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Old 08-08-2014, 10:02 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Patriciae View Post
If you don't mind me asking, what article is that Gracie?
Not at all..

"Who is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous?"
By Bill W AA Grapevine August 1946
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:53 AM
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I guess I should have included the link in case others want to read it.

Who Is a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous?
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:11 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
I guess I should have included the link in case others want to read it.

Who Is a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous?
good post and link

if anyone cares to read what aa is about and why is has no rules and why no one should ever try to control meetings then have a read of it

however as we see
meetings turning into god only types of places and other judging others by how they do a program clearly shows that even back then they have the same problems as we do today
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:38 AM
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Excellent & well put! Couple of guys & I were havin mtg after the mtg yest evening and were talkin bout this same thing. One of em reiterated what have heard before & that is going back out doesnt just happen in one day but series of events leading up to that day eg not working on steps, not goin to mtgs etc & unfortunately for the person who was talking about did ended up dead! How truly sad(plus was long term in sobriety). Friend who dropped me home actually shared earlier that he's yet to get bored in aa hence keeps coming back & does whats necessary to stay sober! That's exactly my mindset. I got bored w/ life in general but recovery is soooo much fun so I'm always puzzled @ folks who say they do. His birthday is next wk on 13th & mine's on 27th so we are "twins" turning 2 yrs old!!
Awesome
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
I agree. The AA "program" is not "just" going to meetings. Attending the meetings makes you a member of AA. Being a member does not mean you have to work the program as laid out in the BB or even own a BB or have a sponsor or work it one day at a time...

A member simply means you attend AA. There are AA members that just attend meetings and then there are AA members that work the program. Both can and do stay sober...

The primary purpose is to "stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety".
Although I agree with a lot of what you say, I do have a couple of nits (nit nit nit).........

Re: "...The AA "program" is not "just" going to meetings...." In point of fact, meetings are NOT any part of the Program of AA (it's written out/defined on pgs 59-60 of the BB...no step says anything about meetings); meetings are the fellowship, NOT the Program.

Re: "...A member simply means you attend AA..." NOT true. Anyone is a member of AA if he/she says he/she is; they don't need to attend meetings at all, to qualify as a member.

(o:
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
Not at all..

"Who is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous?"
By Bill W AA Grapevine August 1946

Hi Gracie and thank you for posting that link.

I would like to say this again, that what I am going to post is not to cause any trouble, but that copy that you put up here is from the Silkworth site.

The Title of that copy at the Silkworth site is not the Title of the genuine article that is at the AA Grapevine site.


The Article that Bill W. wrote in the August 1946 Grapevine, Vol. 3 No. 3, was never entitled "Who Is a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous?"


The genuine Article was Entitled.... "Ours Not To Judge"


It was written by Bill W. at a time when AA members and AA Groups were at war with each other, they had hundreds and sometimes thousands of AA Rules that were applied to each and every person before anyone could even be considered for AA membership.

This was of course, before the AA Traditions were adopted into Alcoholics Anonymous in 1950.

The part of the article that you site says: Our A.A. door stands wide open, and if he passes through it and commences to do anything at all about his problem, he is considered a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He signs nothing, agrees to nothing, promises nothing. We demand nothing. He joins us on his own say so.

And if you continue to read further on, one paragraph below the above, what it says is: Though he may be thrown out of a club, nobody thinks of throwing him out of A.A. He is a member as long as he says he is.

In the 12 and 12, on page 139:
Tradition Three - The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

In Tradition Three, the long form, its states the following:

Early intolerance based on fear.
To take away any alcoholic's chance at A.A. was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence.
Membership regulations abandoned.
Two examples of experience.
Any alcoholic is a member of A.A. when he says so.




Below is the genuine Article taken directly from the AA Grapevine, with the correct name of that Article.


Ours Not to Judge
August 1946 - Vol. 3 No. 3

The first edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous makes this brief statement about membership: "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted." This expressed our feeling as of 1939, the year our book was published.

Since that day all kinds of experiments with membership have been tried. The number of membership rules which have been made (and mostly broken!) are legion. Two or three years ago the Central Office asked the groups to list their membership rules and send them in. After they arrived we set them all down.

