Is it unrealistic to expect an apology
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
Originally Posted by ellaj 
I understand the steps, the idea that actions speak louder than words. I understand not wanting to rehash it on a daily basis. But to ignore it or pretend that it didn't happen isn't healthy either. So how does one have a sit down with a RA without creating stress or fear of relapse by saying "I need to talk about this at least once." Or should I do what he suggested and talk to a priest? I don't see how that would help but clearly I'm the one with the issues because he's "just fine". Resentments? He'll yes. Nearly 20 years of them. Am I proud of him for being nearly a year in recovery? With all my heart, I am his biggest cheering section. Is our relationship worth salvaging? I hope so. Thank you all for your advice and opinions I do appreciate it.
I heard something early in recovery that has stuck with me. "expectations are just premeditated resentments".
That does not mean that you don't deserve an apology. That does not mean that he does not have the responsibility to make it right. It just means that expectations of others is mine to own, not theirs. I spent many years doing and not doing things because of what I thought others thought or what I thought others should do, should have done or failed to do, in MY mind. Those are my thoughts, not theirs. I have to take responsibility for me and only me.
I need to do the right thing and not worry about what others are doing. What other people think, is none of my business.
One thing I have learned is just because I think it, doesn't make it true. Work on your resentments and let him worry about his.
It is hard to let go and move on. Hell sometimes it is just hard to live in the here and now but it is a lot harder when you are carting the baggage of the past with you.
Take care and stick around
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,424
How about a "structured" discussion with a therapist mediating?
Tell your husband what you just told us--you are on his side but this stuff is festering
and you need to express it and get some acknowledgement about the damage.
It's not that you want to live in the past and rehash, but that you need to clear the decks for the future. Not unreasonable in my view.
Also, have you checked out the "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" forum on this site?
Posting for advice there would yield some helpful information I think--lots of wise folks who have lived what you are talking about for years. Not all of them read over here in
the Alcoholics forum.
The stickys at the top of their forum are also really helpful.
Tell your husband what you just told us--you are on his side but this stuff is festering
and you need to express it and get some acknowledgement about the damage.
It's not that you want to live in the past and rehash, but that you need to clear the decks for the future. Not unreasonable in my view.
Also, have you checked out the "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" forum on this site?
Posting for advice there would yield some helpful information I think--lots of wise folks who have lived what you are talking about for years. Not all of them read over here in
the Alcoholics forum.
The stickys at the top of their forum are also really helpful.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
The first time I got sober in '89 I jumped into AA with vigor and stayed for 8 years. Looking back, My total immersion in the "program" took priority over just doing things with my family (I would have to chair a meeting on evenings my son had a ball game etc.) I regret that time spent wrongly. I agree that the self-centeredness does not go away with the booze and words do not begin to heal lest actions (daily) are employed diligently. The BB is still quoted on these issues but always urges wives and families to "give him time". Bill truly had no experience in the family department and was never really there as a husband (too busy saving drunks) so I ignore those pretentious writings myself. Lois on the other hand had a lifetime of experience to draw on living with a self centered drunk so in my humble opinion Al-Anon is a good place to start. Also since 1945 "more has been revealed" in the field of co-dependency, self empowerment and couples counseling. You will have to go outside of AA to find those resources. Best wishes to the whole family.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by GracieLou
For you. I think that is a key point to remember.
I am glad these came to you so quickly. That is not always the case.
Everyone is unique. We do not all fit into the round hole at the same time. I am a square peg and it took a lot of time and work on my part to shave off the sides enough to fit into the hole and at times I still get splinters.
I think we need to remember what works for one does not always work for another or even if it does, we do not always get there at the same time.
I also feel it is important to remember that the only problem is not always drinking. Once the alcohol is removed we are not fixed. There can be a lot of other issues going on that need time and space to identify and work on them.
I am grateful not only to the AA program but to all the people that showed patience and understanding. They give me unconditional love. If someone had told me to go make an apology when they felt it was time, I don't think I would be sober today. I had to get to that point of willingness on my own.
I am glad these came to you so quickly. That is not always the case.
Everyone is unique. We do not all fit into the round hole at the same time. I am a square peg and it took a lot of time and work on my part to shave off the sides enough to fit into the hole and at times I still get splinters.
I think we need to remember what works for one does not always work for another or even if it does, we do not always get there at the same time.
