seek

Hello - I have a young alcoholic relative. I was in Alanon for many years. The family supported the relative through rehab, sober living, etc. The relative relapsed, over and over again.

During the course of a couple of years, I did everything I could do to be supportive. I didn't realize I was believing lies because I wanted to believe the person wanted sobriety and was working on that. I am now in a place where I can look back with more clarity and see what was really going on. I was blinded at the time by my love for the person and my belief that they wanted recovery.

The person is in rehab again. Most of the family has disintegrated due to the stress that we endured for a long time.

Here are some questions (and pardon me if I seem angry or frustrated or resentful or sad . . . not having a great day today):

1) Is it acceptable to ever tell the alcoholic the truth (i.e., things they don't want to hear). What I mean is that before, I was always polite, believed all of the lies, never challenged anything (because, honestly, to do so would have started a fight) . . . I was told once in a group therapy when I was crying over some of the stuff that happened that I was "putting my feelings on the alcoholic." That really confused me because I was affected by what they did and was telling them MY feelings, which were painful. I also have a philosophical belief that we are all connected. After that dressing down, I never expressed my true feelings to the person for fear of "putting my feelings on them." I am tired of lying to make them feel better. You can't really have an honest relationship when either party is lying.

2) Is it futile to say anything that you think could possibly have a positive impact on their thinking? I know "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it," but I have also heard some people say that there was a comment that really stuck with them and got them to really wake up. I have something I want to say along those lines, but don't know if there is any point. In the past, as part of my effort at being supportive, I would send positive sentiments, etc. to them when they were "away." It seems like nothing I have ever said or done has had any impact (and yes, I do have some resentment about this, since I helped raise the person and went out of my way to be a positive influence on their life. I know it is egocentric of me to feel bad about this, but I do).

3) Does the alcoholic have any idea the impact on the family? I sincerely wonder about this. It does not seem as if there is any awareness of others. I can understand this from the vantage point that when you are really sick and really in your "disease" no one else matters, but when you look around and see the effects, do you then notice, or does it all just go over your head?

4) If the person ever makes amends to you, are you allowed to say anything? Or are you just supposed to keep your thoughts to yourself?

Thank you!

biminiblue

I wish someone in my family had confronted me about my drinking. Either they didn't really know (possible) or they were unsure of how to address it.

From my alcoholic view at the time, no one cared about me enough to address it. However, I didn't show how bad it was to them, I lived far away and didn't drink to excess around them. So maybe they really had no idea. I was incommunicado for most of twenty years, though. In hindsight, I created that space as much as they did.

I think your truth is valid. You have a right to express how the A's actions have affected you, to a point. If you are trying to get even, then no. It's more about a sincere wish for healing for all.

As far as their amends, part of the deal is they are to listen to your reply without argument or judgment. So yes, you reply with your truth if you feel a need to do so, but in the end, it is about forgiving.

Mountainmanbob

Always best for all the alcoholic and non alcoholic to be truthful with each other

MM

seek

Thank you for your responses.

I am seriously confused about the "correct" protocols.

It seems that there is a power dynamic where the one who is "acting out" has the power - or at least that is how it has played out in my relationship with this person. I am struggling to not be a victim to them. I feel torn by my love for this person - I so want them to be healthy and I have no control over that.

Because of the fact that I believed lies, I don't trust them (which is appropriate), but worse, I don't trust myself in relationship to them - it feels like my love for them is causing the problem. If they were acting out and I didn't love them, I wouldn't care - but because I love and care for them, I feel trapped. I have been working on this for a long time.

I dread hearing from them because I don't want to be lied to or be asked for anything.

Anyway, thank you again for your responses. I truly appreciate it.

tornrealization

It sounds as though your trust was broken and you want what's best but without the trust van you give it?

That's my take on your post. I'm an alcoholic.

1. Tell the truth. Rainbows and unicorns is not what this is about. It is also for you and the alcoholic. Even if they don't listen you should be true to yourself.

2. It isn't futile. They may not listen now, but remember. Just don't expect results. I find it is taking a mountain of moments to help me get sober. That includes the one time my brother said something a year ago that didn't seem to matter.

3. Some do and some don't. I was shocked to hear my family knew my booze problem. Not sure they were impacted, my secrets. I'm working this question.

