Dee74

I didn't resist it for many years.

When I finally did it was because I didn't want to die that way - several close health shaves convinced me that my demise looked like a likely outcome.

I decided I had things left to do
I'm fine now. Never normal tho

I'm not ecstatic or annoyingly positive, but I'm better than I've ever been - lots of joy and enthusiasm for living...and some serenity too

courage2

I was a user & drunk for more than 35 years. I didn't know normal, & don't expect to know normal, ever.

Unless you're desperate to get out from under your addiction, I don't think you can successfully resist the urges to relieve the withdrawal symptoms, which go on psychologically long after the major physical dependence is over.

I do think stimulants are especially hard to quit. I was addicted to speed when I was young, and the only way I got off it was to hide out alone in a cabin in the woods for a month. I was staying up nights with a butcher knife in my lap out of paranoia about stalkers in the woods, and I was drinking a lot and eating very little, but I did kick that particular substance.

After that for a long time, stimulants of any kind had a very intense effect on me. Oddly, now, like 30 years later, the substance I'm most likely to fantasize about is cocaine.

Cow

I not want to die. I atheist, so what the point. But nor does I have any idea what I do if I not die. I absent of any passions or motivations.

I did go to my cabin in woods, Snarkbunny ...but is Safeways in town and they unfortunate is stock full of alcohols and Starbucks. I not paranoid when manic, I high and hyper social, and get lot of thing done, and feel more creative, so it still has lot of allure to me.

Yes, stimulant is key to quitting. If I not do stimulant, I would no think very much about alcohols. Stimulant in like "on" switch to think intensely about drinking. For me, is package deal. I has white knuckle not drink before while still going mad on stimulant and everybody was "Yay! You not drinking!" But no, was still total not healthy situation and was drunken disaster waiting to happen.

courage2

I get it why your cabin didn't work. When I was in my cabin I didn't know how to drive -- I had to canoe into town to get food, or swim and carry stuff back wrapped in a towel on my head. And though there were sometimes people around who gave me drugs and liquor, I was cut off from my speed connection. So the isolation method worked for me then.

I didn't quit speed because I wanted to quit -- I was in denial about that addiction for a long time. I got off speed because my main drug connection at that time was moving into heroin and I was frightened into dropping the connection.

If that hadn't been the case, I'm not sure what would have made me stop. In fact, I was pretty close to the heroin -- that's why I made a physical run, because anything else and I would have followed my connection's path, which did lead her to a needle.

I'm just rambling. I guess I'm thinking, what's at risk for you with using caffeine addictively? For me, with speed it was fear of heroin that got me to stop, and even then there was a lot of denial and continued use of other substances. With alcohol, it was fear of death by suicide. What's the negative consequence of you continuing to take caffeine the way you do?

PS -- re this I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you can get straight, ideas will come.

betterlate

Like you, I eventually realized that caffeine is a powerful mood and energy altering drug and I can't handle it, mostly because it makes me crave the sedation of alchohol to a terrific degree. I'm always a little amused by the coffee which is featured front-and-center at many AA meetings, but my mind is not their mind and if they can handle it, fine. I can't.

Once in a while I can get away with a cup of Irish Breakfast tea in an emergency. But if I drink even a quarter cup of the STRONG coffee that my wife drinks an entire pot of every day with no ill effects for her, I will be headed for trouble.

The US working world runs on caffeine, no doubt about it. Many, many people would be offended by the very suggestion that they are taking a "drug" when they have their Starbucks. Coffee is everywhere and news stories about how healthy and good-for-you it is are regular features. For many people, coffee is simply the air they breathe all day.

But it isn't for us, is it, Cow?

Lenina

I do know caffeine doesn't work well for me. I do decaf Nescafé at home and only the one. it's interesting how we all react differently to different substances. I can't handle anything that make me feel "speedy"

So dear Cow, can you stand ploopy a long time? I think you might be able to. maybe plan a project that requires more slog than pop?

love from Lenina

Cow

Yes, for Cow, caffeine is might as well be line of meth. Is very hard to accept this, cuz teas and coffees is univeral promoted as ancient healthy elixirs chock full of goodness. And yes, anywhere I ever go to have counsel for alcohol, I has been offer unlimited caffeine! And I does LOVE coffee and tea. LOVE. Like I love the fine wine. I love specific coffee bean (Mexican Altura, Mocha Java, Peaberry, Kona) and I love Indian Assam Black tea. Is food of Gods to me. So innocent. So natural. And so hard to watch just about everybody else savor these simple everyday pleasure that forbidden to you. Especially when you brain crying out for them!

