RobbyRobot

Cool.

Its my experience (and opinion) that addiction ambivalence can be appreciated as an internalized experience. Internalized experiences have a moral quality, and moralities are open to moderation. By general definition, addictive ambivalence process and internalized experiences are separate experiences. I think totally out-of-the-box, and so my resolutions for challenges are uncommon.

Thanks for the feedback, gardendiva.

No worries.

courage2

I'm trying to lie low here but really have to interrupt. Caffeine is a mood-altering substance that causes physical dependence and withdrawal according to the ICD-10 (International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, Tenth Edition)(World Health Organization). Caffeine intoxication is recognized in the DSM-IV and ICD-10. Cow, you've told us all repeatedly that the caffeine-related symptoms inevitably cause you significant problems,at any dose level. I don't think you should try any longer to consider moderation an option for you with caffeine.

Robby, I'd like to hear about how you and others moderate your emotions. Cow and many of the rest of us have significant emotional problems that get floodlit as it were in early recovery, and managing those without using is a trick to be learned.

Cow

Sounds like you got some zen mojo working for you Robot, but for Cow, in over 40 year of addiction, starting at age 8 or 9, I has shown no evidence whatsoever (despite great effort) that I can moderate mood altering substances of choice. Also, problem is amount of caffeine needed to get relief from anhedonia is enough to create alcohol trigger, i.e., it start off as relief and transition to mania and compulsion to drink over a period of time after ingestion.

Also, I think caffeine ultimately contributing to my depression and fatigue. It cause obvious physical symptom that my body is overwhelm by it, such as muscle tremors and nerve twitches and tinglings, shortness of breath, bizarre sweating out my arm pits, light headedness, etc. So is not like caffeine is all bubbles and cakes except for being alcohol trigger. I think is not healthy for me.

Is interesting discussion, but to me is like playing with fire. And when Cow play with fire, sooner or later, fire end up playing with Cow.

dSober

Maybe I missed it Cow but I didn't see a response to my suggestion before of going to meetings to help with your anhedonia, and alcoholism of course.

Cow

I has gone to AA many time, one time for whole year straight. Despite it many fine quality and how much it has help others, it simply not for me. I actual hated it. Dreaded it! Also, they plies you with god, caffeine and sugar! Doh!

I never hear of 'social' anhedonia. I has anhedonia cuz my brains was blown out by massive meth OD, plus 30 years of alcoholism and PTSD from childhood horrors. My brain is not work properly. But, yes, I is searching for thing that may spark some bivalence in my brain, hence my Project Bivalence. I hoping that with abstinence and mindfulness to whatever tiny sparks of life I maybe feel, I can eventual feel better and even improve physiology of brain.

dSober

I can't comment on the physiology aspect; I'm not a doctor and I couldn't even spell anedonis a few weeks ago, lol.

I do feel I know a thing or two about AA however. First, they always have decaf. Second, the Higher Power concept is critical to its success. Although I accepted steps 1 & 2 almost immediately, it took me seven long, miserable, almost fatal years to buy into step 3. Once I did, the relief was almost instantaneous.

Besides step 3, what else did you "hate" about AA?

Btw, the last few months I've been trying to take the words hate and blame out of my thinking. I've found that extremely helpful.

dSober

On more btw, I rarely go to meetings anymore. I go once in a while to say hi and "check in" but I find that going more frequently doesn't really help me.

dSober

Sorry, one more... I'm currently working with a "Big Book thumper", I met here at SR, over the phone. He's taking me through the steps over the next few weeks. Although I feel I've been doing them all, to some extent, for quite some time, I feel I need to make another, more thorough pass now, so I am. Dang, a lot of commas in that one, lol.

Cow

I not want to go on about why I not like AA. It was just no for me, not helpful to me, not align with me, and I put off by a lot of what is core to they program, okay? I not try to avoid you questions, dSober, but in my many chapters of Diary of a Mad Cow, these subject has come up and been discuss a lot. And I has learn that it just NOT productive to talk pros and cons of AA, and is no need to, when I wholly agree is many, many people help by it. Nor has it ever been productive to discuss my lack of belief in god and/or higher power. Everybody has strong, personal opinion of these subjects and I think all should be respected, yes?

Dee74

I think a plurality of paths should be respected, yes.

D

dSober

Absolutely. I just meant to share my experience. Circumstances made me willing to believe.

Cow

Is okay, dSober, is good for you to share you experience. Whatever transformation you go through is obvious positive for you.

Cow is willing to believe anything for which there is a preponderance of evidence or own personal experience such that it create necessary conditions in my neocortex to manifest in mind state known as belief.

falseemperor

Cool story bro.

RobbyRobot

Thanks for the essential info, Cow. Sorry if I've somehow missed all this in the other threads. I'm obviously barking up the wrong tree, lol.

Okay, I had assumed caffeine had the lessor consequences than any other previously tried stimulant. I didn't realize caffeine was required in sufficient amounts for anhedronia relief to also trip you into drinking. I had again assumed you needed more and more caffeine before you risked drinking compulsions.

The other thing is I'm not ever suggesting in my posts here that the drug itself can or should be moderated - I'm only suggesting that the behaviors respective to the abuse of the caffeine could be moderated. This is a big difference in meaning. I'm the last to suggest we can successfully moderate how a drug physically effects an addict. Behaviors though? Absolutely!

Anyways. Sorry if I created some misunderstanding there.

