, supporting me. I felt no need to hide my past drinking because everybody knew it, I never hid it. I just could not shake it until it scared me sober with the threat of death by my own decision. (not taking action is a decision too) So to be internally and externally congruent, and not be in cognitive dissonance where my behaviors disagree with my beliefs, I told her if she would concede to smoking only under the vent hood with the vent on we would be fine. So in addition to not feeling tempted because I have already drunk my fill, right now I am home, and my Significant Harassment is still at work then going to the hospital, so I am home alone, with booze and a carton of smokes free for the taking. I have been retired for six years since I retired to focus on drinking full time the last two years I drank. So for four years I have had unsupervised access to all the booze and smokes I could want. But "I don't want unless I find myself wanting," another of my sayings generated from the wisdom having been to the bottom provided and since. As I wrote back then "I have seen my needs and I have met them." I never needed a drink more than I needed my self respect and dignity back. I just needed a head start that the 7 day in hospital detox gave me, that I could not manage alone.
It appears I exceeded some folks capacity to believe with just saying I get no temptations that has all gone with my sobriety. So I wasn't going to mention that but since things have calmed down that is a reality. I do not know how to say it any plainer than that I made up my mind that if I could escape from my addiction for even a day, which I could not manage back then, I would never let myself get enslaved again, ever. I wanted out for the last two years I drank and was desperate, and seeing my death coming sooner than later I was just plain scared.
I'm unique, just like everybody else. I do not recommend anybody that suffers from the temptation to drink by proximity to try and prove you can or can't do it. Some folks struggle for life, and a sober life is worth the struggle. Don't get upset with me just because I never struggled with anything after detox but some gawd-awful PAWS for six months.
One size does not fit all, only those of that one size. There are some that are bigger than my size and some that are the same.
Some people drank because they felt forced to be the same as everyone and felt inadequate to the task. Let's not make the mistake of trying to tell each other how it should be. We need not "should" on each other. I hate it when people "should" all over me too!
I am a retired warrior whose watch was over at 45 when I first retired. I am 62 now and am retired again. The young kids will think that's old until they get here, and find they are still inside. I don't feel any different than when I was 45 and my back was already bad as well as my C5 from the beating 27 years in the military puts on your frame. We were trained to adapt, improvise, and overcome. If we didn't we could die, even in training with deadly weapons. The weird part of getting over 50 is that some old looking guy keeps jumping in front of me every time I try to look in a mirror. (Cue theme from the twilight zone)
Recovery from alcoholism is a process, recovered alcoholic is the goal. Then a well lived life becomes the process and replaces the self destruction of the drinking alcoholic for me.
Regardless of the controversy I think this thread is valuable. We recovering, recovered and wannabe recovering alcoholics just looking in need to treat each other as VIPS. Because if we don't, no one else will.
As far as temptation, my wife still drinks and smokes in front of me. There is a half gallon of scotch and some assorted bottles of good stuff she keeps in the kitchen cabinet that I have to reach over to get the saltines. And she smokes only under the outside venting island kitchen vent hood and not riding in my car which I bought last year and has never been smoked in.
When I got out of rehab, which I quit, just twelve days after entering detox, (the docs told me I would relapse if I did not stay the full 28 days,) my wife of 42 years this Saturday, offered to drink and smoke outside our house. That was something she harped on for years for me to do because my three packs a day really stunk up the old place. But being honest with myself I realized I was done. But more importantly, had she quit smoking and drinking and told me to do it away from her and out of the house I would have told her simply no, I think not. NO way would I have been driven outside or nagged constantly by a reformed smoker or drinker before I quit both, and I'll be danged if I was going to be that intolerant person. I am not recommending this to anyone that is shaky in their recovery. I had docs, AA, here, and friends and family, supporting me. I felt no need to hide my past drinking because everybody knew it, I never hid it. I just could not shake it until it scared me sober with the threat of death by my own decision. (not taking action is a decision too) So to be internally and externally congruent, and not be in cognitive dissonance where my behaviors disagree with my beliefs, I told her if she would concede to smoking only under the vent hood with the vent on we would be fine. So in addition to not feeling tempted because I have already drunk my fill, right now I am home, and my Significant Harassment is still at work then going to the hospital, so I am home alone, with booze and a carton of smokes free for the taking. I have been retired for six years since I retired to focus on drinking full time the last two years I drank. So for four years I have had unsupervised access to all the booze and smokes I could want. But "I don't want unless I find myself wanting," another of my sayings generated from the wisdom having been to the bottom provided and since. As I wrote back then "I have seen my needs and I have met them." I never needed a drink more than I needed my self respect and dignity back. I just needed a head start that the 7 day in hospital detox gave me, that I could not manage alone.