Lenina, yes, can you finds me job that require slog and ploop, and some acerbic sarcasm!

Lenina

Cow, I shall ruminate on it and see what I can come up with...probably low pay and someone else gets the credit.

XXOO. Lenina

BackToSquareOne

It's a real balancing act isn't it cow? Whenever I tried to give up too many things at once I was faced with the paradox of which is worse, depression or still using some of those things. Depression really complicates things. Wouldn't it be great if you could just dump all that stuff and everything was just fine and dandy? I kind of got to fine but never dandy.

Maybe we need more of a Que Sera Sera, roll with the flow kind of thing going on. Projecting into the future was something I was good at, you kind of seem to do that also. Have a good night Cow and don't worry about anything unless it kills you and eats you. Stay awesome!

Lenina

[QUOTE=BackToSquareOne;4653563. Have a good night Cow and don't worry about anything unless it kills you and eats you. Stay awesome![/QUOTE]

um, Square? Is that a giant flesh-eating puma in your avatar?

Love from Lenina

BackToSquareOne

Tried a cat but I wanted something bigger. Good catch, I never would have thought of that!

RobbyRobot

Hmm. You know what? I think the writing is on the wall that realistic levels of coffee and tea will provide for you a gateway journey out of your alcoholism troubles. Surprised?

Cow, explain to me why you can't manage a caffeine stimulant without tripping into alcohol? Why isn't some level of mania tolerable? I don't prefer or want the science version explained out to me, thanks. Rather, I'm seeking why you personally can't tolerate a managed level of mania?

Is it the management itself which is intolerable? Or is it the differences between experiencing nothing and experiencing escalating levels of mania intensity?

Your alcoholism can be put behind you if you can have a sufficient change in your psyche that can be maintained in your everyday life.

Let's troubleshoot why mania is presently intolerable to you with respect to your alcoholic drinking, yeah?

Cow

Hi Robot! I see you is running you troubleshooting software. Okay.

Well, first of all, I not able to manage caffeine. I escalates. Why? Cuz I addict! And if little stimulation feel good, more might feel better! And plus also, as days go by, you need more and more stimulant to get same effect. I has try before to stick to just tiny cup of coffee or tea, but soon enough, I drinking 2 or 3 of those or big mug or multiple Diet Pepsi.

Mania lead to drinking for 2 reason: Either is good mania, where I feeling high and almost pleasant, which lead to extreme desire to get party started, like back in day, when just right combo of uppers and booze would lead to awesome euphoria. Sometime I can almost recreates this. Granted, it only last few brief minutes before it all go to hell, but is only euphoria I ever experiences, so I always gonna chase that dragon.

But much more often, mania is not good mania. It feel alive at first, but it quickly roll past pleasant to uncomfortable speedy and frantic. Intense feeling of not knowing what to do with self and brain just spinning. Then is strong compulsion for booze to bring things down.

In conclusion, no matter how many thousand of time I has convince self I can somehow regulate stimulant, all roads lead back to booze.


Hi Puma, please no eats me! I a dairy cow, okay? I wants fine and dandy! Yes I know, I greedy. But I not want my story to be like, well, my life suck for 50 year, then it was fine, then I die. I think I deserves some small measure of dandy in there, somewhere.

Lenina

((((Cow)))) you do deserve dandy in your life. We just need to help you find the right path to be peaceful while embracing and practicing total abstention from alcohol and drugs and stimulatants.

The heat is supposed to break today so maybe we can cool off a bit. I have some herbal non caffeine infusions I like. Check out the caffeine free ones or see about just plain water.

Have a good day, my friend. I'll be around!

Love from Lenina

RobbyRobot

You need an attitude change on how addiction ambivalence plays within your lifestyle, imo. I can already hear you not agreeing, lol. Nonetheless, your not just another garden variety addict. You have additional responsibilities and consequences which need to be accounted and dove-tailed into a sustainable sober lifestyle. Playing the addict card won't account for what is all in play here. I do sympathize and I have some limited empathy for your anhedonia, but let's get on the same page at least agreeing your not just an addict here failing at getting sobriety working for you purely from the realities of addiction ambivalence in process. My own responsibilities with being schizo demanded some out-of-the-box solutions to my chronic alcoholism, or else I would never be able to maintain an ongoing and successful sober lifestyle. Normal solutions wont never ever work for you, Cow. Did I say never?

