Mentium

Desypete, I'm so sorry to hear about your sad loss - sad hardly says it - your terrible loss. I don't have a lot to teach anyone as I am still new to AA, but I am an atheist and I still attend. I am open about my lack of belief in what I think of as superstitious ideas and I join in the bits that make sense and ignore the bits that don't. My 'higher power' is the group I attend, which I find inspirational.

I have a sort of informal sponsor and when I discussed all of this with him recently he reminded me that the only requirement to be in AA is the desire to stop drinking. All the rest is 'suggested' as you know better than I.

If you are attending meetings as part of ensuring that you don't drink that is all you need to justify it for - to anyone.

desypete

thanks for you post yeahgr8
its simple for me if i dont even try to fight myself over the question of god as i now finally accept there isn't one i know this is hard for god believers to understand, the spiritual experience in the appendies p567 can explain it to you better than i can
they say if you dont believe in god then put another o in it and use good.
when i first came to aa on my first trip into aa i was told i needed to find god otherwise i will drink again that scared me to death and its simply not true but i believed back then as i was new
so i went on a mission to find it going to bible classes reading the big book over and over again and quoting it in the aa meetings trying to show off my knowledge of the big book and also to impress the people who i thought needed to be impressed so i could fit in with them
its no wonder i only lasted 3 years and ended up running away from aa and some of its memebers who were just trying to be cult type figures in the fellowship i stayed sober or dry for almost 15 years on my own but in the end it got me and i ended up losing everything second time around and i came back into aa and was lucky enough to meet some of the wiser members instead of the fanatical ones
there i honestly learned to be honest face myself many of these wiser memebers also loved god but they never tried to ram it down my throat as they knew i would take off again see they knew me far better than i knew myself
so i learned about spiritual living and it works but only if i work it if i sit back and do nothing then i will get nothing
i will not change and i will still be a dry drunk whos only interest would be in controlling everything and everyone around him
thats why i am asking myself the question of trying to start a non god meeting in my area as i have to be sure its not me and my ism that is the driving force behind it
at one time i would of just done it without thinking but this time i need to know others feel the same and there is a need
i am so glad of aa traditions more so with trad 3 that clearly shows aa is not based on conformity and at the moment i feel even more that aa wants me to conform to a god and with what happend to my son i am sorry but it will never happen so i need to stay sober i need to keep working on me and i need other alcoholics and for me i need aa meetings as thats were the new comers go and thats the best thing i can ever see is a new comer to remind me just how far i have come and to remember just what that first drink will lead me to
i hope i make sense to you and thanks again
i must sound like a right advert for aa and i am sorry to anyone who takes offense or wishes i would shut up

desypete

thank you very much for your post mentium
your sponsor sounds wise as its true the only requirement for aa premiership is a desire to stop drinking and thats why i keep coming back to it i hope you can find your path in aa like i have with mine thanks

DoubleBarrel

There is some misunderstanding about what it means to be atheist. Atheism is not a belief system, nor is it a certainty that God doesn't exist. It simply means that based on the evidence available, there is no reason to believe that God exists. I don't believe in elves, fairies, or the Easter bunny for the same reasons. If I were ever to see an elf, I would adjust my worldview to accommodate my experience.
Generally it is being open minded and willing to take in new information. It is not dogmatic.

This philosophy is not contrary to AA, because AA does not require a faith in deity. In fact,many adherents of AA are mostly versed in the Buddhist tradition, which is atheistic in nature.

All that aa states is that we have a SPIRITUAL awakening, and that A POWER GREATER THAN OURSELVES COULD RELIEVE OUR ALCOHOLISM.

Certainly, AA as a group is a power greater than ourselves, as is nature, science, even the medical community. It is imperative as a recovering person to realize that while we may have the ILLUSION of control, we truly do not determine our destiny. To me, that is a spiritual awakening, learning our true and rightful place in the universe, and moving away from the EGO driven self will run amok that characterizes alcoholic thinking.

Acceptance comes from relinquishing the false idea of control, and peace from that acceptance.

I am truly sorry for the loss that the OP has suffered. It is unimaginable, and I will not make any comments about how to handle it. I would simply say that each of us experiences grief in their own terms, and I cannot judge where he is at.

The program that you love, for all the reasons you loved it, is still there. Your perception has changed because of your painful experience.

The other people have their own truth, and the important thing is that all of us are trying to stay sober.

I don't know how to process such things, but I would hope that grief counseling can help move through the pain, if you are ready.

Gottalife

Much wisdom in this post except I always thought the agnostic was uncertain due to lack of proof, where the atheist claims proof there is no god. Myself I am gnostic, my faith is based in experience.

There is something about the op s post that takes some understanding. Before the tragic event, the op believed in the group as a higher power. However it could not help the circumstances, which of course bears out the saying "people have feet of clay" they will always let you down, and an AA group is only a group of people.