It appears I exceeded some folks capacity to believe with just saying I get no temptations that has all gone with my sobriety. So I wasn't going to mention that but since things have calmed down that is a reality. I do not know how to say it any plainer than that I made up my mind that if I could escape from my addiction for even a day, which I could not manage back then, I would never let myself get enslaved again, ever. I wanted out for the last two years I drank and was desperate, and seeing my death coming sooner than later I was just plain scared.
I'm unique, just like everybody else. I do not recommend anybody that suffers from the temptation to drink by proximity to try and prove you can or can't do it. Some folks struggle for life, and a sober life is worth the struggle. Don't get upset with me just because I never struggled with anything after detox but some gawd-awful PAWS for six months.
One size does not fit all, only those of that one size. There are some that are bigger than my size and some that are the same.
Some people drank because they felt forced to be the same as everyone and felt inadequate to the task. Let's not make the mistake of trying to tell each other how it should be. We need not "should" on each other. I hate it when people "should" all over me too!
I am a retired warrior whose watch was over at 45 when I first retired. I am 62 now and am retired again. The young kids will think that's old until they get here, and find they are still inside. I don't feel any different than when I was 45 and my back was already bad as well as my C5 from the beating 27 years in the military puts on your frame. We were trained to adapt, improvise, and overcome. If we didn't we could die, even in training with deadly weapons. The weird part of getting over 50 is that some old looking guy keeps jumping in front of me every time I try to look in a mirror. (Cue theme from the twilight zone)
Recovery from alcoholism is a process, recovered alcoholic is the goal. Then a well lived life becomes the process and replaces the self destruction of the drinking alcoholic for me.
Regardless of the controversy I think this thread is valuable. We recovering, recovered and wannabe recovering alcoholics just looking in need to treat each other as VIPS. Because if we don't, no one else will.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Matt,
I know that. I had a great AA home group when I first quit and we did two meetings a week one of which was a BB Meeting. I attended both for several months. Helped a lot in early recovery.
I know that. I had a great AA home group when I first quit and we did two meetings a week one of which was a BB Meeting. I attended both for several months. Helped a lot in early recovery.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Itchy - this is more just for all of us to have fun, and perhaps also just to feed my play with logic that I sometimes like to do more than necessary, totally admit it 
But if you truly do not have any thoughts of alcohol, how come you continue logging into SR and especially making these long (very useful and enlightening, btw) posts? Strictly speaking, it requires you to think about drinking, I would believe. Sorry I could not resist
But if you truly do not have any thoughts of alcohol, how come you continue logging into SR and especially making these long (very useful and enlightening, btw) posts? Strictly speaking, it requires you to think about drinking, I would believe. Sorry I could not resist Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
I don't think any of us are deserving of some kind of recognition for what does or doesn't go on in our respective heads. How a person chooses to think is really their own business. Its not surprising to me what your claiming Itchy, its just absurd to me. It doesn't go beyond my capacity to understand your meaning. Since you claim it for yourself, no worries. Still though this is a public thread and it invites comments both yea and nay equally respectable.
On the other hand, if you had claimed that it was in someway a more realistic outcome for all of us, rather than what some others (including me) who claim that such thoughts are inconsequential - then I would have an issue naturally.
There are commonalities in alcoholism and in recovery amongst most of us is safe to say. When we get into experiences of a strictly personal nature, things begin to become more unique respective to each persons life experience.
I think your experience is yours to own, as is mine. Its not about not having capacity or whatever. Its about our experiences bring us to different conclusions. Nothing wrong with that, yeah?