Desires can be moderated and changed out for new and better informed resolutions to those same desires. Things can't stay the same if you want change. Nothing changes if nothing changes, as we all know first hand. Desires are totally changeable, yeah?

Boleo

That's what I am seeing as well in most of your replies going back over a year now. You ask for advice. You thank people for their advice and then
you come up with an excuse for not taking their advice (Yah But...).

Lenina

Cow, I saw some ideas for infused water. These might work for you without over exciting your synapses. I guess it's synapses.....anyway, get some nice still water and put it in a pitcher. you can add sliced fruits. might be good to bruise the fruits a bit so the favors are released. you can add mint or lemon or other herbs for flavorings too.

I am going to make a batch of these for my Hubs and me. have you ever frozen fruit juices? If you put them in the ice cube trays in makes a nice flavor for the water too.

love from Lenina

courage2

Although I'm sure there are subtleties here that I'm missing, I live with someone schooled by Jesuits and I mistrust subtle arguments. Addiction is addiction. There's physical addiction which is relatively easy to end through painful but effective detox. Then there's psychological addiction. All addicts can only deal with either one through constant maintenance on their substance(s), or through abstinence. Maintenance does not work for many sustances because of increasing tolerance, which leads to increased use, which leads to various negative consequences. If I start to consider myself as a special case of addiction, I feed my addictive narcissism, and create rationales to treat other people as lesser than. Even if I don't drink with this mentality, I become a jerk.

Cow, you sound like you have a pretty good understanding of the negative consequences of caffeine use! Yes, you still dream of the perfect mix -- for me, I love benzos/barbituates and alcohol on top of speed. Yeah, well, we spoiled it for ourselves, didn't we? Wrecked that particular hotel suite. Now we're banned from Vegas.

So quit the caffeine completely and see what happens. Is there somebody you can invite to stay with you at your place to keep you company while you're drooling on the couch?

Cow

Yes, you guys is right, for all my desperations, I does have substantial underlying ambivalence about my addictions, even about my own survival and suffering. But ambivalence is pretty much how anhedonics/depressives roll. We need bivalence! I not know how to create bivalence!

I has only one wishful desire: to feel better. My programming toward this end not getting me anywhere, of course. Is bad programming. Old programming. Full of fatal errors and infinite loops. I must change my programming! But how does I change programming from inside the program, especially when system has built-in ambivalence firewall?! I think you making good point, Robot. Breaking through ambivalence may be big key to success. This is my task, yes? I calling it: Project Bivalence!

Snarkbunny, yes, I was high roller, too. Blew it out. I wreck the suite, burn that bitch down, then hurl self out window. I ban from Vegas, baby. But I still trying to get back, like stubborn homing pigeon.

Lenina, I hypoglycemic and not drink fruit juices. Sometime I has water with cucumber slice in it. Is nice. Lot of people suggest I drink other hot beverage in morning to replaces coffee or tea, but since I use substances for effect, not ritual, I has never find this satisfying.

RobbyRobot

Alright, Cow. Yes, i'm making a good point. Let's see what we can do with revisiting tolerance and ambivalence process in addiction when applied differently with respect to your personal challenges and lifestyle choices.

Not surprising of course, not everyone will be in agreement in this ongoing discussion. When one walks the road less travelled, sometimes the walk is a bit lonely, and that's okay, life is nothing if not diverse, lol. As long as we share real experience the discussion is always worth the effort, imo.

So... we do best when we change "old programing" out for new at a foundational level so as to bring lasting change into our new and improved lifestyle. Were not seeking temp relief, so we need to work at a deep level within the psyche. Old ideas are rigorously tested, and when they fail, they are dropped out making room for new thinking and then onto better informed decisions which then empower more real responsibilities and change happens. As we progress, change brings more change, and the whole thing begins to take on a purpose of its own, a new existence that takes advantage of the loop-holes inherent in addiction ambivalence no less.

Yeah, loop-holes.
Sweeet, eh?!

Who knew?