Sobriety is a choice
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
Simply because although my sins are indeed my responsibility, they sure as hell are not my fault. That's why.
as I'm off I guess to a AA meeting
thinking that my (our) sins are not my (our) fault just don't ring a bell here
the only place in which I can go with that I guess would be
the devil made me do it ??
if they are not your fault -- just curious -- who's fault are they ??
I do consider booze -- for me -- to be the liquid devil -- is that where I lay the blame ??
MM
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by caboblanco
right..that's my point..your belief doesn't mean anything. the other factors do. Factors you don't control. Belief is a comfort.
It almost sounds as if belief for you is not so much even a comfort?
You sound to me as one who struggles with defeat as a matter of course rather than one who manages routine success...
Sorry if I'm being intrusive.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 132
My experience
I make a choice
I take action based on that choice, understanding I cannot guarantee the results of my actions
Analyze results and use that information to make further choices and action
I have to make a choice and also take action, but even so results are not guaranteed as I cannot control all the variables. I do not live in a vacuum.
I make a choice
I take action based on that choice, understanding I cannot guarantee the results of my actions
Analyze results and use that information to make further choices and action
I have to make a choice and also take action, but even so results are not guaranteed as I cannot control all the variables. I do not live in a vacuum.
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by caboblanco
right..that's my point..your belief doesn't mean anything. the other factors do. Factors you don't control. Belief is a comfort.
so what ever way you wish to put it then it will always come down to peoples beliefs
you believe you want the date she believes she doesn't want the date
so who is right ?
what your trying to do here is get your own way just because you believe it in terms of trying to get a date with someone who doesn't want one with you
so you have 2 options either carry on believing that you will get that date or change your belief and face it
if your looking for the reason why so many people have different ways of staying sober like i was then for me the reason is because people believe in what there doing to stay sober
take that belief away and what is there left ?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob
I will ponder that one for the day Robby -- thank you
as I'm off I guess to a AA meeting
thinking that my (our) sins are not my (our) fault just don't ring a bell here
the only place in which I can go with that I guess would be
the devil made me do it ??
if they are not your fault -- just curious -- who's fault are they ??
I do consider booze -- for me -- to be the liquid devil -- is that where I lay the blame ??
MM
as I'm off I guess to a AA meeting
thinking that my (our) sins are not my (our) fault just don't ring a bell here
the only place in which I can go with that I guess would be
the devil made me do it ??
if they are not your fault -- just curious -- who's fault are they ??
I do consider booze -- for me -- to be the liquid devil -- is that where I lay the blame ??
MM
Are we getting beyond the purposes of this thread, perhaps?
We can always start a new one!
Have a great day MM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Belief is more than comfort for me. Control of every factor is not required to achieve outstanding success and accomplishment. Elements of whatever challenge are what they are, and knowing the difference of what can be influenced and what is best left alone is a matter of life experience informing those choices, yeah?
It almost sounds as if belief for you is not so much even a comfort?
You sound to me as one who struggles with defeat as a matter of course rather than one who manages routine success...
Sorry if I'm being intrusive.
It almost sounds as if belief for you is not so much even a comfort?
You sound to me as one who struggles with defeat as a matter of course rather than one who manages routine success...
Sorry if I'm being intrusive.
if I sound pessemistic..you are getting the wrong idea..my beliefs are a direct result of experience. I have had many successes..this not getting a date is just hypothetical....nothing recent
maybe anything is possible..we just haven't figured it out yet....that's a scientific idea...not a spiritual one
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by caboblanco
I wouldn't say it's a comfort...no. my beliefs that aren't formed from logic or science...my spiritual beliefs... are a direct result from my experiences..not blind faith. i do have respect for people that can have blind faith...but i question whether that is really blind...have they had spiritual experiences? something they can't put into words.
if I sound pessemistic..you are getting the wrong idea..my beliefs are a direct result of experience. I have had many successes..this not getting a date is just hypothetical....nothing recent
maybe anything is possible..we just haven't figured it out yet....that's a scientific idea...not a spiritual one
if I sound pessemistic..you are getting the wrong idea..my beliefs are a direct result of experience. I have had many successes..this not getting a date is just hypothetical....nothing recent
maybe anything is possible..we just haven't figured it out yet....that's a scientific idea...not a spiritual one
There is more to discover than we can possibly know. I'm very agnostic on what is PRESENTLY knowable
pray for strength
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Are we getting beyond the purposes of this thread, perhaps? We can always start a new one!
Agreed. Sobriety is a choice, often hard-won. Variables, consequences and follow-up are not lived in a vacuum and comprise the last many posts of the thread which I would like to revisit someday as they are a huge jumble in my newly sober, foggy head (which I hope to never revisit someday).
Life may not be a romance movie, but neither is it a horror flick...this is not 'being Switzerland' because life is sometimes a romance movie and sometimes a horror flick. We can push our odds towards living closer to one movie or another simply by making a choice.
I believe that I am lucky to have the brain capacity to believe. I believe that I will leave my scary Halloween costumes in a box, walk out the door, greet the world as I am and pray it does not rain. If it does, I believe that I will be living the good life under the umbrella of sobriety. Thank God.
*every word above is subject to change and is debatable.
Now I am going to have another cup of coffee. Very entertaining SRers. Thanks Oldselfagain!
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
I am enjoying all this talk about "belief." "Belief" as related to theism has wreaked more havoc and caused more violence on our planet than any other cause since the dawn of humanity. Yet it is usually viewed as something benevolent, if not benign.
Perhaps a better word when considering recovery would be "conviction." I have a conviction that I can control my actions, but that can unfortunately be overridden at times under the right set of circumstances. So far, my "conviction" has not been overridden for a good many years, and I do not drink any more.