On the other hand, if you had claimed that it was in someway a more realistic outcome for all of us, rather than what some others (including me) who claim that such thoughts are inconsequential - then I would have an issue naturally.
There are commonalities in alcoholism and in recovery amongst most of us is safe to say. When we get into experiences of a strictly personal nature, things begin to become more unique respective to each persons life experience.
I think your experience is yours to own, as is mine. Its not about not having capacity or whatever. Its about our experiences bring us to different conclusions. Nothing wrong with that, yeah?
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Haennie that's easy. I am retired military and all of my mentors told me, when I asked how I could ever repay them for what they did for me, that they were glad that I acknowledged my debt, and they intended to collect?? My first mentor and first military supervisor was a Freemason and a wonderful guy. When he said he intended to collect I thought for a second OMG! Is he going to ask for something? He explained that he is part of a long chain that stretches back to the first people. And that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. He said that he has started many chains, as have those who went before him, and that some have gone unbroken for eons, others lasted only as long as that one link, because they were not strong enough to pass it on. This was in 1975 after I had been in for four years and was an NCO. It was long before the movie "Pay It Forward." His expectations of me were stunning in its implications, and simplicity in itself.
And a curse.
You see. the more I passed it to the next person or group, the more I got out of it myself - from them! That created even more to pay back for their loyalty and team spirit. It infected my family and my two boys, and the more I tried to help others, the more in debt I became, to have to try and do even more. You see all paid it forward, and at that rate I was never going to catch up! I have not caught up yet.
You see Least and Dee RZ and FBL, and all the folks on Whiners, Carlos in the early days, Carol and some who are gone from us now, as well as many others in the undies and overs, and a lot of others here helped me, and again I found myself in debt. The more I passed it forward and tried to help the more I got out of it. It's a vicious circle I tell ya! And unlike my drinking days, this is one rut I don't want to get out of.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
And a curse.
You see. the more I passed it to the next person or group, the more I got out of it myself - from them! That created even more to pay back for their loyalty and team spirit. It infected my family and my two boys, and the more I tried to help others, the more in debt I became, to have to try and do even more. You see all paid it forward, and at that rate I was never going to catch up! I have not caught up yet.
You see Least and Dee RZ and FBL, and all the folks on Whiners, Carlos in the early days, Carol and some who are gone from us now, as well as many others in the undies and overs, and a lot of others here helped me, and again I found myself in debt. The more I passed it forward and tried to help the more I got out of it. It's a vicious circle I tell ya! And unlike my drinking days, this is one rut I don't want to get out of.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,439
I have a great respect for all three of your guys and your recovery Rob, Itch and JD.
I certainly know that my experience at year one was different to my experience at year two, year three and so on...I hope I keep learning more new stuff every year.
I also know that my experience does not involve me never thinking of drinking again, although I accept that is a part of other peoples experience.
I'm never bothered by others drinking or what have you, but there was a period last year when I was in great pain and not sleeping, and the idea of drinking popped into my head one 3am as a possible solution.
I dismissed it instantly and it did not return - it's laughable in the light of day - but it was there.
I'm kinda glad for those moments cos they keep it 'real' for me.
They help me feel grounded and stop me from getting too complacent, which was something I did with some panache as a drinker..
I think the great thing is we're all alcoholics - yet our stories need not necessarily be the same, noone is more right or less wrong than anyone else
That's why I think SR is such a great resource.
D
I certainly know that my experience at year one was different to my experience at year two, year three and so on...I hope I keep learning more new stuff every year.
I also know that my experience does not involve me never thinking of drinking again, although I accept that is a part of other peoples experience.
I'm never bothered by others drinking or what have you, but there was a period last year when I was in great pain and not sleeping, and the idea of drinking popped into my head one 3am as a possible solution.
I dismissed it instantly and it did not return - it's laughable in the light of day - but it was there.
I'm kinda glad for those moments cos they keep it 'real' for me.
They help me feel grounded and stop me from getting too complacent, which was something I did with some panache as a drinker..
I think the great thing is we're all alcoholics - yet our stories need not necessarily be the same, noone is more right or less wrong than anyone else
That's why I think SR is such a great resource.
D
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Well said, D. And the respect is shared and mutual.
