litmus test for recovery
 

I have seen hundreds of diligent, smart, and kind-hearted people fail to stay sober for any significant amount of time.

On the other hand, I have seen a plethora of crooked, dumb, and just plain "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" get and stay sober.

As far as I can tell, the litmus test for those succeeding in long term recovery is as simple as a willingness to follow suggestions. This might appear quite obvios at first glance as those who follow the suggestion - "Don't pick up that first drink" are bound to stay sober (DAH!) but it is not as simple as that.

The paradox is... the suggestions themselves (good, bad, smart, dumb) seem to play little, if any, part in the high degree of efficacy in long-term recovery. It's as if ALL the results come from the willingness of the person following the suggestions and hardly any of the results are based on the quality of those suggestions.
:thinking:

If following the suggestions works, then how is the quality determined.

Some say the proof is in the pudding.

What criteria determine the intrinsic quality of suggestions.

Reminds me of the story of the knight with the magic word that made him win all battles. Then one day he is told the word was not magic, he won battles on his own merit. Stripped of his magic word, he was killed in the next battle, because his confidence was attached to the word.

That sounds more like a "self fulfilling prophecy". I have seen plenty of self-confident and optimistic people fail. I have also seen plenty of scared and pessimistic people succeed because they walked through their fear, adversity and failures.

I once discussed this with a 50+ year sober old-timer. He told me to pay attention to peoples actions and ignore their words. He was right, when it comes to recovery - action speaks louder than words. That's where I first noticed that those who commit to action by simply following directions, do better than those who just pay lip-service to their recovery.

The person that is willing to make a change, any change to things, whatever it takes because they want Sobriety bad enough can be successful in sobriety!!

Compared to those that continue the same routine and expect something to change, but they seem to go round and round from relapse to relapse, nothing changes if nothing changes is a phrase used all the time!!

It's all about actions and the effort to do what it takes!! :)

in the story when he used the word, the suggestion, and stopped thinking about his insecurity. Like the people you mention, they move through their fear and take action and get results. Didn't really matter what the word was, it mattered that he did the action, he went into battle. even when he was scared and did what it took to win.

I think often a program does give us confidence to move forward when our own fear and doubt might hold us back without the people saying "you can do this, here, use this."

yes, there is power in us moving forward in spite of fear and doubt, power in having a plan, or a mentor, or a support.

I have seen hundreds of diligent, smart, and kind-hearted people stay sober for over 4 decades and they got sober their first time trying. It's amazing what can happen when one works those 12 steps. These people are also continuing to enlarge their spirituality and continuously look at their own behavior as things keep coming up in their life.

I was not implying that all good people fail or that all bad people succeed. My point is; no matter how good/bad a person starts out as or how good/bad the suggestions are that they follow are - the determing factor is the actiion that they take. Following suggestions guarantees the following;

1. Commitment to take action
2. Willingness to learn new ways
3. Courage to change
4. Practicing new principles
5. Open-mindedness

One still needs to determine which suggestions are good and which are not. I attempted the "moderation management" plan ( the official one ) on the suggestion of person that I trust and respect. That didn't work out so well.

T'would be nice to be able to predict who will stay sober and who won't but many old-timers have told me they are baffled also. The misnomer "too smart to stay sober" is just that--not true. The ones that stay sober are the ones who don't drink and fit altruism into their schedule--but that is true for all good folks across the board.

my own litmus test for alcoholics who talk the talk or actually walk the walk is seeing if there in service work or not or if there helping other people or just being a mouthpiece in meetings
its easy to see right through the speakers and the know alls from the ones who are actually working the program

they will say there grateful but will not do anything at all in terms of action to show it

took me a long time before i could see just how fake some people are around the rooms they might sound like they know what there on about but thats just the mask they seem to wear in the meetings,

only when i started to think of others and really start to go out of my way to help people did i feel the full benefit of what the program is all about
the change from selfish to unselfish,

Not always so easy. In my case, ninety-nine percent of my action occurs outside of meetings.
:abcj:

do you have a mother group that you belong to and help run a meeting ? do you do service work at intergroup and help the fellowship that way ?
sorry i dont understand how you help the fellowship ?

