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disappointment with other addicts

Old 08-27-2014, 08:17 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
zjw
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Katie, part of my recovery has been coming to terms that it is arrogant for me to think that Iknow what is right for someone else, and that includes my spouse, my parents, and my children. I work with God every day on living the life that is right for me and I hope that I can live as a good example. I have lots of love and compassion for others and good knowledge and a good understanding that God/Love/Life supports and loves and IS them every bit as it is me.
yeah thats part of my problem these days is accepting people for the way that they are. I told my one friend recently I hate everyone why? becasue no ones perfect and i immediatly zoom in on there flaw and decide screw them there not good enough for me. Yet I remain tolerant of others so he immediatly responded hey thats great He said he must be perfect then since i put up with him lol. strange how it works i guess.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:23 AM
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dox, yeah, they gave me phone numbers. But in four months of daily meetings, only one person asked for my number.

One.

If I had been able or even knew how to make friends, I probably wouldn't have been drinking by myself in my apartment in the first place, right?

Expecting the newcomer to be able and willing to reach out is a very tall order. My mind was so fried I couldn't put two thoughts together, and I had no one in my life who I could call - for any reason - not just as related to drinking. Me reaching out to some AAer was not going to happen.

Luckily that one person did call me and I called her. But it wasn't enough to keep me in the rooms or in the "program." She didn't stay in, either. We both started at the same time, so it wasn't like some old-timer who had worked the program was willing to help me, it was two newcomers talking to each other. Luckily that was enough to get me through to when I decided to quit AA.

If people in AA expect a newcomer to do all the work, all the reaching out, then expect a lot of attrition. Oh, yeah, that's what happens.

Exactly.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDragons View Post
Katie, part of my recovery has been coming to terms that it is arrogant for me to think that I know what is right for someone else on their life's journey, and that includes my spouse, my parents, and my children. I work with God every day on living the life that is right for me and I hope that I can live as a good example. I have lots of love and compassion for others and good knowledge and a good understanding that God/Love/Life supports and loves and IS them every bit as it is me.
Exactly this !!
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
I think it's sad that people in the program do not reach out to newcomers because they themselves do not want to get "hurt" when/if a newcomer slips.

It is said in meetings that the newcomer is the most important person in the room, but it sure doesn't feel that way as a newcomer. No one reaches out, no one asks for your phone number, no one acts like they actually care. The mindset in AA is the newcomer has to do all the reaching out. That's damn near impossible for someone coming off alcohol who has disabled themselves through isolation.

Now I read here that all those people who acted like I didn't exist were so fragile in their own recovery that they couldn't/wouldn't take the chance of being friendly to someone because there is a chance that new person might relapse? WOW. That's enlightening. Ego preventing the 12th Step. Apparently it isn't really all that important to help the suffering.

Good to know. I'll be fine without AA. I don't think that is a good tactic to help the newly sober. I feel they need kindness and understanding and friendship.
I've found in my experiences in AA that I get out of it what I put into it. In the past I have been the newcomer who felt like what you have described above -- and this time I was the newcomer who was helped and welcomed when I got there. The only difference was my attitude going in.

Granted I already knew what didn't work when I came back to AA this time. Getting to the meeting right when it started didn't work. Sitting in the back of the room and never sharing didn't work. Leaving right after the meeting didn't work. Having people give me their number and then me not calling didn't work. Not asking for help didn't work.

I never realized that I was sending out the type of energy towards others that turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy. I finally realized that in order to receive help I had to ask for it. It's not that people didn't want to help me -- they were actually respecting me by not forcing themselves on me until I asked for it.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
I think it's sad that people in the program do not reach out to newcomers because they themselves do not want to get "hurt" when/if a newcomer slips.

It is said in meetings that the newcomer is the most important person in the room, but it sure doesn't feel that way as a newcomer. No one reaches out, no one asks for your phone number, no one acts like they actually care. The mindset in AA is the newcomer has to do all the reaching out. That's damn near impossible for someone coming off alcohol who has disabled themselves through isolation. Then multiple people talk to them after the meetings

Now I read here that all those people who acted like I didn't exist were so fragile in their own recovery that they couldn't/wouldn't take the chance of being friendly to someone because there is a chance that new person might relapse? WOW. That's enlightening. Ego preventing the 12th Step. Apparently it isn't really all that important to help the suffering.