For me, at certain times as well, if I look deep enough I'll sooner or later find my alcoholism staring back at me and with that drinking will come to mind as an offer to relieve me of my responsibilities to life. It doesn't take a whole lot to dismiss such thoughts, but yeah, there they are nonetheless.
I'm not dismayed by these experiences. I am an alcoholic after all, and albeit a recovered alcoholic, I'm not in the least concerned for myself as to what happens in my head when I look into the abyss. I'm not surprised the view is entirely surreal. I don't live on the edge anymore, and this is more than enough of a difference for me for the rest of my life.
For me, at certain times as well, if I look deep enough I'll sooner or later find my alcoholism staring back at me and with that drinking will come to mind as an offer to relieve me of my responsibilities to life. It doesn't take a whole lot to dismiss such thoughts, but yeah, there they are nonetheless.
I'm not dismayed by these experiences. I am an alcoholic after all, and albeit a recovered alcoholic, I'm not in the least concerned for myself as to what happens in my head when I look into the abyss. I'm not surprised the view is entirely surreal. I don't live on the edge anymore, and this is more than enough of a difference for me for the rest of my life.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Oops! On edit, yeah Dee that's what we are all about. We knew you had some issues and I am glad that you dismissed it out of hand. You've been with me from day one and know my story better than I do. One day I will hang up my Overs membership when I feel I have nothing much to offer the newcomers. That day has not come yet.
Back the original post that I had to leave up for 20 minutes while I took the pups out for a walk. Dogs can cross their legs and have their eyes water, really!
Oh and haennie, I am retired and fortunate, so I have all the time in the world, while I try to figure out what I want to be when I grow up, until my time runs out much farther in the future than it might have. I am in good health and truly believe that I would have been dead by alcohol at least two years ago had I not had all the help I did. And I am a writer. Songwriter and dreamer. Warrior and doggerel poet. I once played music of my own on the stage and that of others as well. I am inspired by my fellow addicts. I am proud to be one of the recovered and maybe like my watch in the military, my watch is coming to a close here. The day that I feel I have nothing left to offer I will be off on a new adventure.
Back four years and three or four years ago least and a group of the ones that were just ahead of my class of September 2010 asked Dee and the powers that be, if she could start a new club for those over one year. That actually confounded Dee and some of the admins. I remember Dee saying he never had folks hang around very long before. But they consented because we could be the examples and show others that there is life after active alcoholism, recovery long term. So least and Murray and several others along with RZ and FBL and one we lost back to drink they formed the first members of the over one year club. And we still are going strong today. Some of the ladies call it the Overries for short, I call it the Overs for short. But like a bad penny we just keep showing up present, sober, and accounted for.
Back the original post that I had to leave up for 20 minutes while I took the pups out for a walk. Dogs can cross their legs and have their eyes water, really!
Oh and haennie, I am retired and fortunate, so I have all the time in the world, while I try to figure out what I want to be when I grow up, until my time runs out much farther in the future than it might have. I am in good health and truly believe that I would have been dead by alcohol at least two years ago had I not had all the help I did. And I am a writer. Songwriter and dreamer. Warrior and doggerel poet. I once played music of my own on the stage and that of others as well. I am inspired by my fellow addicts. I am proud to be one of the recovered and maybe like my watch in the military, my watch is coming to a close here. The day that I feel I have nothing left to offer I will be off on a new adventure.
Back four years and three or four years ago least and a group of the ones that were just ahead of my class of September 2010 asked Dee and the powers that be, if she could start a new club for those over one year. That actually confounded Dee and some of the admins. I remember Dee saying he never had folks hang around very long before. But they consented because we could be the examples and show others that there is life after active alcoholism, recovery long term. So least and Murray and several others along with RZ and FBL and one we lost back to drink they formed the first members of the over one year club. And we still are going strong today. Some of the ladies call it the Overries for short, I call it the Overs for short. But like a bad penny we just keep showing up present, sober, and accounted for.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
I like that post Robby. I don't discredit any of it. For me, I did a permanent change of station as we called it in the military when we moved, rarely getting our base of choice. In this case I did and my permanent location is Sobriety Air Station. I am not even close to the abyss we both fell into. The idea of one day even thinking I wanted a drink is as foreign to me since I quit, as mine is for you. But the foreign is not necessarily the enemy. But another adventure. I hear Dee in my accent, he likely hears us when he reads here in his. But we all have the common ground of having been uncommonly common for part of our existence, and survived so far.