They took a great many sheets of paper. A little reflection upon these many rules brought us to an astonishing conclusion. If all of these edicts had been in force everywhere at once it would have been practically impossible for any alcoholic to have ever joined Alcoholics Anonymous. About nine-tenths of our oldest and best members could never have got by!

Who'd Have Lasted?

In some cases we would have been too discouraged by the demands made upon us. Most of the early members of A.A. would have been thrown out because they slipped too much, because their morals were too bad, because they had mental as well as alcoholic difficulties. Or, believe it or not, because they did not come from the so-called better classes of society.

We oldsters could have been excluded for our failure to read the book Alcoholics Anonymous or the refusal of our sponsor to vouch for us as a candidate. And so on ad infinitum. The way our "worthy" alcoholics have sometime tried to judge the "less worthy" is, as we look back on it, rather comical. Imagine, if you can, one alcoholic judging another!

At one time or another most A.A. Groups go on rule-making benders. Naturally enough, too, as a Group commences to grow rapidly it is confronted with many alarming problems. Panhandlers begin to pan-handle. Members get drunk and sometimes get others drunk with them. Those with mental difficulties throw depressions or break out into paranoid denunciations of fellow members. Gossips gossip, and righteously denounce the local Wolves and Red Riding Hoods.

Newcomers argue that they aren't alcoholics at all, but keep coming around anyway. "Slipees" trade on the fair name of A.A., in order to get themselves jobs. Others refuse to accept all the 12 Steps of the Recovery Program. Some go still further, saying that, the "God business" is bunk and quite unnecessary. Under these conditions our conservative program-abiding members get scared. These appalling conditions must be controlled, they think. Else A.A. will surely go to rack and ruin. They view with alarm for the good of the Movement!

At this point the Group enters the rule and regulation phase. Charters, by-laws and membership rules are excitedly passed and authority is granted committees to filter out undesirables and discipline the evil doers. Then the Group Elders, now clothed with authority, commence to get busy.

Recalcitrants are cast into the outer darkness, respectable busybodies throw stones at the sinners. As for the so-called sinners, they either insist on staying around, or else they form a new Group of their own. Or maybe they join a more congenial and less intolerant crowd in their neighborhood. The Elders soon discover that the rules and regulations aren't working very well. Most attempts at enforcement generate such waves of dissension and intolerance in the Group that this condition is presently recognized to be worse for the Group life than the very worst that the worst ever did.

After a time fear and intolerance subside. The Group survives unscathed. Everybody has learned a great deal. So it is, that few of us are any longer afraid of what any newcomer can do to our A.A. reputation or effectiveness. Those who slip, those who pan-handle, those who scandalize, those with mental twists, those who rebel at the program, those who trade on the A.A. reputation --all such persons seldom harm an A.A. Group for long. Some of these have become our most respected and best loved.

Some have remained to try our patience, sober nevertheless. Others have drifted away. We have begun to regard these ones not as menaces, but rather as our teachers. They oblige us to cultivate patience, tolerance and humility. We finally see that they are only people sicker than the rest of us, that we who condemn them are the Pharisees whose false righteousness does our Group the deeper spiritual damage.

Ours Not to Judge

Every older A.A. shudders when he remembers the names of persons he once condemned; people he confidently predicted would never sober up; persons he was sure ought to be thrown out of A.A. for the good of the movement. Now that some of these very persons have been sober for years, and may be numbered among his best friends, the oldtimer thinks to himself "What if everybody had judged these people as I once did? What if A.A. had slammed its door in their faces? Where would they be now?"

That is why we all judge the newcomer less and less. If alcohol is an uncontrollable problem to him and he wishes to do something about it, that is enough for us. We care not whether his case is severe or light, whether his morals are good or bad, whether he has other complications or not. Our A.A. door stands wide open, and if he passes through it and commences to do anything at all about his problem, he is considered a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He signs nothing, agrees to nothing, promises nothing. We demand nothing. He joins us on his own say so. Nowadays, in most Groups, he doesn't even have to admit he is an alcoholic. He can join A.A. on the mere suspicion that he may be one, that he may already show the fatal symptoms of our malady.