Good to know. I'll be fine without AA. I don't think that is a good tactic to help the newly sober. I feel they need kindness and understanding and friendship.
I have been to a 1000+ meetings and have never seen one like you describe. Sorry for your experience but it is not representative of the meetings I attend. Every new commer is given a big book, a new commer packet, and lots of member phone numbers plus numerous people talking to them after the meeting
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:27 AM
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I got sober in my teens and saw far to many people go back out. My sponsor told me drinking over it won't bring them back in. There is only one person that I can get sober, that me. Twelve step programs work only by working The 12 Steps.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:29 PM
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It's the nature of addiction unfortunately, which is why our Sobriety needs to not be rooted in someone else, we need to do it for us, for our lives!!

In the same way loosing jobs, relationship breakdowns, death of family members, all the things that we could cling onto in life for security, if they disappear our Sobriety also needs to be have strong foundations!!
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
dox, yeah, they gave me phone numbers. But in four months of daily meetings, only one person asked for my number.

One.

If I had been able or even knew how to make friends, I probably wouldn't have been drinking by myself in my apartment in the first place, right?

Expecting the newcomer to be able and willing to reach out is a very tall order. My mind was so fried I couldn't put two thoughts together, and I had no one in my life who I could call - for any reason - not just as related to drinking. Me reaching out to some AAer was not going to happen.

Luckily that one person did call me and I called her. But it wasn't enough to keep me in the rooms or in the "program." She didn't stay in, either. We both started at the same time, so it wasn't like some old-timer who had worked the program was willing to help me, it was two newcomers talking to each other. Luckily that was enough to get me through to when I decided to quit AA.

If people in AA expect a newcomer to do all the work, all the reaching out, then expect a lot of attrition. Oh, yeah, that's what happens.

Exactly.
Listen up you comfortable AAs sitting in your nice meeting room waiting for the newcomer to come to you, call you, make all the running. Pick up your Big book and try and find where it says that is what AA is all about.

The lifesaving fact for me was I received the exact opposite treatment in the early meetings I went to. It was a member that called me, after my last bender, that got me back into the program. It was a member who took me to my first meeting, having given up an full afternoon to 12 step me. These folks saved my life. I never would have got there on my own. People rang me and showed they cared.

Thank you Bimini for sharing your experience. I am not going to deny it, I see it all the time.

There is hope however. Some of us have woken up and are trying to remedy the issues you raise, in our own small way. Having once been one of those comfortable AAs, I can tell you that when you change and start following the suggestions in the book, you will make a lot of people uncomfortable and you can expect a lot of flak. You might be called a nazi, a thumper, or a zealot, heck, I even get called religious, lbl.

You see, helping others is inconvenient and sometimes unpleasant. As one prosperous 10 year man told me the other day, since he got sober he hasn't got time to help anyone else, he's far too busy.

Bimini, I hope your posts makes a few AAs think.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:40 PM
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I can understand where you're coming from -- early on I experienced the disappointment and concern for someone who disappeared when they went back to drinking after 3 months of sobriety. I learned from that and now keep my expectations in better check. I do think success is possible for everyone, however the only success I actually need to worry about is mine.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie88 View Post
After a short while of sobriety and AA I am feeling disappointed. I've met some great people in AA and have really taken joy in hearing their stories about their own recovery...and then they relapse. It seems hopeless sometimes and I am beginning to think maybe AA and online recovery groups my be discouraging for someone who is trying to quit drinking. What if someone a young person gets attached to (in early recovery) disappears and goes back to their old ways? I know that a huge part of recovery is establishing relationships with peers and mentors who have been through the same struggle, but what is there to do when those people suddenly disappear on you because they went back to drinking? I am a sensitive, compassionate person and i am finding this aspect of the recovery community difficult. Any thoughts or experiences are welcome Thank you!
Its sad to say that the recovery these days is very low. How low, at best some say 5%. Why? Because the message in AA is very diluted aka watered down. People share abut their day, about their family, work, traffic is a classic one. When the message is focused on the solution to alcoholsm and recovery, based out of our common text book and we lose the manure thats spread in the rooms of AA, then the odds get dramatically better. There is a 75% recovery rate for AA, if you follow it out of the book. Once we start switching things up, changing things around, doing any step that begins in 1, taking our time, doing a step a year, faking it until we make it then we revert back to a dismal 3-5% recovery rate. Its sad, but its a reality. That is precisely why I do not attend certain meetings at all, I go to meetings where I know for a fact there will be solid AA members there, with a solid AA message, and there are always newcomers there, always. The message at those meetings is focused, sure I will attend the odd random one, beginners meetings primarily, gotta spread the message.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie88 View Post