I did not get PTSD from the military , but my drinking days gave it to me. Post Traumatic Sobriety Determination.
I did not get PTSD from the military , but my drinking days gave it to me. Post Traumatic Sobriety Determination.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Right back at you Dee. Robby already knows how much respect I have for him. Some of my closet relationships on his site were born in controversy, so I hope that happens with Itchy. I respect his time and journey and willingness to share.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Fundamentals
The illuminating aspect of all the Int'l Biz Travel I did was to 'parachute' into other Cultures, and have to be effective in scenarios of fundamentally-different assumptions. Fix weird problems, and keep a major Customer. Study up and master little things, like not crossing my Legs to show the Soles of my Feet. In that they touch they Ground, that pose is considered disrespectful in some Asian Countries. Don't question it. Master it.
A non-Biz scenario was with a good Japanese Tech Pal. In a vigorous and respectful discussion fueled by Corp-funded Sake, of course, he pointed out a POV on Japanese Whaling. It's a part of their Culture. It connects them to their view of Nature. Reportedly, Whale is tasty. But, he likened it to American Cattle Feedlots in, say, Kansas City. At the end of the evening, there was no argument to be had. The Ocean is their Feedlot, and Whales are their Cattle. They have little Land. They have plenty of Ocean. 'Greenpeace' types would find this POV abhorrent, but he defended it vigorously and comprehensively. I 'got it'. I remember that discussion several Decades on...
And, so it is [to me] on the matter of Recovery Methods, and the fit of an Individual within a given Method. RR works for me. I 'kinda' found it on my own, prior to joining SR. It grew on me from there. Works for me.
My point, though, is that I find it an interesting and continuous challenge to view Method 'Dogma' [or not] and personal adherence to a Method [or not] as the crux of the discussion here, and elsewhere. Can one really transcend their Frame of Reference, and rethink the very fundamentals.
Early on here, I'd get queried on matters of suppressing Ego, or about a certain Step. It took me some time to grasp the key issue. It's Human Nature to glom onto that which has worked for a Person. Fair enough. However, can one truly step outside that reference on the most fundamental levels to grasp completely different assumptions?
I have infrequent thoughts of Alcohol. I compartmentalize them in with thoughts of Marital Infidelity, or robbing my Parents of Money as they mentally deteriorated. All those actions are unthinkable, right to my Moral and Behavioral Core. Think about such things, especially in a College Town in the Summer where 'limited Clothing' is rampant? Ya sure, you betcha. Act on such things? Not a chance. It's possible to not be a Letch as surely as it's possible to be a Recovered Alcoholic who never again drinks.
The Model of almost slipping daily, or waking up to yet another day of reprieve and not Drinking, is simply not my Model. Nor is 'almost' hitting on some unsuspecting Woman/Girl. That's why they term such things 'unthinkable'.
Acting on thoughts of Alcohol by drinking it is a behavior that, like my other examples, has been permanently retired. Forever. For a short while, I mistook 'potential complacency' about Alcohol with pure Conviction. For me, pure Conviction to forever remain Sober works flawlessly. Now, I focus on simply doing other, rewarding, Sober things and reflect back on Alcohol use like some Trip I took long ago.
Both are in the past; never to be reenacted.
Things can be made simple if one chooses that path.
A non-Biz scenario was with a good Japanese Tech Pal. In a vigorous and respectful discussion fueled by Corp-funded Sake, of course, he pointed out a POV on Japanese Whaling. It's a part of their Culture. It connects them to their view of Nature. Reportedly, Whale is tasty. But, he likened it to American Cattle Feedlots in, say, Kansas City. At the end of the evening, there was no argument to be had. The Ocean is their Feedlot, and Whales are their Cattle. They have little Land. They have plenty of Ocean. 'Greenpeace' types would find this POV abhorrent, but he defended it vigorously and comprehensively. I 'got it'. I remember that discussion several Decades on...