I also feel it is important to remember that the only problem is not always drinking. Once the alcohol is removed we are not fixed. There can be a lot of other issues going on that need time and space to identify and work on them.
I am grateful not only to the AA program but to all the people that showed patience and understanding. They give me unconditional love. If someone had told me to go make an apology when they felt it was time, I don't think I would be sober today. I had to get to that point of willingness on my own.
So it was all about YOU?
That is my point.
Regardless, you are right. What works for some, does not always work for others. I am glad AA helped you realized your wrong doings and gave you unconditional love and support. Some people need that, and AA is good for those people.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by ellaj
I understand the steps, the idea that actions speak louder than words. I understand not wanting to rehash it on a daily basis. But to ignore it or pretend that it didn't happen isn't healthy either. So how does one have a sit down with a RA without creating stress or fear of relapse by saying "I need to talk about this at least once." Or should I do what he suggested and talk to a priest? I don't see how that would help but clearly I'm the one with the issues because he's "just fine". Resentments? He'll yes. Nearly 20 years of them. Am I proud of him for being nearly a year in recovery? With all my heart, I am his biggest cheering section. Is our relationship worth salvaging? I hope so. Thank you all for your advice and opinions I do appreciate it.
Do what YOU want to do. This is about YOUR health and well being. How the alcoholics selfishness made YOU feel. Do not let anyone tell you that you need to "Wait" or "approach with caution"
You deserve it. If confronting him about your feelings is going to "create a relapse" that is his own fault, not yours. No one causes a "relapse" except the alcoholic themselves.
Don't be taken advantage of. You deserve to have your voice and concerns heard by someone other than a priest or al anon members? You deserve to have it heard by your SPOUSE.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
Originally Posted by Weaver
So it was all about YOU?
That is my point.
Regardless, you are right. What works for some, does not always work for others. I am glad AA helped you realized your wrong doings and gave you unconditional love and support. Some people need that, and AA is good for those people.
That is my point.
Regardless, you are right. What works for some, does not always work for others. I am glad AA helped you realized your wrong doings and gave you unconditional love and support. Some people need that, and AA is good for those people.
Are you saying that I am one of those people that needed help?
Some people need unconditional love and support? Don't we all?
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by GracieLou
I am not sure what you mean? It was all about me? Do you mean that I needed AA? The Steps? Support? Patience? Guidance etc to be able to get and remain sober? Or to make an amends? I am confused here?
Are you saying that I am one of those people that needed help?
Some people need unconditional love and support? Don't we all?
Are you saying that I am one of those people that needed help?
Some people need unconditional love and support? Don't we all?
Never mind. I don't want to retract from the OP's original intentions of the thread.
Let's just move on
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Apologies are different then amends.
For example, apologies are usually a statement of our regret for having said or done something we appreciate as having been wrong. We own it and apologize. We can also apologize for our neglect in taking actions to have done something required of us. I'm sure other examples can be spoken of too...
However, amends is taking ownership as well, and additionally means our taking actions to make right what we have wronged against another person or even against an institution. We take actions to realistically make what reparations we can make without causing harm (again) to ourselves or to others.
I think apologies are entirely of a personal matter, while amends transcend our personality, and as such we take ownership of our amends as a matter of our principals, ethics, and moralities. Amends in this way are distinct from apologies.
I think apologies have worth enough, if the person receiving such apologies has respect for the person offering the apologies. Amends can yet be readily accomplished even if the receiver of the amends has no respect for the maker of the amends.
Friends apologize. Lovers apologize. Husbands and wives and significant others apologize. Family members apologize. Its a matter of respect, trust, and even love. Even strangers can apologize...
If I want an apology that apparently isn't forth coming, then I need to first examine my motives involved in my wanting an apology, before I go on to judge what others owe me as a statement of their being regretful. It really comes down to who offended me, and our shared inter-personal relationship. The more intimate the relationship, the more intrinsic worth we share, and of course this means apologies have greater worth respectively.
Life experience has taught me that relationships are always a two-way connection, and its best for me to clear my own side of the street before I insist on whomever clearing theirs for my benefit...
For example, apologies are usually a statement of our regret for having said or done something we appreciate as having been wrong. We own it and apologize. We can also apologize for our neglect in taking actions to have done something required of us. I'm sure other examples can be spoken of too...
However, amends is taking ownership as well, and additionally means our taking actions to make right what we have wronged against another person or even against an institution. We take actions to realistically make what reparations we can make without causing harm (again) to ourselves or to others.