Okay, so caffeine is absolutely off the table as a stimulant. Why in all that's good dear Cow do still reach for caffeine? like I said above, I had assumed it was the best choice you had after all the trials with other stimulants over the past two decades. Is there no better choice than caffeine?

I guess the other thing here then do you see yourself as an addict with anhedronia as secondary, or the other way around? I assumed the anhedronia was your paramount challenge, and your drinking was secondary.

In other words, I had assumed stimulants caused you to experience mania, and mania brought you to drinking. I was getting into working out a moderation of the mania itself... since you don't consider yourself an alcoholic, yeah? I mean you don't state you have alcoholism as an illness, like as I state for myself. My understanding is that you have no real opinion on your alcohol addiction either way, only that your in agreement abusing drugs and alcohol are obviously not good for you. Is this a correct understanding?

Hope we more on the same page now. Like I said, I needed to know more to have this make sense, and although I still stand by my ideas on moderating behaviors with respect to mania, I no longer have any ideas or suggestions on ideal stimulants to use to ease your anhedronia.

RobbyRobot

Moderation of emotions is something we all do for ourselves daily, some better than others, but there it is for any of us. I was more getting at re-directing the energies of internal conflicts and struggles into a positive channel so as to create changes in selected behaviors.

Emotional problems are by description highly subjective, and what I have adapted as a working solution may not easily be translated to others. I can talk about the mechanics of my challenges and my successes with those same challenges, but again our experiences and purposes will certainly have variance.

For example, I don't "do problems" I frame my so-called "problems" as challenges, and so in this manner, most opportunities for failure are ideally mitigated by definition, since challenges can be scaled while problems either are or they are not. So just having this working attitude gives me momentum when I own my responsibilities for my challenges.

The other thing with this is my alcoholism as an illness is not itself a behavior. I certainly have had behaviors as a direct result of my drinking, but my drinking itself was caused by an illness, and so, now that I am recovered from my alcoholism, I no longer have to deal with any behaviors around my past drinking because of course I don't drink since I'm recovered.

So....

I myself didn't drink because of troubled or unresolved emotional "problems" - I drank because I wanted to be drunk. I wanted to be drunk because my life wasn't worth living as it was, and it wasn't worth living because I was drunk, okay? Seems simplistic, eh?!

I didn't drink because I was troubled over polio, or being schizo, or anything else. I drank to be drunk. Period. I drank for the effect and no thing less. I wanted to be elsewhere in my world, and drunkenness was my train ride out into crazy land. When I tried to quit and I failed at quitting, I was totally surprised I couldn't just stay quit. Sure I could quit for a short time, but I always went back out. That is until I accepted I had alcoholism illness proper. That acceptance gave me a foundation to dis-associate myself from my past drinking while still taking responsibility for my no longer drinking in the present or any time in the future. This finally helped me stay quit. Been working for decades now using various means to help me stay quit.

Emotions for me are all experienced on a continuum of past and present. Future emotions cannot be felt by me because the future is all about probabilities. So for future emotions all I can do is imagine. Although I enjoy imagination as a real resource, I don't forget its also just in my head, lol. Fear for me is a primal emotion, and as such I respect my fears but I don't entertain them as concrete evidence to inform me emotionally.

I hope I'm not getting to far out there in my subjectivity, lol.

The trick to learn how not to have emotions drag you back into drinking is to simply uncouple yourself from the idea that you drank to resolve emotional problems is what I suggest you do.

It can initially be difficult to not "do problems" but nonetheless its doable to translate such difficulties into managed challenges that can than be scaled as desired more or less...

Snarkbunny, I hope this helps answer what your essentially asking from me.

BackToSquareOne

What I have noticed with depression and anxiety is that you can think you have finally gotten those things under control and like a prisoner breaking out of jail they seem to break free from remission and reenter your psyche. I wonder if some of us will ever completely beat all of these things.

I don't like to admit failure but if I can keep a small depression from turning into a full blown episode, then maby thats the best I could do. It's very important to me to know what works in keeping small depressions from gaining momentum. Project Bivolance could be also about figuring out if there are acceptable levals of ambivolance in certain things. (Depression itself for me.) Maybe not just yess or no, but sometimes maybe so. I guess the tricky part would be in deciding what things qualify for the "Maybe So" seal of approval.

dSober

One more thing then I'll give it a rest; for a while anyway.

I've come to realize that over intellectualizing my alcoholism was keeping me drunk. K.I.S.S. got me sober.

Cow

Who you calling intellectual, bitch! I loves my dSober.

Robot, I total has opinion on my alcoholism, as well as my other addictions: THEY SUCK AND HAS RUIN MY FREAKING LIFE. Just because anhednoia create a steady state of apathy which make it hard to DO anything about anything, it does no change my awareness of this fact.

I has always use stimulant drugs and alcohol concomitantly. After my meth OD, when I not using stimulant street drug anymore, I guess I stop consider that a problem, until I more recently realize, I just using caffeine as replacement.

I not sure what 'underneath' my addictions, they start too early for me to remember 'original' personality, and before that was molestation and PTSD and eating disorders and cutting, so who the hell know who I is under all that. But I look like "normal" kid in younger pictures. God only know what under there now, but as everybody point out, is probable time to find out.

Puma, I never should has use word ambivalence for my project, cuz though that is part of it, real problem of anhedonia is apathy. I needs to find way to care enough to care. Maybe I should change to Project Give A Crap!

Gilmer

Why not just make a random decision to do it, whether you give a crap or not? Just draw a line in the sand, just like you make a decision to run for president of your HOA.

Gilmer

You are putting the cart before the horse by trying to care first.