And, so it is [to me] on the matter of Recovery Methods, and the fit of an Individual within a given Method. RR works for me. I 'kinda' found it on my own, prior to joining SR. It grew on me from there. Works for me.
My point, though, is that I find it an interesting and continuous challenge to view Method 'Dogma' [or not] and personal adherence to a Method [or not] as the crux of the discussion here, and elsewhere. Can one really transcend their Frame of Reference, and rethink the very fundamentals.
Early on here, I'd get queried on matters of suppressing Ego, or about a certain Step. It took me some time to grasp the key issue. It's Human Nature to glom onto that which has worked for a Person. Fair enough. However, can one truly step outside that reference on the most fundamental levels to grasp completely different assumptions?
I have infrequent thoughts of Alcohol. I compartmentalize them in with thoughts of Marital Infidelity, or robbing my Parents of Money as they mentally deteriorated. All those actions are unthinkable, right to my Moral and Behavioral Core. Think about such things, especially in a College Town in the Summer where 'limited Clothing' is rampant? Ya sure, you betcha. Act on such things? Not a chance. It's possible to not be a Letch as surely as it's possible to be a Recovered Alcoholic who never again drinks.
The Model of almost slipping daily, or waking up to yet another day of reprieve and not Drinking, is simply not my Model. Nor is 'almost' hitting on some unsuspecting Woman/Girl. That's why they term such things 'unthinkable'.
Acting on thoughts of Alcohol by drinking it is a behavior that, like my other examples, has been permanently retired. Forever. For a short while, I mistook 'potential complacency' about Alcohol with pure Conviction. For me, pure Conviction to forever remain Sober works flawlessly. Now, I focus on simply doing other, rewarding, Sober things and reflect back on Alcohol use like some Trip I took long ago.
Both are in the past; never to be reenacted.
Things can be made simple if one chooses that path.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Mesa,
We lived in Europe 7 years and all over the US, and two years in Colombia. There I had to go to Kindergarten and first grade in Spanish, a language I never spoke. It gives a perspective that some folks who never traveled outside their county in the US, let alone to another country, can never understand and it does no good trying to explain it. We never lived in Asia or the Australian region, and wish we had. My folks and my wife's were career military/civil service, and I had a 27 year career with a five year break in service for additional college which was where I was a counselor. I was a medic and scrub tech for five years, a medical lab technologist, then spent 20 years teaching weapons, and academics at some assignments. All that helped a bunch in my recovery being cut and dry except for my physiological PAWS.
I think I compartmentalized mine very much as you describe. But for me it had a lot to do with basic cognitive dissonance. When we are in distress because our beliefs aren't congruent with our behaviors we only have two choices, change the belief, or change the behavior. If I believe alcohol is killing me I can stop drinking or change my belief to it not harming me. Until resolved distress builds.
I liked drinking when it was voluntary, not so much when it became mandatory. That was when my beliefs and behaviors contradicted each other creating distress. I resolved it by changing the behavior. I counseled and was trained in RET, Albert Ellis' 12 irrational beliefs and ABC charts long before they were called REBT or even later an amalgamation called CBT. Rational emotive behavior therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I used some reality therapy as well for an eclectic but effective well health clinic. But we were not equipped at a University Counseling center for long term therapy and never took on alcohol or narcotic addiction remediation. We were mostly crisis intervention and goal oriented counseling like marital and assertiveness training.
I read enough of RR to see that I'd been there done that minus the vitriol towards other groups. But it works for many and is very similar to RET. We did not have voices in place of the rational or irrational beliefs in the b position of the ABC charts. Just had to get folks on board that stimulus "a" does not cause reaction/emotion/behavior "c." We filter it through "b" first, which can be a rational or irrational belief about the stimulus, and depending on that, the reaction or behavior changes. Rational emotive behavior therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Worked very well once I figured how to get sober long enough to be able to implement the change in my "c" filters of irrational behaviors with rational.
I think what a lot of folks find difficult to understand is that long before I quit, I detested drinking, even the taste began to be nauseating. Once detoxed I hit the ground running to get support, medical help to check my ongoing status after medically detoxing. I shot gunned it and used everything I could find: some SMART from here: SMART RecoveryŽ - Tool Chest and Homework
Some AA, lots of reading and posting here on SR, some local counseling, and lots of reading and support from my best friends who didn't drink. My drinking buddies were just a group of guys that met at the corner auto parts to drink beer every night with the owner at the corner of my street. No DUIs!