But rather than seeing the limits of the group hp approach, which by the way worked fine for me on a temporary basis, the op seems to be even more fervently in the athiest camp, almost is if the god that does not exist is at fault. To top it off the dynamic between the op and the group has changed. They no longer appear like a higher power, they say the wrong things, they have demonstrated the fallacy of humans, even in groups, being reliable higher powers. As a higher power they have proved inadequate.

Not sure that nature measures up well as a benevolent higher power. It destroyed the city in which I lived and continues to inflict misery on countless people through a relentless series of floods. I don't feel to good about nature.

The medical community, despite their best efforts, could not save my wife, nor could they keep me sober. They have skill I don't have, but so does a hairdresser. Neither have any particular power in the AA sense.

All of these concepts have let me down. Yet I am still sober. Perhaps because I hung on to Bills comment "I must turn in all things to the father of light that presides over us all, or Bobs admonition" Your Heavenly Father will never let you down." Both simple spiritual concepts that my prejudice about the god thing did not prevent me from accepting.

I heard recently of gravity as a higher power. Certainly it is an immutable law, totally reliable and predictable and benign, unless you are injured in a fall. But there is no spiritual benevolence about it, so it doesn't really make sense to me.

desypete

just to clear one thing up
my hp is aa not a group or a single person as was suggested

infact i never ever thought i would be typing this sort of thing about a hp as i never ever thought i would have one

but its true aa is my hp i base it on evidence i can see feel and touch

i can see aa works as all i did was go to meetings night and day and poured my heart out over the table and found a release inside me. my kids were in care when i first came around so my life was full of guilt and shame and fear that i will never have them in my life again a tall order to try to stay sober on
but aa give me that release and the members were always great with me they built me up and gave me so many things to try out when i was alone on my own they shown me so many practical things
i could go on and on about what aa gave me
but the point is this is happening everyday somewhere around the world in an aa meeting people are giving this kind of love for free and there expertize is free they dont want you money to help you which gets my vote
i see people change now in meetings as i have had the good fortune to watch them grow from when they first came in and that futher proves to me that aa is the vital key

i can feel something in an aa meeting that i can not feel anywhere else i can not explain it other than a warm peaceful type of feeling but i can feel it

so for me and its only for me aa is the key
so if someone wants to quote me a big book quote then remember where the big book came from, as it came from aa

if someone want to tell me god created aa or made bill w and dr bob meet well prove it and if you can not prove it to me then please dont make a comment as silly as that would be my reply

see for me and again its only for me this i can not believe in a god like i can with aa

the way i see it now after losing my son is this
i have alcoholism i need aa and the way of life to help me get better
aa can not cure cancer, it can cure drug addicts it can not do a lot of things it can only deal with alcoholics and more importantly there alcoholism

god can not cure cancer or cure anything and is not a loving thing either as people can not have it both ways here would a loving parent sit back and let there son die if they could save him ?
what sort of a loving being can sit and watch kids die in 3rd world country's if they have this power to remove things ? so you see with this sort of evidence around and more so after my own son had to suffer like he did i just think its a pile of fairy tales and wishful thinks on people
but thats not to say it doesnt work for people having a belief in god as cleary it does for some but sadly some think its all aa is about and its not aa is much much more hence i proudly say i am happy to know i dont have to believe in god to go to aa or be apart of aa

Soberpotamus

From my understanding of it, agnostic is one who holds the position that the existence of a deity is unknowable or at least currently unknowable. An atheist holds the position of non-belief in any deity. So, agnosticism is about knowledge whereas atheism and theism are about belief. Knowledge and belief. And they aren't mutually exclusive. For example, I'm agnostic atheist. I don't think the existence of god is knowable at this time (and reasonable to say, unknowable always) and I do not have faith or belief in a god.

awuh1

What stood out to me on your last post was this,
I can feel it too. I think the reason you feel this is that AA is full of folks that have had spiritual experiences. Spiritual experiences of all sorts. Some being of a “religious” nature, some not. But after all, that’s what the steps are designed to produce.

I have been a bit reluctant to post on this thread. I don’t wish to offend anyone, least of all you desypete. I felt the same way as you do for decades. That is, I did not know how a loving God could allow such suffering, such evil, to exist. For me it made a deity's existence quite impossible, and it sounds like the illness and loss of your son brought you to much the same place.

I have a very different perspective now. I won’t get into how it changed. I’ve done that in past posts. My point is that, like you, I never thought my view could possibly change. Yet it did.

You know, I felt that 'something' you refer to in the very first meeting that I ever attended and to this day I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I'm sure glad it's there.

All the best to you.

oural

Hi, desypete, I live on the Wirral, and would be interested in assisting in setting up a meeting with you , send me a pm if your interested and we could discuss it some more ?

Mentium

The chapter in question is extremely condescending and just suggests you will see the error of your ways in due course. Trouble is there's not a shred of evidence that there is a god. That's why I'm an atheist.

