HOW do you tell the DIFFERENCE???
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Someone who is "alcoholic" has a drinking problem.
Someone with a drinking problem may not necessarily be an "alcoholic".
Many people with drinking problems have been known to stop when the motivation for them to do so is strong enough,i.e threat of divorce or separation,threat to carreer, threat to health.
"Alcoholism" is a complex problem with complex behaviour.
It is often described as a disease which combines mental obsession with physical cravings.It affects every major organ of the body including the brain. It results in dependency which can produce severe withdrawal symptoms and sometimes even death when the alcohol is removed.We may be incorrectly labelling people when we refer to them as "alcoholic".
Sometimes it may just be safe to say that the person has a "drinking problem" because the word "alcoholic" is sometimes viewed as a dirty word.
Someone with a drinking problem may not necessarily be an "alcoholic".
Many people with drinking problems have been known to stop when the motivation for them to do so is strong enough,i.e threat of divorce or separation,threat to carreer, threat to health.
"Alcoholism" is a complex problem with complex behaviour.
It is often described as a disease which combines mental obsession with physical cravings.It affects every major organ of the body including the brain. It results in dependency which can produce severe withdrawal symptoms and sometimes even death when the alcohol is removed.We may be incorrectly labelling people when we refer to them as "alcoholic".
Sometimes it may just be safe to say that the person has a "drinking problem" because the word "alcoholic" is sometimes viewed as a dirty word.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally Posted by Strawberry777
Patsy (and whomever else)
I appreciate your advice about calling people and going to the AA meetings, but have to say they most certainly failed me today (and yesterday and the day before that for a fact).
Did the AA meeting thing, was a first timer Monday night, and only got one hand shake from a 19 year old guy. I felt sooo out of place and totally NOT knowing what in the hell was goin on that I didnt even announce myself as a first timer. NO WAY IN HELL...... what in the heck was the chip thing all about???? (doesnt someone think that maybe they should let new people know what there meetings and rituals are all about?? I know that I was NOT the ONLY new person there) you all say to get phone numbers... well how do you do that when the other "women" are all so clicked togeather that it is nearly impossible to get near them, let alone try and introduce yourself and ask for there numbers.....
very discouraging I must say................. not sure what to do, guess try another AA meeting and hope the people are a bit more open to newbies.
I appreciate your advice about calling people and going to the AA meetings, but have to say they most certainly failed me today (and yesterday and the day before that for a fact).
Did the AA meeting thing, was a first timer Monday night, and only got one hand shake from a 19 year old guy. I felt sooo out of place and totally NOT knowing what in the hell was goin on that I didnt even announce myself as a first timer. NO WAY IN HELL...... what in the heck was the chip thing all about???? (doesnt someone think that maybe they should let new people know what there meetings and rituals are all about?? I know that I was NOT the ONLY new person there) you all say to get phone numbers... well how do you do that when the other "women" are all so clicked togeather that it is nearly impossible to get near them, let alone try and introduce yourself and ask for there numbers.....
very discouraging I must say................. not sure what to do, guess try another AA meeting and hope the people are a bit more open to newbies.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
How do you tell the difference??
Go to a gathering where there's alcohol being served and sit in a nice quiet spot and watch. Watch which people sip and put the drink down half empty and walk off and then watch which people come along and finish off the drink because it's wasteful to throw it out. That's how you tell the difference!!
Growing Up
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: right here
Posts: 614
Strawberry,
This collection of experiences and tools here is some of the best I've seen in one place. You may want to print out a few of the posts that strike you most, and even underline what resonnates with you. We know the truth when we hear it.
I think in the beginning of facing this problem we have a lot of accepting to do. Accept first that something in your life has not gone as you had hoped it would. The tough thing about the beginning of this path is you are detoxing while you are learning what tools you need to get through each day(that's the not-so-good news). But the reason everyone says it gets easier is because it's true (the good news). You re-teach yourself what happiness is. One little lesson at a time. And guess what? The happiness actually gets better than you imagined.
