litmus test for recovery
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by LBrain 
I was told yesterday by someone who sent me a text from a meeting last night that I wasn't an alcoholic. I just had a life event that made me stop drinking. ?????????????
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
AA is a program of attraction not promotion. Imo, those who try and push their views on others regardless of how well-intentioned are not always helpful.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by Boleo
.
On the other hand, I have seen a plethora of crooked, dumb, and just plain "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" get and stay sober.
On the other hand, I have seen a plethora of crooked, dumb, and just plain "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" get and stay sober.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 322
Originally Posted by desypete
how can you prove it ? for all i know they could of drank themselves to death or still drinking
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
Mike,
i tried pretty much all of those. and they did nothing for me, i kept drinking.
that does NOT mean that this did not work for others.
the way you're putting it implies that all alcoholics before AA came along were doomed to keep drinking.
as i read it, you're saying AA is the only way to get and stay sober.
and it just isn't so.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
Mike,
i tried pretty much all of those. and they did nothing for me, i kept drinking.
that does NOT mean that this did not work for others.
the way you're putting it implies that all alcoholics before AA came along were doomed to keep drinking.
as i read it, you're saying AA is the only way to get and stay sober.
and it just isn't so.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
how can you prove it ? for all i know they could of drank themselves to death or still drinking or in mental institutions or prisons.
i went sober for 15 years on my own but it got me in the end, i picked up the drink again and it lead to 8 short years of drinking, but in those 8 years it got worse and worse i ended up drinking everyday and lost everything
it taught me one huge lesson in life
i can not do this on my own, aa saved me and still does today from me picking up that first drink
desypete,
i'm glad it worked for you.
it will likely work for me, too. and doing it by myself didn't work for me, either.
but, BUT: to go from there to say that nothing other than this way works is just...uh...not so.
i went sober for 15 years on my own but it got me in the end, i picked up the drink again and it lead to 8 short years of drinking, but in those 8 years it got worse and worse i ended up drinking everyday and lost everything
it taught me one huge lesson in life
i can not do this on my own, aa saved me and still does today from me picking up that first drink
desypete,
i'm glad it worked for you.
it will likely work for me, too. and doing it by myself didn't work for me, either.
but, BUT: to go from there to say that nothing other than this way works is just...uh...not so.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by LBrain
I was told yesterday by someone who sent me a text from a meeting last night that I wasn't an alcoholic. I just had a life event that made me stop drinking. ?????????????
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
no one else can get sober or stay sober or have emotional sobriety unless they have god in there lives
they believe it with all there hearts so anything else is wrong so there just blind and obsessed with it all is what i find and they will fight you to the death if you ever question them or there god
thankfully not everyone in aa is like that god believers or not there living a good life and dont try to force anything on anyone they will help anyone without expecting anything in return. they will not expect anything from anyone
there the ones who are really working and living a program and it shows in how they are on the outside and more importantly how there living there life in the big outside world
so take no notice of anyone who tells you that your not an alcoholic only you can say if your an alcoholic or not no one else can
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by fini
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
Mike,
i tried pretty much all of those. and they did nothing for me, i kept drinking.
that does NOT mean that this did not work for others.
the way you're putting it implies that all alcoholics before AA came along were doomed to keep drinking.
as i read it, you're saying AA is the only way to get and stay sober.
and it just isn't so.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
Mike,
i tried pretty much all of those. and they did nothing for me, i kept drinking.
that does NOT mean that this did not work for others.
the way you're putting it implies that all alcoholics before AA came along were doomed to keep drinking.
as i read it, you're saying AA is the only way to get and stay sober.
and it just isn't so.
This is from the part fo the Big Book explaining what alcoholism is in the AA context. Part of its characteristic is that none of the listed alternatives worked for them (or me or you).
If they worked for an individual, he would never need to pick up a Big Book and would never end up in the asylums and sanitariums that were the fate of alcoholics for whom these ideas do not work.
The list hasn't changed much, but when people make sweeping statements that there are many ways I could have recovered, I assume they are talking about things that are not on this list, and I would like to know what they are.
I did meet one devout proponent of a new godless way but, as he was on his thirteenth admission under the mental health act, and is now dead, his ideas did not seem all that credible.