I didn't have an AV, I just had me screaming at "b" inside me to stop. But weak old me just caved every day in my behaviors "c.". Until I didn't.
Ahh the bad old days, don't miss 'em, never going back.
We lived in Europe 7 years and all over the US, and two years in Colombia. There I had to go to Kindergarten and first grade in Spanish, a language I never spoke. It gives a perspective that some folks who never traveled outside their county in the US, let alone to another country, can never understand and it does no good trying to explain it. We never lived in Asia or the Australian region, and wish we had. My folks and my wife's were career military/civil service, and I had a 27 year career with a five year break in service for additional college which was where I was a counselor. I was a medic and scrub tech for five years, a medical lab technologist, then spent 20 years teaching weapons, and academics at some assignments. All that helped a bunch in my recovery being cut and dry except for my physiological PAWS.
I think I compartmentalized mine very much as you describe. But for me it had a lot to do with basic cognitive dissonance. When we are in distress because our beliefs aren't congruent with our behaviors we only have two choices, change the belief, or change the behavior. If I believe alcohol is killing me I can stop drinking or change my belief to it not harming me. Until resolved distress builds.
I liked drinking when it was voluntary, not so much when it became mandatory. That was when my beliefs and behaviors contradicted each other creating distress. I resolved it by changing the behavior. I counseled and was trained in RET, Albert Ellis' 12 irrational beliefs and ABC charts long before they were called REBT or even later an amalgamation called CBT. Rational emotive behavior therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I used some reality therapy as well for an eclectic but effective well health clinic. But we were not equipped at a University Counseling center for long term therapy and never took on alcohol or narcotic addiction remediation. We were mostly crisis intervention and goal oriented counseling like marital and assertiveness training.
I read enough of RR to see that I'd been there done that minus the vitriol towards other groups. But it works for many and is very similar to RET. We did not have voices in place of the rational or irrational beliefs in the b position of the ABC charts. Just had to get folks on board that stimulus "a" does not cause reaction/emotion/behavior "c." We filter it through "b" first, which can be a rational or irrational belief about the stimulus, and depending on that, the reaction or behavior changes. Rational emotive behavior therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Worked very well once I figured how to get sober long enough to be able to implement the change in my "c" filters of irrational behaviors with rational.
I think what a lot of folks find difficult to understand is that long before I quit, I detested drinking, even the taste began to be nauseating. Once detoxed I hit the ground running to get support, medical help to check my ongoing status after medically detoxing. I shot gunned it and used everything I could find: some SMART from here: SMART RecoveryŽ - Tool Chest and Homework
Some AA, lots of reading and posting here on SR, some local counseling, and lots of reading and support from my best friends who didn't drink. My drinking buddies were just a group of guys that met at the corner auto parts to drink beer every night with the owner at the corner of my street. No DUIs!
I didn't have an AV, I just had me screaming at "b" inside me to stop. But weak old me just caved every day in my behaviors "c.". Until I didn't.
Ahh the bad old days, don't miss 'em, never going back.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Mesa - I have a lot of business in Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan. No surprise I had to learn the nuances of these cultures. Never use hand gestures, how to refill sake for the elder at the table. Most Americans or Westerners in general come into these meetings like a bull in a china shop and no surprise they tend to offend and push away important manufacturing partners.
I like your perspective and having read and studied RR a bit through Freshstart's suggestion last year I can appreciate the foreverness of the BigPlan and decision to cut alcohol out of your life like a wart. For me I needed to deal with a bit more than alcohol in my case and found what works best is AA's 12 steps mixed with some of RR's techniques. Again it works for me and I pass along what has worked as my solution to others as part of AA's 12th step.