It sounds to me like you need some folks to walk with. If your AA meeting wasn't a great experience, until you find the right one, come here and read often. This place, excellent books and resources, and growing my own strength is what has worked for me. A little trick that helped me was keeping a count of my sober days by putting a polished stone in a bowl every morning. They would pile up and quietly remind me of the strength I was growing. I have six months today.
Welcome!
This collection of experiences and tools here is some of the best I've seen in one place. You may want to print out a few of the posts that strike you most, and even underline what resonnates with you. We know the truth when we hear it.
I think in the beginning of facing this problem we have a lot of accepting to do. Accept first that something in your life has not gone as you had hoped it would. The tough thing about the beginning of this path is you are detoxing while you are learning what tools you need to get through each day(that's the not-so-good news). But the reason everyone says it gets easier is because it's true (the good news). You re-teach yourself what happiness is. One little lesson at a time. And guess what? The happiness actually gets better than you imagined.
It sounds to me like you need some folks to walk with. If your AA meeting wasn't a great experience, until you find the right one, come here and read often. This place, excellent books and resources, and growing my own strength is what has worked for me. A little trick that helped me was keeping a count of my sober days by putting a polished stone in a bowl every morning. They would pile up and quietly remind me of the strength I was growing. I have six months today.
Welcome!
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, Strawberry,
If you aren't getting what you need from AA, and if you have trouble with the label alcoholic, and if you don't particularly believe that your substance abuse problem is a disease, please be aware that there are many alternatives to AA. SMART Recovery, LifeRing, SOS, Women for Sobriety, Rational Recovery--just to name a few. I strongly believe that you are more likely to succeed if you choose a recovery program with which you are comfortable--the people, and the philosophy.
I happen to believe that recovery comes from within one's self, that it is not necessary to have a spiritual or religious basis to your decision to quit drinking, and that it is a behavior rather than a disease. That works for me, and for many others. But others here have described how AA works for them, and would disagree with me about these issues. But there are areas of agreement among recovery programs.
Face-to-face meetings work for some folks, online meetings work for others (there are some here, and various of the groups I mentioned also have online meetings). Forum boards worked for me. So don't give up just because of a bad experience with one program or one format.
People who achieve long term sobriety do it by making a firm commitment to abstinence. They make changes in their lives to make that happen. And they plan and practice for situations in which drinking is likely to tempt them.
For most people that firm commitment to abstinence is the first hurdle! Behavioral approaches refer to the Stages of Change, and you would be in the 'contemplative' stage. It's unlikely that you'll achieve sobriety until you move past that, but it's an important accomplishment that you got there (how many people do we all know who clearly have drinking problems who aren't even contemplating change?).
You can get group support from folks who have been in your situation at meetings, or here. You may get support from family and friends (usually that's a little more complicated, though). You can quit drinking without the help of any specific recovery program (which is what most people do).
No program will provide the motivation to quit; that comes from within. No program will provide the will power; I believe that comes from within, others believe it comes from a higher power. But any program can provide you with the tools to avoid urges, the support for your decision, and information about what you're going through physically, psychologically, and emotionally. Many people read about the principles of recovery that different groups use, go to meetings that they find comfortable, and craft their own recovery 'program'.
If you want more information about different recovery programs, click on the 12-Step Resources link at the top of this page. If you'd like more info on the better-known groups, let me know and I'll post a link about that. Meanwhile, the best way to achieve sobriety is to stop drinking....
Best wishes, and thanks for posting,
Don S
If you aren't getting what you need from AA, and if you have trouble with the label alcoholic, and if you don't particularly believe that your substance abuse problem is a disease, please be aware that there are many alternatives to AA. SMART Recovery, LifeRing, SOS, Women for Sobriety, Rational Recovery--just to name a few. I strongly believe that you are more likely to succeed if you choose a recovery program with which you are comfortable--the people, and the philosophy.
I happen to believe that recovery comes from within one's self, that it is not necessary to have a spiritual or religious basis to your decision to quit drinking, and that it is a behavior rather than a disease. That works for me, and for many others. But others here have described how AA works for them, and would disagree with me about these issues. But there are areas of agreement among recovery programs.