Of course this is not the universal state of affairs throughout A.A. Membership rules still exist. If a member persists in coming to meetings drunk he may be led outside; we may ask someone to take him away. But in most Groups he can come back next day, if sober. Though he may be thrown out of a club, nobody thinks of throwing him out of A.A. He is a member as long as he says he is.

While this broad concept of A.A. membership is not yet unanimous, it does represent the main current of A.A. thought today. We do not wish to deny anyone his chance to recover from alcoholism. We wish to be just as inclusive as we can, never exclusive.

Perhaps this trend signifies something much deeper than a mere change of attitude on the question of membership. Perhaps it means that we are losing all fear of those violent emotional storms which sometimes cross our alcoholic world; perhaps it bespeaks our confidence that every storm will be followed by a calm; a calm which is more understanding, more compassionate, more tolerant than any we ever knew before.

Bill W.
Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (August, 1946). Reprinted with permission.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NoelleR View Post
Although I agree with a lot of what you say, I do have a couple of nits (nit nit nit).........

Re: "...The AA "program" is not "just" going to meetings...." In point of fact, meetings are NOT any part of the Program of AA (it's written out/defined on pgs 59-60 of the BB...no step says anything about meetings); meetings are the fellowship, NOT the Program.

Re: "...A member simply means you attend AA..." NOT true. Anyone is a member of AA if he/she says he/she is; they don't need to attend meetings at all, to qualify as a member.

(o:
NoelleR
Very well said Noelle.....Thank you very much.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:31 PM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Patriciae View Post
Hi Gracie and thank you for posting that link.

I would like to say this again, that what I am going to post is not to cause any trouble, but that copy that you put up here is from the Silkworth site.

The Title of that copy at the Silkworth site is not the Title of the genuine article that is at the AA Grapevine site.


The Article that Bill W. wrote in the August 1946 Grapevine, Vol. 3 No. 3, was never entitled "Who Is a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous?"


The genuine Article was Entitled.... "Ours Not To Judge"


It was written by Bill W. at a time when AA members and AA Groups were at war with each other, they had hundreds and sometimes thousands of AA Rules that were applied to each and every person before anyone could even be considered for AA membership.

This was of course, before the AA Traditions were adopted into Alcoholics Anonymous in 1950.

The part of the article that you site says: Our A.A. door stands wide open, and if he passes through it and commences to do anything at all about his problem, he is considered a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He signs nothing, agrees to nothing, promises nothing. We demand nothing. He joins us on his own say so.

And if you continue to read further on, one paragraph below the above, what it says is: Though he may be thrown out of a club, nobody thinks of throwing him out of A.A. He is a member as long as he says he is.

[/COLOR]



Below is the genuine Article taken directly from the AA Grapevine, with the correct name of that Article.




Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (August, 1946). Reprinted with permission.
i can cetainly see my self and others in some of the lists of types of people
who try to control aa as they think they know whats best for aa etc

it amazes me how aa ever got off the ground but it proves my point when i said aa traditions are to save itself from its own members as if memebers get there own way they will start to not let people in because they dont like them or they dont like what they hear or what ever reason

reading all the rules people tried to impose in meetings and how it would of excluded most people even bill w wouldnt be allowed to attend aa meetings if the members had there way

its good to see that even today most meetings do not have control freaks running the show some do however but then its never going to be perfect is it ?
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Old 08-08-2014, 03:11 PM
  # 89 (permalink)  
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If I were new to recovery and read a thread like this, I'd have serious second thoughts about AA. When even longtime members can't even agree with each other on the general principles of the program and decide to publicly bicker about it that paints a pretty fuzzy picture.