I respect and appreciate what works for others. Your analogy is perhaps more succinctly articulated than what I was trying to describe but the message is the same none the less. Just like the beautiful young woman in little clothing may inspire a thought, we as married men don't act on that thought. My point with alcohol is for me if I have a meeting in a bar or a hotel restaurant I am not afraid of alcohol. Sometimes I will have a thought. I accept the thought but just like that girl I don't act on that thought. I am not afraid of that though just like I am not afraid of alcohol - it won't jump off the shelf and into my mouth. I always found the AA euphemism about alcoholism doing pushups in the parking lot a funny metaphor when people take it literally - there are not pushups just like there is no beast in AVRT - its all me so I better get used to accepting this.
Instead, I try to observe what might be occurring in my life that causes me to have that thought - perhaps its nothing and me just being in that restaurant noticing a drunk person and laughing at how that used to be me or laughing at how my mind might remember only the good parts of a memory. Freshstart noted once about how alcohol is like that girlfriend who cheated all over town on you...I like this bc in this same mindset you don't block the good memories out of this relationship but you damn well better remember the bad ones too.
I can't help that sometimes I will have thoughts. They are not often but factually they occur. I am not so frightened that I need to pretend they don't happen. Instead I am honest with others that yes, sometimes I will have them and observe what is occurring in my life at the time but I don't entertain them just like I would not entertain that girlfriend that made of fool of me and wanted to come back for a night.
Despite what I admit to above, I consider myself recovered. I don't obsess over a drink or drug. I have a program and work it and work with others. I like sharing and debating on SR and I find all of this fascinating. As an aside I am mapping my genome at the moment and I am learning much about myself and why I am the way I am. Genetically alcohol, cocaine, Ritalin, Aderall created a perfect storm for me based on my MTHFR, COMT, and CYP2C19 genes that suggest low dopamine, seretonin levels and actually suggest my mind will do better with cognitive behavioral therapy.
I like your perspective and having read and studied RR a bit through Freshstart's suggestion last year I can appreciate the foreverness of the BigPlan and decision to cut alcohol out of your life like a wart. For me I needed to deal with a bit more than alcohol in my case and found what works best is AA's 12 steps mixed with some of RR's techniques. Again it works for me and I pass along what has worked as my solution to others as part of AA's 12th step.
I respect and appreciate what works for others. Your analogy is perhaps more succinctly articulated than what I was trying to describe but the message is the same none the less. Just like the beautiful young woman in little clothing may inspire a thought, we as married men don't act on that thought. My point with alcohol is for me if I have a meeting in a bar or a hotel restaurant I am not afraid of alcohol. Sometimes I will have a thought. I accept the thought but just like that girl I don't act on that thought. I am not afraid of that though just like I am not afraid of alcohol - it won't jump off the shelf and into my mouth. I always found the AA euphemism about alcoholism doing pushups in the parking lot a funny metaphor when people take it literally - there are not pushups just like there is no beast in AVRT - its all me so I better get used to accepting this.
Instead, I try to observe what might be occurring in my life that causes me to have that thought - perhaps its nothing and me just being in that restaurant noticing a drunk person and laughing at how that used to be me or laughing at how my mind might remember only the good parts of a memory. Freshstart noted once about how alcohol is like that girlfriend who cheated all over town on you...I like this bc in this same mindset you don't block the good memories out of this relationship but you damn well better remember the bad ones too.
I can't help that sometimes I will have thoughts. They are not often but factually they occur. I am not so frightened that I need to pretend they don't happen. Instead I am honest with others that yes, sometimes I will have them and observe what is occurring in my life at the time but I don't entertain them just like I would not entertain that girlfriend that made of fool of me and wanted to come back for a night.
Despite what I admit to above, I consider myself recovered. I don't obsess over a drink or drug. I have a program and work it and work with others. I like sharing and debating on SR and I find all of this fascinating. As an aside I am mapping my genome at the moment and I am learning much about myself and why I am the way I am. Genetically alcohol, cocaine, Ritalin, Aderall created a perfect storm for me based on my MTHFR, COMT, and CYP2C19 genes that suggest low dopamine, seretonin levels and actually suggest my mind will do better with cognitive behavioral therapy.
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 729
Originally Posted by soberwolf 
Was just wondering if anybody considers themselves recovered since I have heard it a few times now and its got me thinking
What exactly do you mean ?
What exactly do you mean ?
Do you call that recovered?
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