soberlicious

What does this even mean? How is language like this any different than the kind of language we use to stigmatize the addicted? "Drunk, junkie, crack *****, skid row bum..." Pejorative language used casually like this is what adds to dehumanizing and stigmatizing. Why you would chose to use the word "slutty" is beyond me.

jdooner

It is my opinion that there is a spectrum of alcoholics and addicts. There are people who have experienced a variety of different things in life and have been activated at different points n life. Herein lies the challenge with most recovery programs. We don't fit into neat little boxes. However, there are components we can relate to and I find truth in Boleo's comments that many people with alcohol problems may lie at varying points on this addiction spectrum. What it takes for a long time heroin user might be different for a weekend valium binger. To me we need to be respectful however, in spite of what method or where we relate.

For me I tried various programs and ended up finding that a spiritual approached worked best. I relate to much of what is state in AA's BB. But I use some of RR's techniques daily after learning and practicing. I find it does nobody any good to state my program is better than yours, which is part of the genesis of this thread. Its a risk of finding sobriety and how do you carry that message.

Fenix and Boleo in a way your comments hit the nail on the head for me with this OP. Its not about, which one is better but what comes through to me is sharing just our experience in service to others. I believe if we are open and honest and courageous enough to share our experiences we will be able to make others comfortable they can desire what we have and provide how we achieved this.

silentrun

Boleo you also have stated that alcoholism is like being "a little bit pregnant". Can you please explain the need to classify it if that is the case.

Soberpotamus

It's a mighty thin and flimsy veil he hangs. I'd bet most can see right through it.

Sent from my iPhone using SoberRecovery

soberlicious

Do you have any experience with a non-spiritual based recovery? Or are you trying to project your inexperience onto my experience?

Boleo

Best example I can think of is the concept of "The point of no return" in airplane travel. 50% fuel means we can return to point of origin (Self Empowerment). 49% fuel means we are powerless to go back to point of origin. Where exactly that threshold is crossed is still a mystery to modern science. Even though the quantitative difference may only be a few gallons, the qualitative difference is insurmountable.

silentrun

So how is that like being pregnant? Either you are or you are not right?

Boleo

I can honestly say I wasted 3 to 5 years chasing that "Red Herring". I did get some results with it, but those results were far from reliable.

Now that I am aware of just how dangerous a relapse can be - "Unreliable" recovery is not good enough for me, nor am I interested in pretty "good" recovery.

"Sometimes the good is the enemy of the best"
(Abe Lincoln)

Boleo

Either you have or have not crossed the "point of no return".

Only a person who has experienced a failure to stay sober using willpower can describe it. Anything else is pure speculation and conjecture.

That's why we share our "Experience, Strength and Hope". Not our "Inexperience, Strength and Hope".

Boleo

I go to a lot of trouble to articulate exactly where my "experience" lies. I don't pretend to know what a "heroin user" or "narcotics addict" might need.
On the other hand, those who simply use willpower to stay sober do (quite often) pretend to know what alcoholics of my type need.

I myself quit smoking using willpower alone. I tried telling my sister who smoked 20 years longer than I did, that I had a solution that might help her.
Her response was "You really are clueless". I never tried giving another smoker advice ever again.

silentrun

I agree there are levels to this thing. I wouldn't tell someone with dui's or who had become a all day drinker that I went through as much suffering as they. I feel lucky I caught myself right before I just didn't care anymore.
My experience actually matches a lot of the people on here. That's not inexperience just a different one. Even if I can't offer experience to someone that was in your situation I still have strength and hope. You said so yourself and 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Dee74

It's best all round if people stick to their own experience, and not their opinion of other people's experience.
Personal remarks are best not made at all, or confined to PM.

Thanks for your co-operation everyone

Dee
Moderator
SR

DoubleBarrel

You are basing this on what?

FeenixxRising

I believe any further discussion would be counter-productive.

I'll just say that I believe even those people who suffer from what you label alcohol-ISM, can achieve and maintain sobriety through a number of different methods, including a spiritual experience and sheer willpower. I say this because I do not, and will never believe anyone is completely powerless and that willpower could ever be rendered completely useless.

Moreover, it would be arrogant of me to suggest there is only one solution for those who suffer from what you call alcohol-ISM. And not only arrogant, but potentially harmful to those who are still struggling.

jdooner

Feenixxrising - while I appreciate your contributions I am offended by the generalization of my ability to stop on sheer willpower. I was abused as a child, it began at six. I know what it is like to be powerless. Begging someone for your life. Hands tied behind your back not knowing if you will live or die. Unable to tell anyone about it for fear of what it would do to your family, to your only friend a sibling of these monsters. I have experienced being powerless holding my friend's jugular together as he bleeds out. I am taken by some of the touching experiences here on this site of pure powerlessness. With a loved one being taken well too soon to cancer. The loss of a child. These people can speak of being powerless and unless you have experience with this how do you know? It like commenting on riding a bike having never done so but read magazines.