What ever happened to "take what you need and leave the rest"?
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:03 PM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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I agree with Scott. Some of what I have read here does not match the brochure if you know what I mean. It seems like people just trying to make their point and be right. Not trying to finger shake because if strongly believing you are right is part of your program have at it. If I didn't say that then we could get into a debate if I am right. Being right is not part of my sobriety.
This reminds me of something that just happened in my life. My mother raised us in an end of the world cult since the early 70's. I left home at 19 with $50.00 in my pocket being told I would die as the end of the world was already overdue and this religion is the one true way to survive. To leave means destruction. Well I got a job, got married, had a daughter and am now 46. A month ago she came over and said that since I did not belong to the one true God and she would shun me (she used the word discipline in love) until I became a reinstated member of the cult. That's right unless I go back I will never see my mother again. It seems ridiculous to tell grown people what they have to believe in and what the must do to achieve salvation. Yet some people have no problem being so convinced that they see things or know things others can not that they have the duty to tell other people what is the right way. That circular thinking comes into play. If they don't agree with me they must be stupid. If it is apparent they are not stupid then they must have some sort of mental defect or maybe evil. I appreciate that I am filling in a lot of blanks here but that's how this looks to me.
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:24 PM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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Having read the whole thread, it seems to be a very complex topic regardless of how simplistic it can be viewed, do meetings equal sobriety? or vice versa will ceasing to attend meetings equal relapse?

I personally don't attend meetings but have achieved Sobriety, so on that basis it's far from the only method of gaining Sober results, so there must be other factors at play, for me daily reading and activity on SR keep me grounded and humble, I can never forget about what alcohol did to my life if I am constantly reading other people's stories, it's a constant reminder of where alcohol took me and where it could lead me again, also through contributing to helping others gives me a focus outside of myself, I would imagine meetings facilitate some of these same aspects and so taking them away would be detrimental somewhat.

There is also the aspect of creating a routine, a new lifestyle around a plan to be Sober, and whatever that entails, so stopping your plan or ceasing to do things critical to your plan can again be detrimental eg meetings, for me if I didn't build into my day a way to deal with stress after coming home from work alternative to drinking, I would be in big trouble, also if I decided not to check into SR and as mentioned be reminded of alcoholism, again this would be detrimental.

So I think there is probably a link between having a plan with foundations built on meetings or some other alternative, the natural consequence of taking a big part of that plan away will be negative consequences in the context of alcoholism!!

My 2 cents!!
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:46 PM
  # 92 (permalink)  
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This thread was started by an AA member who posted "25 years and slipped" and went on to discuss how he thought it was not attending meetings that had this other AA member with 25 years go back out and drink. So I think this thread, for the most part, was right on topic.

When I was a newcomer, about one month sober, I asked my then sponsor how these AA meetings keep going?

It was then that she said to me, Patricia, its time to get to an AA Traditions meeting. And I am so very grateful I did, she took me to my first AA Traditions meeting and I listened and I learned. So if I were an AA member, newcomer or not... reading this thread, then I would have loved it.

It shares information about AA, from AA members, the Traditions, from the Steps, from the Big Book and from the Grapevine. Not once did I ever say "you have to" or "do it my way"........there are many people in the thread who think that is what I said, but its not. If you go back through this thread, there isn't one place that I say that.

I was told that I was shoving things down people's throats? All I did was put up good AA information that comes directly from AA materials, it certainly isn't me telling any one, anything,..... but it is what I learned from the Program of AA, from attending AA meetings, from AA materials, the Big Book, the 12 and 12, the Grapevine and attending AA Traditions meetings.

Does that make me right? Well I don't know, all I did was pass on what is written in black and white, that anyone can access and read, then pass it on. I certainly didn't write any of it, but I am passionate about this simple Program of Recovery, it saved my life.....literally.

I do remember hearing "take what you need and leave the rest"......it came from Treatment Centers and filtered its way into AA meetings. The truth is that, as a newcomer, if I took what I thought I needed and left the rest.......I would have picked up a drink and died drunk. So I am grateful that my sponsor at the time shared with me that "take what you need and leave the rest" wasn't in the Big Book or a part of AA at all. That there were clear cut directions, thank God.

Seems that there are many posters here in this thread that I really enjoyed reading, because they are AA members who passed on what was passed to them.... and I am grateful for everyone of them. Not sure that many of the people in the thread are AA members, and if they aren't, why they would even answer the OP, who asked an AA question.....is beyond me.
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Patriciae View Post
Not sure that many of the people in the thread are AA members, and if they aren't, why they would even answer the OP, who asked an AA question.....is beyond me.
As I have stated I am not an AA member and do not attend meetings, but within the forum of "alcoholism" that surely doesn't exclude me from having an opinion on relapse, we are all still fighting the same battle, we all deploy different weapons, but are still striving for the same common goal of Sobriety!!