I think apologies are entirely of a personal matter, while amends transcend our personality, and as such we take ownership of our amends as a matter of our principals, ethics, and moralities. Amends in this way are distinct from apologies.
I think apologies have worth enough, if the person receiving such apologies has respect for the person offering the apologies. Amends can yet be readily accomplished even if the receiver of the amends has no respect for the maker of the amends.
Friends apologize. Lovers apologize. Husbands and wives and significant others apologize. Family members apologize. Its a matter of respect, trust, and even love. Even strangers can apologize...
If I want an apology that apparently isn't forth coming, then I need to first examine my motives involved in my wanting an apology, before I go on to judge what others owe me as a statement of their being regretful. It really comes down to who offended me, and our shared inter-personal relationship. The more intimate the relationship, the more intrinsic worth we share, and of course this means apologies have greater worth respectively.
Life experience has taught me that relationships are always a two-way connection, and its best for me to clear my own side of the street before I insist on whomever clearing theirs for my benefit...
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Apologies are different then amends.
For example, apologies are usually a statement of our regret for having said or done something we appreciate as having been wrong. We own it and apologize. We can also apologize for our neglect in taking actions to have done something required of us. I'm sure other examples can be spoken of too...
However, amends is taking ownership as well, and additionally means our taking actions to make right what we have wronged against another person or even against an institution. We take actions to realistically make what reparations we can make without causing harm (again) to ourselves or to others.
I think apologies are entirely of a personal matter, while amends transcend our personality, and as such we take ownership of our amends as a matter of our principals, ethics, and moralities. Amends in this way are distinct from apologies.
I think apologies have worth enough, if the person receiving such apologies has respect for the person offering the apologies. Amends can yet be readily accomplished even if the receiver of the amends has no respect for the maker of the amends.
Friends apologize. Lovers apologize. Husbands and wives and significant others apologize. Family members apologize. Its a matter of respect, trust, and even love. Even strangers can apologize...
If I want an apology that apparently isn't forth coming, then I need to first examine my motives involved in my wanting an apology, before I go on to judge what others owe me as a statement of their being regretful. It really comes down to who offended me, and our shared inter-personal relationship. The more intimate the relationship, the more intrinsic worth we share, and of course this means apologies have greater worth respectively.
Life experience has taught me that relationships are always a two-way connection, and its best for me to clear my own side of the street before I insist on whomever clearing theirs for my benefit...
For example, apologies are usually a statement of our regret for having said or done something we appreciate as having been wrong. We own it and apologize. We can also apologize for our neglect in taking actions to have done something required of us. I'm sure other examples can be spoken of too...
However, amends is taking ownership as well, and additionally means our taking actions to make right what we have wronged against another person or even against an institution. We take actions to realistically make what reparations we can make without causing harm (again) to ourselves or to others.
I think apologies are entirely of a personal matter, while amends transcend our personality, and as such we take ownership of our amends as a matter of our principals, ethics, and moralities. Amends in this way are distinct from apologies.
I think apologies have worth enough, if the person receiving such apologies has respect for the person offering the apologies. Amends can yet be readily accomplished even if the receiver of the amends has no respect for the maker of the amends.
Friends apologize. Lovers apologize. Husbands and wives and significant others apologize. Family members apologize. Its a matter of respect, trust, and even love. Even strangers can apologize...
If I want an apology that apparently isn't forth coming, then I need to first examine my motives involved in my wanting an apology, before I go on to judge what others owe me as a statement of their being regretful. It really comes down to who offended me, and our shared inter-personal relationship. The more intimate the relationship, the more intrinsic worth we share, and of course this means apologies have greater worth respectively.
Life experience has taught me that relationships are always a two-way connection, and its best for me to clear my own side of the street before I insist on whomever clearing theirs for my benefit...
We don't need to dissect the root term of an apology, and make it this huge philosophical debate. As Hemmingway once said "Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?
She needs to examine her motives for wanting an apology? No, she does not. There is no examining. She deserves a sincere APOLOGY (basic term here...where one feels bad for their actions to others) from her husband.
I feel bad for her, and it makes me sad to see that despite taking the alcohol away, many people still exhibit the selfish traits that alcohol seemed to bring about in the first place...perhaps even unbeknowst to them.
I was selfish (and still am) for way to long at the expense of my wife and children. I cannot help but feel a natural yearning to apologize, verbally and in my actions.