I am a sensitive, compassionate person and i am finding this aspect of the recovery community difficult.
seeing some return to the liquid devil breaks our hearts

by the grace of God there go I

MM
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:23 PM
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Not directed to the OP at all but just a thought for some responders:

Not everyone who stops going to meetings is a relapse. I see the odd AA person, they always have a look of pity in there eyes like I'm drinking again... I'm not.
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:49 PM
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Hi Katie,
I'll sidestep the AA discussion, and get back to the topic of relapsing.

I was a chronic relapser and I am keenly aware of the anger, the hopelessness and the disappointment my behavior caused for others in AA.
But, I believe that relapsing, for many, is how they recover. It's how they learn.

I know, this is heresy to some AA'ers, but it is my opinion. I have two sons. The first spent long hours studying others and planning his first step. He took his first step and never stumbled or fell. I was flabbergasted.
My second son never studied anyone but started trying to walk by trial and error and there were countless trips and falls.
They had a completely different approach to learning.

I have concluded that in my recovery, I was like my second son. I stumbled and fell many times in the attempt to walk.

I am in AA and extremely supportive of relapsers and tell them to just get up again, brush off the dust and get back to it. I tell them that if this expert of relapsing could do it, so can they!
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Old 08-28-2014, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zjw View Post
yeah thats what its been like for me in AA. I'm not unhappy about it however. I mean twice people have said hey welcome thanks for coming but that was about as far as it went. I basicly get ignored otherwise and when I tried reaching out to a few inspiring individuals I was promptly brushed off. it was like they had there own little click and I was not part of it.

Its ok tho I still enjoy going speaking and listening to others. But I have yet to have anyone explain to me the whole sponser thing or steps etc.. I've had to go fish for that sort of information. I would not even know who to ask for a sponser or if i even need one at 3 years sobriety etc... seems a bit late in the game for me to ask.

But again I'm not really unhappy about it or nothing but my expierience has been similier to yours in those regards. I still go I still get something out of it etc..
I'll tell you about my thoughts & experiences in AA.

First time I "identified" in AA, straight away, I felt a huge relief that I wasn't the ONLY one. I got the bog standard advice along the lines of "Keep coming back" & "get to LOTS of meetings & just don't drink no matter what"

OK cool I thought ... I'll do that. And I did LOTS of meetings & didn't drink.

After a while I started to think ... One day, once I've been sober long enough, one of these "older sober members" is going to say something like "Congratulations, you've shown you can stay sober & you really don't want to drink ... so here is how this deal really works and one of us is going to sponsor you & you get to be taken through the steps"

I thought there was some kind of "Fight Club" rule in place, you know ... "First rule of taking the 12 steps of AA is ... you don't talk about doing the 12 steps of AA"

One night this guy visited my home group from out of town and he talked about taking the steps ... I was memorized, but at the same time I though "Jeez, didn't anyone tell this guy the rules"

None the less, for the very first time in around 365 days of "Just going to meetings & just not drinking" I saw & heard a guy in AA who actually had something I wanted. A serenity, a presence, an aura ... call it what you like.

I was outside smoking after the meeting & he walked up to me, we talked for a bit & then he asked something like, how you going with the steps.

I told him my fight club theory & then said something like, "well I'm sure they've all done the steps, some of them haven't had a drink for decades"

He said "They don't talk about them because they've never taken them"

My world & mind literally shattered.

I've run out of time, but there is a part two.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:03 AM
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Part two

This guy asked if I had a Big Book, I did, I'd had one from 1 week sober, which my wife got for me after being advised by someone at AA central office .... but I'd never bothered to open it or read it because I was too lazy but I had also received advice lots of times along the lines of "don't worry about the book, just get to LOTS of meetings & just don't drink"

That night I read the book ... my world & mind shattered for a 2nd time ... why didn't anyone tell me about this ? Why do people advise NOT reading the book ?
I had lots of thoughts & questions flying through my head.

I read aloud the 3rd step prayer on page 63 and wham, I got a spiritual experience. A feeling of calm, serenity, ectasy .... the most wonderful experience I have ever had ... period. 100 x any drug or drink I had ever taken. It was just beautiful.