I do believe that some alcoholics and addicts that never become clean and sober have developed a "disability conviction."
That is not a phrase of my design, although I like it. The term was coined some time ago when referring to people who had healed enough after spinal cord injury to walk again, yet were unable to do so because they believed they could not. More recently, the term is applied to "malingerers" in medical rehab despite the cause. (See: Raichle KA, Hanley M, Jensen MP, Cardenas DD. Cognitions, coping, and social environment predict adjustment to pain in spinal cord injury. J Pain. 2007;8(9):718-29.)
Semantics? Maybe. But I take a non-theistic view of most things in life and it works better for me.
Perhaps a better word when considering recovery would be "conviction." I have a conviction that I can control my actions, but that can unfortunately be overridden at times under the right set of circumstances. So far, my "conviction" has not been overridden for a good many years, and I do not drink any more.
I do believe that some alcoholics and addicts that never become clean and sober have developed a "disability conviction."
That is not a phrase of my design, although I like it. The term was coined some time ago when referring to people who had healed enough after spinal cord injury to walk again, yet were unable to do so because they believed they could not. More recently, the term is applied to "malingerers" in medical rehab despite the cause. (See: Raichle KA, Hanley M, Jensen MP, Cardenas DD. Cognitions, coping, and social environment predict adjustment to pain in spinal cord injury. J Pain. 2007;8(9):718-29.)
Semantics? Maybe. But I take a non-theistic view of most things in life and it works better for me.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
For me, staying sober is my only free choice within my alcoholism parameters. Getting sober, not so much. First I had to quit drinking to even consider what the hell sobriety was or wasn't. I only quit because when my death (suicide) by drinking was coming fast like a freight train unstoppable and out of control I chose life, but even then, I had to have the 24/7 care of a rehab to get my sober legs, so to speak. Without fellowship and service help from others of my ilk, I would have died a drunken hot mess on the streets. So really, I didn't care at all about sobriety for the first few weeks, and when I finally did, I took off like a friggin' rocket with all the help and opportunities around me 24/7. I graduated in 3 months and so on and so on here I am sober 30+ years later.
So I didn't choose sobriety, it was simply and still is, a means to an end for me to stay alive as a recovered alcoholic drug addict so as to go on with my journey. Its like a road map for me to follow to get from there to here. Here to there works too, lol.
I did choose to quit however, just like I chose to drink. Did both for my own selfish reasons. Somewhere in all that process though I had loss of empowerment of my choices, and so this required a revolution of my psyche to get on with living. So I did that too. Again, because that was what my experience at that point was telling me to go with. With my results in hand today, it is abundantly clear I made the right choices back when for me.
Sobriety is just an answer for my alcoholism. This answer requires spiritual responsibilities as well, so I have these as well. Sobriety itself is not the best thing going in my life, just like getting drunk wasn't. After decades of sobriety, a guy walks to a different drum, yeah? I'm not as green today as I was those first few years of sobriety, lol. Freedom of self, and the where-with-all to enjoy such is the best thing going on in my life with wife, friends, and family. There is more to life than sobriety. Sobriety is an absolutely required gateway and not itself a destination for me.
Its interesting for me these discussions, as I can see myself in many ways in all of the contributors to this thread on choices. Not that I agree or disagree, but that I can relate in my own way, even if our paths ever only cross on these forums.
So I didn't choose sobriety, it was simply and still is, a means to an end for me to stay alive as a recovered alcoholic drug addict so as to go on with my journey. Its like a road map for me to follow to get from there to here. Here to there works too, lol.
I did choose to quit however, just like I chose to drink. Did both for my own selfish reasons. Somewhere in all that process though I had loss of empowerment of my choices, and so this required a revolution of my psyche to get on with living. So I did that too. Again, because that was what my experience at that point was telling me to go with. With my results in hand today, it is abundantly clear I made the right choices back when for me.
Sobriety is just an answer for my alcoholism. This answer requires spiritual responsibilities as well, so I have these as well. Sobriety itself is not the best thing going in my life, just like getting drunk wasn't. After decades of sobriety, a guy walks to a different drum, yeah? I'm not as green today as I was those first few years of sobriety, lol. Freedom of self, and the where-with-all to enjoy such is the best thing going on in my life with wife, friends, and family. There is more to life than sobriety. Sobriety is an absolutely required gateway and not itself a destination for me.
Its interesting for me these discussions, as I can see myself in many ways in all of the contributors to this thread on choices. Not that I agree or disagree, but that I can relate in my own way, even if our paths ever only cross on these forums.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
I wouldn't say it's a comfort...no. my beliefs that aren't formed from logic or science...my spiritual beliefs... are a direct result from my experiences..not blind faith. i do have respect for people that can have blind faith...but i question whether that is really blind...have they had spiritual experiences? something they can't put into words.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Originally Posted by boleo
The experience that can be talked about is not the true experience. Those that say a certain type of experience does not exist, are really expressing an opinion about an experience that they have not yet had.
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Originally Posted by Boleo
The experience that can be talked about is not the true experience. Those that say a certain type of experience does not exist, are really expressing an opinion about an experience that they have not yet had.
To say a talked about experience lacks veracity simply because it is put too words seems a fantastical point of view? I'm all for experiences being difficult to describe to others, but certainly a mutual understanding can be accomplished nonetheless even if the sensations of the actual experiences are not transferred.
We are all human after all, and so this creates common ground between us all by birthright if nothing else. We are more alike than we are different I suggest.
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Originally Posted by Boleo
The experience that can be talked about is not the true experience. Those that say a certain type of experience does not exist, are really expressing an opinion about an experience that they have not yet had.
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Originally Posted by Boleo
The Spiritual Realm is under no obligation to make sense.
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