Face-to-face meetings work for some folks, online meetings work for others (there are some here, and various of the groups I mentioned also have online meetings). Forum boards worked for me. So don't give up just because of a bad experience with one program or one format.
People who achieve long term sobriety do it by making a firm commitment to abstinence. They make changes in their lives to make that happen. And they plan and practice for situations in which drinking is likely to tempt them.
For most people that firm commitment to abstinence is the first hurdle! Behavioral approaches refer to the Stages of Change, and you would be in the 'contemplative' stage. It's unlikely that you'll achieve sobriety until you move past that, but it's an important accomplishment that you got there (how many people do we all know who clearly have drinking problems who aren't even contemplating change?).
You can get group support from folks who have been in your situation at meetings, or here. You may get support from family and friends (usually that's a little more complicated, though). You can quit drinking without the help of any specific recovery program (which is what most people do).
No program will provide the motivation to quit; that comes from within. No program will provide the will power; I believe that comes from within, others believe it comes from a higher power. But any program can provide you with the tools to avoid urges, the support for your decision, and information about what you're going through physically, psychologically, and emotionally. Many people read about the principles of recovery that different groups use, go to meetings that they find comfortable, and craft their own recovery 'program'.
If you want more information about different recovery programs, click on the 12-Step Resources link at the top of this page. If you'd like more info on the better-known groups, let me know and I'll post a link about that. Meanwhile, the best way to achieve sobriety is to stop drinking....
Best wishes, and thanks for posting,
Don S
Old and in the Way
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: High and Dry
Posts: 789
Struggling with Step One
Originally Posted by Peter
Someone who is "alcoholic" has a drinking problem.
Someone with a drinking problem may not necessarily be an "alcoholic".
Someone with a drinking problem may not necessarily be an "alcoholic".
I know how incredibly how simple the answer is - to accept that I have am powerless over alcohol. Its so much easier said than done. Easy to do right at this moment, or for a day or two, but also easy to talk myself out of it after a few days.
I've said here that I'm an alcoholic. I don't know if its true or not. I know I spend more time drinking than I do with my kids (and am drinking much of the time I'm with them, for that matter). I drink every night, and feel physical pain when I don't drink. I know that alcohol is like oxygen for me - I may be able to hold my breath for a little while, but eventually I'm going to take some deep gasping breaths. I know that not drinking requires an act of will, and that drinking is an act of surrender.
I guess to sum it up, I think all this effort of trying to decide whether I'm clinically an "alcoholic" is probably just serving as an excuse to delay making the real changes that I need to take.
I hope I haven't just hijacked this tread, and that this doesn't come off as a rant. Also, sorry not to have come clean sooner that I'm still in the bottle in spite of two very public annoucements of "day 1." It helps me to be here, even if I've still got a long, long way to go.
Joe
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Originally Posted by Brookie
This question really haunts me. I'm not even sure it's helpful to answer it. After a couple of days sober, I find it way too easy to convince myself that the answer is that I have is a "drinking problem," and that there's no need for urgent action because I'm not an "alcoholic" drinking a case of beer every day with a conspicuously wrecked life. In fact, I've been using that logic to justify drinking even more than I was before I joined the boards or went to an AA meeting.
I know how incredibly how simple the answer is - to accept that I have am powerless over alcohol. Its so much easier said than done. Easy to do right at this moment, or for a day or two, but also easy to talk myself out of it after a few days.
I've said here that I'm an alcoholic. I don't know if its true or not. I know I spend more time drinking than I do with my kids (and am drinking much of the time I'm with them, for that matter). I drink every night, and feel physical pain when I don't drink. I know that alcohol is like oxygen for me - I may be able to hold my breath for a little while, but eventually I'm going to take some deep gasping breaths. I know that not drinking requires an act of will, and that drinking is an act of surrender.
I guess to sum it up, I think all this effort of trying to decide whether I'm clinically an "alcoholic" is probably just serving as an excuse to delay making the real changes that I need to take.