So, I turned up at my next home group meeting a week later & shared from the floor about the book & what had happened. The next speaker called was an "old timer" who without mentioning me by name or making eye contact, basically rubbished everything I had just said. Of course all the other people in the group looked up to this guy, cause he hadn't had a drink for a good long time. I felt pretty alone that night.

I was a tiger for punishment though & I later asked that old timer to help me with a 4th step etc. He told me it didn't matter, basically he just trotted out the "just go to meetings, just don't drink" and that was the end of that.

I had suspected the guy who told me "they don't talk about the steps cause they've never taken them" was right ... I now had it 100% confirmed.

So I went to a "Spiritual Concept" meeting, surely I could talk about the book & my spiritual experience here ... right ?

Apparently not, two guys left the room when I was asked to share & did talk about it, then after the meeting ... shunned by all. Except for one young girl who said something nice to me like "good to hear someone actually talk about spiritual stuff at the "Spiritual Concept" meeting.

So I just shut up about what happened & went back & rejoined the herd mentality. I just trotted out my war story each time I was asked to share from then on ... but I kept reading the book.

I became a closet BB guy

A year later, my spiritual experience had completely worn off, as I hadn't taken the necessary action & followed up with an immediate 4th step, and I wasn't travelling too well.

But I had had a taste of what Bill Wilson called the "Fourth Dimension of existence" and I wanted to get back there.

So I sought out a guy who had talked about the steps and went through them.

Problem was, after a large gap between step 3 & 4, I had gotten too sick again, to do an honest 4 step list, I hung onto a "few of the worst items in stock" as it says in the book.

Which meant my 8th step list was incomplete, which meant the most desperately needed amends were not made.

Not long after that, I decided I wasn't convinced about the 1st step.

So I downgraded my car by putting the decent one in a ditch (hard to drive when your asleep) separated from my wife, had a fling with some poor woman, lost a job, lost another job ... all the fun stuff.

So, finally threw in the towel again.

This time, got a big book thumping home group, got a big book thumping sponsor, 3rd step prayer last Tuesday night & writing up the fourth.

This time all the mucks coming out.

Woohoo
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:24 AM
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I might be cynical and jaded because I know that others will disappoint me if I have expectations. My sobriety is entirely my responsibility, so I cant afford to get my hopes dashed by another human.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:53 AM
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I was pretty lonely when I was getting sober. No license, no public transportation, divorced, no girlfriend....... bla bla bla. Meetings were about the only social event I had other than work, and I worked with all guys. It's natural for someone like me or most anyone who's new to the rooms of AA to want to look to AA meetings as some sort of social event. And while they CAN be a social event to a degree, it's important for me to remember what the heck I'm there for.

Recovery involves a LOT of change, no question. New habits, dropping of old habits, new ways of thinking and of looking at the world and it's people, and those are just to start out. It was like being a baby all over again for me. It was like re-learning how to just live.......exist.

Even though I was in my late 30's, I started to fall into the same "AA is a social club" trap that so many younger AA's do. I was going mostly (if I was honest with myself) to make friends, get phone numbers and maybe even get laid if I was lucky. So much for new attitudes, new behaviors and all that other stuff huh? Not me, I was doing the same thing in AA that I'd been doing most of my life. I suppose I was lucky that I didn't go back out like so many of my peers did.

Eventually I had to decide, just like everyone else who had recovered from their illness, that my sobriety had to come first. It had to come ahead of making friends, getting numbers and even getting laid. It meant there were nights I couldn't go hang with friends because I had to work on my inventory....or read another chapter.....or go to some stupid meeting that I didn't think would help me. It meant going to those meetings with the job of being a greeter (not something I wanted to do) or with the duty of staying late and trying to find someone who could use some encouragement. It basically meant that I had to drop my selfish motives for friendship and/or love.....and go there with a more recovery-centered objective.

Sure, it's sad when people go back out. Very sad.

Before getting involved in recovery I'd spent the majority of my life trying to "fit in" and be one of the cool kids, part of the crowd. Keeping that as my motivation in recovery was getting similar results - crappy ones. It was also quite apparent that the other ppl who were doing the same thing, they tended to go back out. Like Jennie said above me - my sobriety and my recovery is my responsibility. When that's my priority I'm in good shape. When the social aspect is my priority, my recovery is going to suffer.
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