AA is not the only method of recovery as previously mentioned, so a range of opinions is to be expected surely?!!
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:55 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
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Not sure that many of the people in the thread are AA members, and if they aren't, why they would even answer the OP, who asked an AA question.....is beyond me.
Because it's posted in the open Alcoholism forum.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're are on Sober Recovery.
We are not aligned to any one recovery method.

One of our policies is

Tolerance: Please respect the rights of others to hold beliefs and perspectives, which differ from yours. Our Sober Recovery Forum members are of many nationalities, ages, and cultures. Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.
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Old 08-08-2014, 06:15 PM
  # 95 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Patriciae View Post

Not sure that many of the people in the thread are AA members, and if they aren't, why they would even answer the OP, who asked an AA question.....is beyond me.
Guess once again I am breaking some kind of rule
But
I agree with you

Bob up top the mountain
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Old 08-08-2014, 06:24 PM
  # 96 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob View Post
Guess once again I am breaking some kind of rule
But
I agree with you

Bob up top the mountain
You can't make a thread in the "alcoholism" section of the Forum exclusively for AA members only, the alcoholism Forum is for all members regardless of recovery method!!

You guys gotta get past AA being the only method of recovery out there!! Many SR members use a whole range of methods and we are free to comment on threads as we see fit to do so!!
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Old 08-08-2014, 06:57 PM
  # 97 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
Because it's posted in the open Alcoholism forum.

I'd like to remind everyone that we're are on Sober Recovery.
We are not aligned to any one recovery method.

One of our policies is



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Hi Dee,

I understand what you are saying, and SR ought not be aligned with any one recovery method and for that, I am thankful. But my point was that the Thread was started by an AA member, who brought up things regarding the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous and AA meetings.

Yes, he posted in the Alcoholism Forum. But honestly, if someone had posted about Smart or Rational Recovery in this forum, I wouldn't have answered them. Because no matter what forum they are posted in, the truth is that if I don't know about Smart or RR and I haven't practiced either one.... what would I post about? Except to maybe ask questions of the Thread starter, if I wanted to know about those programs.
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Old 08-08-2014, 07:04 PM
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I appreciate your point Patricia and you've made it twice now.

Nevertheless, outside of the Mens and Womens room and the Secular Connections forum, there are no rules about who can post where - not even in the 12 step forums.

Please everybody - if you think a post breaks a rule, please report it, using the report button on the offending post

If posters bother you, then you need to use the ignore function.

Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option on the drop down menu under their name on the post. You won't see any posts from this member again.
Everyone agreed to the rules, as is, when they signed up

Back to the topic now, thanks

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Old 08-08-2014, 07:05 PM
  # 99 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Purpleknight View Post
You can't make a thread in the "alcoholism" section of the Forum exclusively for AA members only, the alcoholism Forum is for all members regardless of recovery method!!

You guys gotta get past AA being the only method of recovery out there!! Many SR members use a whole range of methods and we are free to comment on threads as we see fit to do so!!
I am fully aware that AA is not the only method of recovery out there, and that there are many other wonderful recovery programs that work. And that SR members use a whole range of methods, which is wonderful.

But this thread was about AA, asked by an AA member. I guess the only answer I can come up with is that perhaps it would have been best if this entire thread was posted in the 12 Step Alcoholism forum?
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Old 08-08-2014, 07:06 PM
  # 100 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I appreciate your point Patricia and you've made it twice now.

Nevertheless, outside of the Mens and Womens room and the Secular Connections forum, there are no rules about who can post where - not even in the 12 step forums.

Please everybody - if you think a post breaks a rule, please report it, using the report button on the offending post

If posters bother you, then you need to use the ignore function.



Everyone agreed to the rules, as is, when they signed up

Back to the topic now, thanks

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That's a done deal Dee Thank you for your time and explanations, you are very helpful
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