So, I'd have to say AA is the only method of recovery that I have actually seen work for alcoholics of my type in the long term. The leading medical experts on alcoholism in this country have also reached this conclusion.
This of course excludes 80 or 90% of cases of diagnosable alcohol use disorder who will get over their problems either on their own or with limited non-AA assistance.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by soberlicious
Here are my questions:
1) Did anyone in the world recover from alcoholism by way of a spiritual awakening before 1935?
2) What exactly defines a "real or chronic alcoholic"?
3) By his own account, Dee had a very debilitating addiction. From what I've read, he identifies as an alcoholic. Are some of you saying that because he recovered without AA that he is not really recovered or that he wasn't a chronic or real alcoholic to begin with? Because if that is the case, then I would like to see someone just go ahead and type out the words "Dee is not a real alcoholic". I would find that a strange statement. However, if I'm understanding correctly here, that's exactly what some of you are saying.
It is odd to me that a person would diminish how another person went about changing their life just because it doesn't match how they went about changing their life. The people that I know in AA who truly live the steps do not do this.
1) Did anyone in the world recover from alcoholism by way of a spiritual awakening before 1935?
2) What exactly defines a "real or chronic alcoholic"?
3) By his own account, Dee had a very debilitating addiction. From what I've read, he identifies as an alcoholic. Are some of you saying that because he recovered without AA that he is not really recovered or that he wasn't a chronic or real alcoholic to begin with? Because if that is the case, then I would like to see someone just go ahead and type out the words "Dee is not a real alcoholic". I would find that a strange statement. However, if I'm understanding correctly here, that's exactly what some of you are saying.
It is odd to me that a person would diminish how another person went about changing their life just because it doesn't match how they went about changing their life. The people that I know in AA who truly live the steps do not do this.
1) Rowland H is one example. Jung spoke of others. there was the Oxford Group, Washingtonians to a point.
2) This is a reasonable definition "The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink."
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by Gottalife
So, I'd have to say AA is the only method of recovery that I have actually seen work for alcoholics of my type in the long term. The leading medical experts on alcoholism in this country have also reached this conclusion.
Would you also be willing to share some peer-reviewed/published documentation with the conclusions that the leading medical experts came to that you reference above? I'm assuming they have some classification system for the different types of alcoholics as well, they must in order to determine which treatment is best suited for each type.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,431
Firstly I should apologise, particuarly and publicly to Mike.
I should not have got involved in this thread - but I guess it proves that some things can still irk me.
I'm not irked personally if people say I'm not a real alcoholic.
I am irked though at the implication that some peoples experience is not as valuable as others.
That not only runs totally contrary to the rules and policies of this website, but it really gets my goat on behalf of the thousands of people who come here daily looking for support understanding and encouragement.
My drinking almost killed me.
I see my story reflected here every day.
Every one of those stories and every one of those people deserves support, not judgement.
D
I should not have got involved in this thread - but I guess it proves that some things can still irk me.
I'm not irked personally if people say I'm not a real alcoholic.
I am irked though at the implication that some peoples experience is not as valuable as others.
That not only runs totally contrary to the rules and policies of this website, but it really gets my goat on behalf of the thousands of people who come here daily looking for support understanding and encouragement.
My drinking almost killed me.
I see my story reflected here every day.
Every one of those stories and every one of those people deserves support, not judgement.
D
Recognizes the Beast
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: In the kitchen, cooking up a storm
Posts: 704
Back to the OP, from my limited experience I have found that those who have some degree of humility in their words and actions are more likely to get sober than those who have narcissism as one of their defining characteristics.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by nomis
Back to the OP, from my limited experience I have found that those who have some degree of humility in their words and actions are more likely to get sober than those who have narcissism as one of their defining characteristics.
i don't know how the narcissism spectrum relates to recovery success for problem drinking.. I think the term narcissism takes on a whole new meaning in recovery just like the word "ego" does. It works as a deterrent to any outside ideas or counter-arguments...kind of like the race card in politics...it shuts down the conversation by shaming the opposing view...I don't think just "nice people" get sober or recover...in fact if anything the opposite might be partially true
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 176
It's funny because I kept telling my therapist that I'm not an "alcoholic" when she became alarmed about my drinking (I just don't like that word and the baggage it comes with). When I went to some AA meetings, there was the message that if I didn't admit to being an alcoholic, it meant that I was in denial. Now if I were to go to one and say that I've been able to stop for a longer period of time using my own methods, will I be told that I'm not a "real" alcoholic after all, even though before I was told that I was in denial? Doesn't this seem kinda self-serving for their own methods? JMHO.