But I go to AA. And it seems to work - touch wood.

desypete

wow thats amazing another person in my area welcome my friend and i will of course get in touch with you

hmm this new group idea has grown a few legs as some of my friends in aa have expressed there interest also

will pm you and thanks

Joe Nerv

Hope this post makes sense, as I only have a half a story to share.

About 10 years a go, a woman who I was good friends with's 21 year old son threw himself in front of a train. She fell apart for a short while. She had not been the model mother, and was wracked with unthinkable amounts of guilt, grief, and pain. I was walking and talking with her one day some time after his death and the word god came out of my mouth. She went off, big time, saying she didn't ever want to hear anymore god BS. She said she put her son's life in gods hands, and this is what she got. She "turned it over" countless times, and he jumped in front of a train. She didn't want to hear anything about god. I got the message loud and clear, and what she said stuck with me. I still had to continue on my path, but her experience did for a while put a dent in my own faith.

Her and I drifted apart, but I run into her from time to time. She continued going to AA, she's in a happy relationship, and while I'm sure her son's death still holds a piece of her, I can tell she's come to a state of peace, maybe even happiness. But I'm not in her skin.

I'm really sorry for your loss, and can empathize as much as anyone might who hasn't experienced what you have. I'm sure the pain is unimaginable. If I were in your shoes I would probably do exactly as you are. I wouldn't throw the towel in on AA. I would try to put together a group that would fit my needs. I've been a part of invite only groups that met at members houses a few times. Only thing I might (but can't say for sure) do differently is pray for some sort of understanding. And let my anger out. I believe good can come from even the most horrible situations, but I know that's a lot easier to say from where I'm standing.

I wish you the best. Wish I could somehow connect you with my friend, but don't believe I even have her number any more. If you have any interest regarding that, let me know, and I'll give a shot at reaching out to her.

wkiml8116

First thing I learned in Therapy after my detox was the spirituality didn't need to be a Religious "God" per say . It could be any high power I chose it to be. I just needed to realize I couldn't do it alone, because that obviously didn't work in the past. If I wanted to go outside and ask a tree for help, than so be it, as long as that talk with the tree didn't allow me to drink that given day

Johnston

Can't the acquisition of new knowledge and a new attitude also be used to stay sober? These are things that don't need to be viewed as higher powers, any more than learning algebra as a means of becoming a better carpenter does.

The religious vs. spiritual argument misses this whole point of view I think. I need neither religion nor spirituality to stay sober. And I'm certainly not going to pray to new found knowledge. Reflect and meditate maybe, but not pray.

wkiml8116

the new knowledge and new attitude could very well be your "higher power" my point was you don't need prayer you just need to realize you can't do it on your own

Johnston

Thanks for clarifying. This would preclude step 11 however, as that tells me to seek to improve my conscious contact with a higher power through meditation and prayer. I can't pray to knowledge, as that would be deification.

DoubleBarrel

Belief in God is faith.

Not believing in God is not a belief. You cannot prove a negative.

There is a misnomer that Atheist think there is proof there is no God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Not believing requires no proof, or faith or anything else. It is not a system of belief, just an absence of it. Atheism is just like not believing in Santa Claus. There is no burden to prove he doesn't exist. If you claim he does, the burden of proof lies on the believer.

Aellyce

Desypete, I can't even begin to understand how it must have been for you... I've never been a parent...

The only thing I can share, re:
"its like your in love with somone but you know its never going to work so you have to walk away but you really dont want to"

I did the above. Repeatedly. Not as a parent, not as an AA member, but as a lover. It was the most difficult period of my life and for me emotionally harder than beating my previous eating disorders and alcoholism later (recently).

To be honest, based on how I feel now, and I'm just about to enter therapy so we'll see how that helps - I don't think I will ever fully be free from my past "affair". I escaped from it. but at the same time I'd arranged my next phase of life such that it has it ingrained in many ways, and I actually love my current reality, especially now sober for a few months... but that old love affair was also a creative force in my mind to get here, and I recognize the influence almost every day, still.

I think there are things, experiences, in our lives that just cannot be erased and will influence us forever, as long as we are alive.

My question to you: how could you possibly turn these "forces" creative and constructive for the future?

Bazerington

I can't say whether god exists, but I can say I'm sending you my love and one human to another it's about all I can do... I know when I've been in dark places someone's elses love and kindness has helped :-)

jdooner

Why does God have to be benevolent? There are terrible things that happen everyday around the World some to good people. Do you believe you are the only one that has lost an innocent child? Why do you know there is no God because your son died of cancer?

To me this seems to be much about your own difficulty to being open and perhaps stuck in that moment of time vs. continuing on your journey. I am not saying I would be any better in your shoes. I have sympathy and compassion for what you have endured, even if this does not come through my words here Desy. But, to me you might be attending meetings but not growing. Growth will require moving through the loss of your son and continuing to live, not survive. Perhaps there is a reason for all this and perhaps there is not - you have to be the one that wants to find out though.

Good luck!