I hope I haven't just hijacked this tread, and that this doesn't come off as a rant. Also, sorry not to have come clean sooner that I'm still in the bottle in spite of two very public annoucements of "day 1." It helps me to be here, even if I've still got a long, long way to go.
Joe
I know how incredibly how simple the answer is - to accept that I have am powerless over alcohol. Its so much easier said than done. Easy to do right at this moment, or for a day or two, but also easy to talk myself out of it after a few days.
I've said here that I'm an alcoholic. I don't know if its true or not. I know I spend more time drinking than I do with my kids (and am drinking much of the time I'm with them, for that matter). I drink every night, and feel physical pain when I don't drink. I know that alcohol is like oxygen for me - I may be able to hold my breath for a little while, but eventually I'm going to take some deep gasping breaths. I know that not drinking requires an act of will, and that drinking is an act of surrender.
I guess to sum it up, I think all this effort of trying to decide whether I'm clinically an "alcoholic" is probably just serving as an excuse to delay making the real changes that I need to take.
I hope I haven't just hijacked this tread, and that this doesn't come off as a rant. Also, sorry not to have come clean sooner that I'm still in the bottle in spite of two very public annoucements of "day 1." It helps me to be here, even if I've still got a long, long way to go.
Joe
Sometimes it sounds like what came first, the chicken or the egg?
Keep it simple Joe, running the wrong questions around in our brain over and over can keep us stuck for a very very very long time.
I would simply ask you if you want to stop drinking? If you do, and you find that you are unable to do that, then I would suggest getting help.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Brookie
I know that alcohol is like oxygen for me - I may be able to hold my breath for a little while, but eventually I'm going to take some deep gasping breaths.
alcohol is like oxygen for me
Old and in the Way
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: High and Dry
Posts: 789
Thanks Patsy and Dan. That's kind of the point I was trying to make myself, in my own long-winded way.
This afternoon's threads debating the definition of alcoholism and whether it is a "disease" have been pretty interesting (if completely unhelpful in resolving the debate). I haven't been hanging around quite long to know, but it would be interesting to find out if there is a clear division on the question between the alchie's/addicts and the alanon folks.
This afternoon's threads debating the definition of alcoholism and whether it is a "disease" have been pretty interesting (if completely unhelpful in resolving the debate). I haven't been hanging around quite long to know, but it would be interesting to find out if there is a clear division on the question between the alchie's/addicts and the alanon folks.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Brookie
This afternoon's threads debating the definition of alcoholism and whether it is a "disease" have been pretty interesting (if completely unhelpful in resolving the debate).
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
The most important question we need to ask ourselves is :
"IS ALCOHOL MAKING MY LIFE UNMANAGABLE?"
The real issue is not wether I am an alcoholic or if I have a drinking problem or if alcoholism is a disease or not.
We could add a dozen other questions to the ones above and debate them from now until the cows come home.
My first priority was to get some quality sobriety under my belt before I could start thinking about joining the philosopical discussions taking place in the parking lot after meetings or to try out for the debating team.
"IS ALCOHOL MAKING MY LIFE UNMANAGABLE?"
The real issue is not wether I am an alcoholic or if I have a drinking problem or if alcoholism is a disease or not.
We could add a dozen other questions to the ones above and debate them from now until the cows come home.
My first priority was to get some quality sobriety under my belt before I could start thinking about joining the philosopical discussions taking place in the parking lot after meetings or to try out for the debating team.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 10
It's very much a terminology issue I guess, but I've always read a 'problem drinker' to mean someone who drinks either too much and/or too often, but does not physically suffer any more than a non-problem drinker upon stopping.
I've always understood the term 'alcoholic' to mean that the person is physically addicted to alcohol and will suffer physically as a result of stopping drinking.
Both evidently desire alcohol mentally, but the alcoholic's body has changed in such a way that the alcohol takes over the job of many of the natural chemicals in the body, thus causing serious (potentially fatal) withdrawal symptoms when the alcohol intake is stopped.
Problem drinkers sometimes progress to become alcoholics, although not always of course.
Based on my subjective interpretation of these terms I would love to be a problem drinker!