Anyway, there's a lot of opinions in this thread, but at the end of the day, it's your own opinion, your own beliefs, and your own experiences that matter.
Anyway, there's a lot of opinions in this thread, but at the end of the day, it's your own opinion, your own beliefs, and your own experiences that matter.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by NightsWatch
Anyway, there's a lot of opinions in this thread, but at the end of the day, it's your own opinion, your own beliefs, and your own experiences that matter.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Originally Posted by Gottalife
Same here fini,
This is from the part fo the Big Book explaining what alcoholism is in the AA context. Part of its characteristic is that none of the listed alternatives worked for them (or me or you).
If they worked for an individual, he would never need to pick up a Big Book and would never end up in the asylums and sanitariums that were the fate of alcoholics for whom these ideas do not work.
The list hasn't changed much, but when people make sweeping statements that there are many ways I could have recovered, I assume they are talking about things that are not on this list, and I would like to know what they are.
I did meet one devout proponent of a new godless way but, as he was on his thirteenth admission under the mental health act, and is now dead, his ideas did not seem all that credible.
So, I'd have to say AA is the only method of recovery that I have actually seen work for alcoholics of my type in the long term. The leading medical experts on alcoholism in this country have also reached this conclusion.
This of course excludes 80 or 90% of cases of diagnosable alcohol use disorder who will get over their problems either on their own or with limited non-AA assistance.
This is from the part fo the Big Book explaining what alcoholism is in the AA context. Part of its characteristic is that none of the listed alternatives worked for them (or me or you).
If they worked for an individual, he would never need to pick up a Big Book and would never end up in the asylums and sanitariums that were the fate of alcoholics for whom these ideas do not work.
The list hasn't changed much, but when people make sweeping statements that there are many ways I could have recovered, I assume they are talking about things that are not on this list, and I would like to know what they are.
I did meet one devout proponent of a new godless way but, as he was on his thirteenth admission under the mental health act, and is now dead, his ideas did not seem all that credible.
So, I'd have to say AA is the only method of recovery that I have actually seen work for alcoholics of my type in the long term. The leading medical experts on alcoholism in this country have also reached this conclusion.
This of course excludes 80 or 90% of cases of diagnosable alcohol use disorder who will get over their problems either on their own or with limited non-AA assistance.
the list is not speaking to how people try to get and stay sober and/or recovered. it only addresses some of the ways "we" tried to manage drinking and failed.
"....rather shall we reflect that the roads to recovery are many;"
you can find this here: Bill W.'s Comments on Philip Wylie's Article.
i remembered it because, oddly enough, the LifeRing forum in the years-ago-days had this Wilson quote on the start page.
if the OP had been clear that it referred to the litmus test for AA recovery i wouldn't have joined the conversation.
the OP makes sense to me in the context of AA recovery.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by fini
cabo,
the OP is based on "willingness to", which is very different from "willpower over".
pretty much opposite, in my own special book
the OP is based on "willingness to", which is very different from "willpower over".
pretty much opposite, in my own special book
i still think the OP had a moment of clarity lol
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
Posts: 4,359
Originally Posted by Gottalife
The list hasn't changed much, but when people make sweeping statements that there are many ways I could have recovered, I assume they are talking about things that are not on this list, and I would like to know what they are.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
The whole idea of buying into any method is an important one. When one is invested in an idea, they work toward that idea being successful. You can see this in the business world, in education, everywhere really.
There was mention of confirmation bias in another thread, and I think it's at play here as well in terms of recovery methods.
There was mention of confirmation bias in another thread, and I think it's at play here as well in terms of recovery methods.
Originally Posted by About.com
Where do your beliefs and opinions come from? If you are like most people, you probably like to believe that your beliefs are the result of years of experience and objective analysis of the information you have available. The reality is that all of us are susceptible to a tricky problem known as a confirmation bias. While we like to imagine that our beliefs are rational, logical, and objective, the fact is that our ideas are often based on paying attention to the information that upholds our ideas and ignoring the information that challenges our existing beliefs.
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