Yet, towards the end for me I felt the same emotions of being powerless. I did not want the cocaine, I needed it. I did not want the drinks, I needed them. I consciously would tell myself I was not going to have a drink but then I would rationalize starting tomorrow. I hired someone to try and keep me away form the drugs. They could not. Willpower? I call this insanity. I was insane and utterly powerless to boot.

I too found the concept of being powerless over something off-putting at first. Hell my willpower had saved me, so I had thought. I actually did rise out of the ashes like a Phoenix. Rich and powerful. I could use my wallet to get whatever I wanted. Except authenticity, contentment, and sober. My willpower kept me in active addiction for well too long actually. Because when you get down to it I was actually powerless over alcohol, cocaine, and sex. Cigarettes I used Rational Recovery's AVRT, as I was not powerless. Same with processed sugars and wheat and it works well when your not powerless over something.

It goes both ways. Telling someone to use willpower when they have tried over and over is just as offensive (and dangerous) as telling someone they were powerless when they were not. Its alright you did not get as bad as me or maybe did not have the same experiences...I am happy to did not have to endure the same horrors. But don't comment on my experiences or my feelings, just as others should not project onto you.

RobbyRobot

Experiences of powerlessness and willpower are purely subjective experiences. As well, for me anyways, these experiences were also irrational and emotionally extreme. Does one need to be completely powerless to have an essential experience of powerlessness? I don't see the requirement. There is a tipping point in these experiences, and the fulcrum for me was at the flight-or-fight point within my psyche. This level of saturation is enough in itself to create a crisis requiring immediate action be taken to resolve the experience. I think anything beyond this point migrates into the realm of psychotic experiences if not resolved earlier.

I do not believe a spiritual experience is always required to resolve the above scenarios. I myself do have a spiritual solution, and from this position, and from my life journey, it is clear to me that willpower can as well have its place in resolving flight-or-fight scenarios, including addiction recovery and sober lifestyles thereafter.

Importantly, my understanding of "willpower" is more defined as being about "freewill power" than simplistic willpower. Freewill is a better descriptive of how my own empowerment of self works for me, whereas willpower not so much describes my self-empowerment.

Alcoholics and alcoholism are not best defined as being one-size-fits-all. It is unfortunate that oppositional cliques yet persist naysaying the other. At the end of the day, we all have our relevant experiences on what is and is not alcoholism and being or not being an alcoholic. I think it best to not exclude or include others in generalities of definitions.

FeenixxRising

J, I don't mean to offend, but I think I need to clarify my position: 1) Whenever I speak of "powerless" on this site, I'm referring only to breaking a physical addiction. 2) I'm not suggesting in any way that any alcoholic or addict just use sheer willpower to get sober.

I fully concede that many addicts need help, and I fully concede that many alcoholics may need a spiritual experience to achieve sobriety. However, I am suggesting that some addicts may (and have) overcome their addicton primarily through willpower.

I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered, no child should ever have to go through that, and I understand how that kind of abuse can profoundly impact the child's adult life. I used the word "completely" for a reason, as I understand that many addicts are in such a bad state, they probably are all but powerless to stop their addiction. But any rock-bottom addict who achieves sobriety, had to at least put some effort (power) into getting sober, even if it was just agreeing to rehab, or dragging their butt to a meeting, finding a sponsor and working the Steps.

We could argue all day what "powerless" means, but IMO it's not a productive conversation. I'm completely open to whatever works for the individual alcoholic/addict. And I try very hard to respect everyone's sobriety.

jdooner

We are good Feenix - I should not have used my expereince in this way. It only serves to undermine my recovery efforts to move through this. I appreciate your concerns, thanks.

The point I meant to make and needed not go to these lengths is I see both sides of the recovery argument between powerless and empowerment. Both have a role in recovery and we should not try to shoot each other in the process to make one method look more appealing (speaking of myself here). This is the classic alcoholic behavior of old, as it only hurts ourselves. I know your post was from a place of good and integris to who you are. After rereading I think we see things more similar than dissimilar.

I respect the triumphs you, Soberlicious, Freshstart and others have made through self empowering!!!

Dee74

Closed by request OP.

Dee
Moderator
SR