Who knows though, feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt lol
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
A grain of salt it is then, Weaver.
If the husband can't or won't give a sincere apology, that speaks volumes for me, and all the deserving in the world wont change the position of the husband. That required change is on him to do or not. I don't agree with the husbands taken position, fwiw.
At the end of the day though, it is unrealistic to expect an apology that has any worth if the expected giver doesn't believe it is in them to give, yeah?
On all kinds of levels, there are more serious difficulties going on here than the responsibilities of apologies being accomplished. Its a sad situation all around. Quitting alcohol gives us a chance to make good. Not everybody though has the required courage to fulfil themselves of those chances, and so they continue to live in fear long after the bottle is put down. Fear itself can destroy a life enough to make it almost unlivable, is my own experience. Throwing blame around rarely brings us the results we are seeking in our relationships with others, and even with ourselves, guilt is an awful taskmaster for those enslaved to their own selfishness.
If the husband can't or won't give a sincere apology, that speaks volumes for me, and all the deserving in the world wont change the position of the husband. That required change is on him to do or not. I don't agree with the husbands taken position, fwiw.
At the end of the day though, it is unrealistic to expect an apology that has any worth if the expected giver doesn't believe it is in them to give, yeah?
On all kinds of levels, there are more serious difficulties going on here than the responsibilities of apologies being accomplished. Its a sad situation all around. Quitting alcohol gives us a chance to make good. Not everybody though has the required courage to fulfil themselves of those chances, and so they continue to live in fear long after the bottle is put down. Fear itself can destroy a life enough to make it almost unlivable, is my own experience. Throwing blame around rarely brings us the results we are seeking in our relationships with others, and even with ourselves, guilt is an awful taskmaster for those enslaved to their own selfishness.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
I said I'm sorry a million times. Sorry had become a meaningless word. There are two types of amends. Direct and living. Direct are taking full responsibility for past actions and the damage they have caused. I know it took me a couple of years sober to fully realize the impact my drinking had on loved ones. Until I had been sober for a long time. I just did not see it so any amends would have been incomplete. Living amends are not drinking and working very hard on not being that person anymore.
I do believe that he should talk to you about the past and let you know to the best of his abilities how his actions hurt you but do not expect to much because he may not be capable of really understanding
I do believe that he should talk to you about the past and let you know to the best of his abilities how his actions hurt you but do not expect to much because he may not be capable of really understanding
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
A grain of salt it is then, Weaver.
If the husband can't or won't give a sincere apology, that speaks volumes for me, and all the deserving in the world wont change the position of the husband. That required change is on him to do or not. I don't agree with the husbands taken position, fwiw.
At the end of the day though, it is unrealistic to expect an apology that has any worth if the expected giver doesn't believe it is in them to give, yeah?
On all kinds of levels, there are more serious difficulties going on here than the responsibilities of apologies being accomplished. Its a sad situation all around. Quitting alcohol gives us a chance to make good. Not everybody though has the required courage to fulfil themselves of those chances, and so they continue to live in fear long after the bottle is put down. Fear itself can destroy a life enough to make it almost unlivable, is my own experience. Throwing blame around rarely brings us the results we are seeking in our relationships with others, and even with ourselves, guilt is an awful taskmaster for those enslaved to their own selfishness.
If the husband can't or won't give a sincere apology, that speaks volumes for me, and all the deserving in the world wont change the position of the husband. That required change is on him to do or not. I don't agree with the husbands taken position, fwiw.
At the end of the day though, it is unrealistic to expect an apology that has any worth if the expected giver doesn't believe it is in them to give, yeah?
On all kinds of levels, there are more serious difficulties going on here than the responsibilities of apologies being accomplished. Its a sad situation all around. Quitting alcohol gives us a chance to make good. Not everybody though has the required courage to fulfil themselves of those chances, and so they continue to live in fear long after the bottle is put down. Fear itself can destroy a life enough to make it almost unlivable, is my own experience. Throwing blame around rarely brings us the results we are seeking in our relationships with others, and even with ourselves, guilt is an awful taskmaster for those enslaved to their own selfishness.
I think you must be getting confused as to what the OP's original post and this thread is about.
Try taking a step back, and reading it again. I think you will be surprised at what you find
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Weaver
I think you must be getting confused as to what the OP's original post and this thread is about.