For myself
There is another angle to look at this also.
For a lot of years I was treasurer, purchased the supplies and literature, made the coffee, set up the hall, chaired the beginners meeting, cleaned up etc. for good reasons I started a new meeting that was needed on another night and continued the above. I lived 1/10th mile away and the coffee needed to be started at 5:30 pm for 6:30 meeting and it was so handy for me. My sponsor was after me a lot to share the work as others needed to take part. After too long I stepped away and without coffee the meetings continued until someone came forward.
After the fact I wish I pulled the plug sooner however I acquired a lot of benefits from my service and willing to serve.

Thirty years later I don’t do much at meetings with the thought of having others participate for their sober journey experiences. I do chair at meetings and speak occasionally for a little payback and show the program works if we work it.

BE WELL

My first sponsor a dirty rotten scoundrel he still sober 19 years.

As always i only have my own experience to draw from but I look back and at the outset I followed the suggestions blindly because anything that was pointing me away from the bottle was a "good" suggestion. After a few months I began to sift through suggested actions to find those that more closely fit my particular needs. After a few years I have settled upon a path based on the ideas and practices that insure the most fulfilling life.

When working with the newcomer it is like saving a drowning man. Just keeping the head above water and pointing them toward the shore is enough. Teaching them the finer points of the butterfly stroke or the back stroke can come later and really will serve very little purpose when just trying to help them keep from drowning.

Jon

for my own account i am active in a group and had to stand down as prison liaison officer for inter group were i was running a prison meeting for 2 years but my son got ill so i couldn't keep up the commitment needed i loved that job, watching new comers comeing into the prison full of fear and not knowing how on earth they have ended up in the mess there in
i could share on there level my own experience of wakeing up in cells and trying to remember what i did and then getting sent down in the courts etc

some of whom when they got out of prison we met on release and got them into the fellowship and then let them go
always being there to help but not taking ownership etc

i was probation liaison officer before the prison service work and i have helped out at many meetings over my time as they need people to help

the service side of things for me has given me so much it also helped me change and think of others in a way i have never been before in my life

you get no pats on the head in aa service work it can be demanding of time but for me its been so worth it

on top of this work i am also a single parent dad with a home to run and my kids to care for and also work 4 nights as well as a wagon driver
but for me i feel i owe this to aa as its given me so much.

the only thing that i dont like is people who say there so grateful to aa yet can not find the time to join a mum group or get into service work at all

i understand people have work just like i do but surely if there honest they could make a bit of time to help out at there local meeting i am sure the meetings would love an extra pair of hands

dont know what its like in the usa as there seems to many many more meetings over there than here in the uk but over here its about 10% of members doing service work in a group
so what on earth is going on ? bad sponsors i blame for it as years ago all sponsors would include the need to join a mother group and get involved with aa

Part (or maybe most) of my litmus test would be unwavering self-honesty. for many of us (hell, people in general) this takes some effort.

honesty about your problem. to yourself, independently of what you need to speak.

honest about your ability to really be ok with never doing your chosen behavior again. -i really think that if in the back of your mind you are saying "well, maybe one day, when this is all over..." youre screwed. like other addiction lies, you can have this one in your skull without anyone having an inkling that its there.

honesty in your surrender. i know that powerlessness is a debated term, but it encompasses what we secular folks have to do also- admit that "this isnt working for me anymore, and i have to change or lose everything".

i believe real self-honesty usually helps us with issues of changing our minds. accepting the above things as FACT allows way less wiggle room.

talking a good game reassures our counselors, our friends/family, newcomers, and sponsors. Belief in these words is not necessary for them to sound good. I think its a pretty important indicator of success though.

My first sponsor who has 37 yes of sobriety, is a walking text book on AA, psychology and recovery, has sponsored hundreds, is a genius, and can speak intelligently on every major form of spirituality summed it up to me with the following.

"I don't have a clue as to who will make it and who won't. I have been wrong do many times I have given up trying to figure it out

One or two very kind people have used similar words to describe me in recent times.

However, that is not what I was like when I came to AA. In fact I was the opposite, a sick, lazy, arrogant, bigoted, self centred, barely functioning, uneducated, unemployable and supremely stupid human being who could not stop drinking.

I met a lot of smart kind hearted people in AA who assured me that to some degree or other they had been just like me, and recovered. Was I willing to follow their suggestions?

That's the miracle of AA.:)

there are, of course, hundreds of thousands of people who followed nobody's suggestion and are sober for decades.

we just don't see them at meetings or on forums.

it is quite possible to do that, and the litmus test of willingness then doesn't apply in that sense.