I've always understood the term 'alcoholic' to mean that the person is physically addicted to alcohol and will suffer physically as a result of stopping drinking.
Both evidently desire alcohol mentally, but the alcoholic's body has changed in such a way that the alcohol takes over the job of many of the natural chemicals in the body, thus causing serious (potentially fatal) withdrawal symptoms when the alcohol intake is stopped.
Problem drinkers sometimes progress to become alcoholics, although not always of course.
Based on my subjective interpretation of these terms I would love to be a problem drinker!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 187
I just saw this interesting discussion ... when I got to recovery 17 years ago I wasted so much time questioning if I was alcoholic that I missed out on the gifts of the program ... my concept of an alcoholic was skid-row, homeless, jobless, etc. I did not fit that description. I had a lot of "yets" to do ... finally someone got tired of my litany and led me to this in the BB:
"Could I be an alcoholic without some of the hair-raising experiences I had heard of in meetings? The answer came to me very simply in the first step of the Twelve Steps of AA. 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.' This didn't say we had to be in jail, ten, fifty, or one hundred times. It didn't say I had to lose one, five or ten jobs. It didn't say I had to lose my family. It didn't say I had to finally live on skid row and drink bay rum, canned heat or lemon extract. It did say 'admitted I was powerless over alcohol; that my life had become unmanageable.'
Most certainly I was powerless over alcohol, and for me, my life had become unmanageable. It wasn't how far I had gone, but where I was headed. It was important to me to see what alcohol had done to me and would continue to do if I didn't have help." - excerpt page 379, Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition, page 354, Fourth Edition
Since that time, I have found many other reference in the Big Book to answer my questions, but at that time, this was the turning point for this alcoholic. I just celebrated 17 years of sobriety July 16 -- what a gift.
Strawberry ... I felt left out too when I first got to the rooms. It helped to let down the walls and allow people to communicate with me. When you go to meetings, please introduce yourself as a newcomer ... otherwise how will we know? Good luck on your journey ... believe me, it is worth the time and effort.
(Hello! Patsy!)
"Could I be an alcoholic without some of the hair-raising experiences I had heard of in meetings? The answer came to me very simply in the first step of the Twelve Steps of AA. 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.' This didn't say we had to be in jail, ten, fifty, or one hundred times. It didn't say I had to lose one, five or ten jobs. It didn't say I had to lose my family. It didn't say I had to finally live on skid row and drink bay rum, canned heat or lemon extract. It did say 'admitted I was powerless over alcohol; that my life had become unmanageable.'
Most certainly I was powerless over alcohol, and for me, my life had become unmanageable. It wasn't how far I had gone, but where I was headed. It was important to me to see what alcohol had done to me and would continue to do if I didn't have help." - excerpt page 379, Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition, page 354, Fourth Edition
Since that time, I have found many other reference in the Big Book to answer my questions, but at that time, this was the turning point for this alcoholic. I just celebrated 17 years of sobriety July 16 -- what a gift.
Strawberry ... I felt left out too when I first got to the rooms. It helped to let down the walls and allow people to communicate with me. When you go to meetings, please introduce yourself as a newcomer ... otherwise how will we know? Good luck on your journey ... believe me, it is worth the time and effort.
(Hello! Patsy!)
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Keep on,keeping on,Strawberry777,,You say,i didnt announce myself as a first timer.I myself was a very shy,person coming to the rooms of AA,in the beginning.My sponsor told me,that if i need something from another ,ask for it.or how else would another know that i need help.It was a biggie for me to do,but i did it.We have lots of new faces,come and go in our home group.Some come from other groups,,or have been in AA awhile,as well as newcomers.We have a greeter at the door,and they ask are you a newcomer,if they havent seen this person before.But not all groups do this.May i suggest that next time,tell them that your a, newcomer..Its unfortunate that this group doesnt take the time,to find out how many new comers are in the room.But please dont let this stop you from getting help,in the fellowship of program.In the beginning,i shoped around from one meeting to the next,until i found a group i could call home.Been there for many years........There are many out there willing to help you,keep on keeping on,no matter what.
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