Try taking a step back, and reading it again. I think you will be surprised at what you find
Try taking a step back, and reading it again. I think you will be surprised at what you find
No worries here. Have a good day.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Poconos PA
Posts: 1,544
Originally Posted by Weaver
Do what YOU want to do. This is about YOUR health and well being. How the alcoholics selfishness made YOU feel. Do not let anyone tell you that you need to "Wait" or "approach with caution"
You deserve it. If confronting him about your feelings is going to "create a relapse" that is his own fault, not yours. No one causes a "relapse" except the alcoholic themselves.
Don't be taken advantage of. You deserve to have your voice and concerns heard by someone other than a priest or al anon members? You deserve to have it heard by your SPOUSE.
You deserve it. If confronting him about your feelings is going to "create a relapse" that is his own fault, not yours. No one causes a "relapse" except the alcoholic themselves.
Don't be taken advantage of. You deserve to have your voice and concerns heard by someone other than a priest or al anon members? You deserve to have it heard by your SPOUSE.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
To look at it from another angle, it is usually in our power to forgive, which has the primary effect of ending our own suffering through resentment. This does not mean you have to forget. There has been no contrition, no recognition of the wrongs done, no effort to put things right, just denial if I have read your post correctly.
The fact that nothing has yet been forthcoming could be taken as a good sign, though I think a year is far too long to get around to step 9 (amends), there are
very good reasons why this is left to step 9 and not done at step 2.
It is vitally important that the alcoholic has a clear understanding of the harm done, and his part in it. This is covered in steps 4 to 8. If he is still has an alcoholic mind, his motivations in taking this step will often be selfish in nature because thats how an alcoholic mind works. When he makes his amends he should be hard on himself but always considerate of others. He should not try to save his own skin at someone else's expense. He should not discuss anyone elses faults, he's there to clean his side of the street.
Consider the grudging apology. Given under duress, the motivation is simply to get someone off his back. I'm sorry! Alright? Now leave me alone!
Or the newly sober alcoholic who takes it into his head to make amends in order to ease his conscience. Again this is done out of selfish alcoholic thinking. He wants to feel better at your expense.
An example was a man I sponsored briefly two years ago, had not got past step 2. He took it into his head, without talking to anyone, to confess to his partner about an affair he had, which she didn't know about. He went further and named the other party. Certainly he was honest, brutally honest, in his apology.
The result? Somewhat bewildered he found himself kicked out onto the street. His partner confronted the other woman in front of her husband, and that was the end of another marriage. Far from being an experience of forgiveness and reconciliation, his misguided attempt to make himself feel better resulted in much more harm being done. To top it off, he got drunk.
Perhaps we dont have to be miserable. Maybe we can forgive and get on with our lives. Perhaps one day our patience will be rewarded and there will be some healing.
Maybe if we dont expect anything, we will not be disappointed.
The fact that nothing has yet been forthcoming could be taken as a good sign, though I think a year is far too long to get around to step 9 (amends), there are
very good reasons why this is left to step 9 and not done at step 2.
It is vitally important that the alcoholic has a clear understanding of the harm done, and his part in it. This is covered in steps 4 to 8. If he is still has an alcoholic mind, his motivations in taking this step will often be selfish in nature because thats how an alcoholic mind works. When he makes his amends he should be hard on himself but always considerate of others. He should not try to save his own skin at someone else's expense. He should not discuss anyone elses faults, he's there to clean his side of the street.
Consider the grudging apology. Given under duress, the motivation is simply to get someone off his back. I'm sorry! Alright? Now leave me alone!
Or the newly sober alcoholic who takes it into his head to make amends in order to ease his conscience. Again this is done out of selfish alcoholic thinking. He wants to feel better at your expense.
An example was a man I sponsored briefly two years ago, had not got past step 2. He took it into his head, without talking to anyone, to confess to his partner about an affair he had, which she didn't know about. He went further and named the other party. Certainly he was honest, brutally honest, in his apology.
The result? Somewhat bewildered he found himself kicked out onto the street. His partner confronted the other woman in front of her husband, and that was the end of another marriage. Far from being an experience of forgiveness and reconciliation, his misguided attempt to make himself feel better resulted in much more harm being done. To top it off, he got drunk.
Perhaps we dont have to be miserable. Maybe we can forgive and get on with our lives. Perhaps one day our patience will be rewarded and there will be some healing.
Maybe if we dont expect anything, we will not be disappointed.
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