4. I absolutely want truthfulness for amends. Just because I got sober doesn't erase my wrongs. The best thing is to hope for is relationships heal with trust, sobriety and honesty. I have to take the good with the bad.

seek

Thank you. I am getting so much out of your responses. Another alcoholic once told me the "co-dependent" (I don't really buy into that concept, because I think we are all interdependent on each other, but I digress) - anyway, they said they were taught that the "co-dependents" are "the enemy." It was a joke and it was very funny. If you go to an Alanon meeting, people are often depressed and crying, but an AA meeting is uplifting and the people are more "fun." (All generalities, but there is some truth in there). The "co-dependents" focus on the problem and the alcoholics, on the solution (again, not trying to pick a fight with anyone - it's just my warped humor).

So the "rainbows and unicorns" thing - yeah, I was doing that and so was the alcoholic (in relationship to me). One of the reasons I was doing it was because the person is volatile and explosive and I didn't want to argue. It was a way I COULD relate to them without totally stressing myself out (and even still, most encounters were stressful due to the impulsiveness and volatility).

I also have a fear of triggering them to drink (I know it would not be "my fault," per se, but I could not live with myself if I thought that something I said upset them and triggered them to drink. I am not sure how to deal with this particular problem I have).

The person seems "dangerous" to me because their actions are so unpredictable and the track record has been much chaos - especially lately. I guess I have PTSD in relationship to this issue and the particular person. I have thought of moving to China (not kidding - I know "pulling a geographic" wouldn't help, but I have fantasies of being able to live in peace without stepping on land mines). I know I am messed up

tornrealization

Seek your latest post worries me. My interpretation on the first post was discovery about your role in an alcoholics life. My interpretation on your recent post is about loving someone who is possibly a violent drinker where you need to leave.

Don't ever allow someone to blame you for their drinking. It's an excuse. You sound like you've been there through thick and thin and yes co dependency is a real thing.

Just don't let that person let you think you are the reason they drink. Nobody makes us drink. We have problems, but it is our choice.

seek

Dear Tornrealization:

The person is immature and volatile.

It's more about me and my worries about triggering them - the person has never accused me of that, but since anything can set them off, I sometimes find myself walking on eggshells.

I don't debate co-dependency - I know the idea works for most people. My thinking on the subject is a little different.

I am trying to figure out how not to be a victim, mostly.

Those questions I asked initially were kind of burning in my skull. I had no idea what the "proper" (i.e., most helpful or least damaging or healthiest) responses might be. Since there is little crossover between "co-dependents" and alcoholics (in meetings and on this board), I was just really curious.

I do think with the standard definitions, that "co-dependents" get a bad rap and that the thinking is a little limited in that many alcoholics are also "co-dependent" but not in the "enabling," "rescuing" senses.

I do believe enabling and rescuing are real things that do happen, and that these behaviors are detrimental to all involved. I just think human beings are so complex and there are a myriad of factors that contribute to behaviors.

I do have one more question:

5. If you suspect the person is drinking to self-medicate anxiety, is it helpful to suggest that? Or are you just supposed to let them figure it out themselves? I have thought that for a long time, but the politics of recovery are such that it seems that you are supposed to keep your thoughts to yourself.

tornrealization

Seek, answer to number five, there isn't one. If you talk to an alcoholic trying to reach them there is no answer. It is up to them to listen or not.

I feel you are looking for answers to questions that can't be answered. I am sorry I can't help.

JustODAAT

I think the age of the person matters a lot. An alcoholic in late adolescence (20s, some people say to 30) can be even more self centered than an alcoholic at any age.

I have been on both sides of this. My mother is an alcoholic, never acknowledged to this day, despite getting a cancer directly related to it. I don't think she cares if she has an effect on others in the family. She is a person who always sees herself as the victim, as under appreciated and under acknowledged, and justifies her self centeredness that way. My whole life growing up was about walking on egg shells around her.

I am an alcoholic. I am highly motivated by not wanting to affect my children the way my mother affected me. BUT it took me a while to get there. I was very me-oriented through my 30s, because I "deserved" to drink or so I told myself. My husband did say stuff, but it wasn't until I did some serious soul searching and grew up that I got sober.

Sadly, both sides (being the family member affected and being the alcoholic affecting the family) make me think you can't tell an alcoholic much and count on it having an effect. I'm sorry.

biminiblue

Most alcoholics feel they need alcohol to deal with life. After the initial party phase of drinking, anxiety sets in because the depressant effects of alcohol have worn off and that leaves the central nervous system in a state of excitability. It is the body trying to find an equilibrium after the introduction of the depressant. It feels like extreme anxiety. THe drinker knows that the alcohol will quiet the symptoms.

Thus begins the cycle.


It is a chicken or egg question. The alcohol is probably causing the anxiety.

karate

Ill add this - The drinker wont stop drinking until THEY are ready .

When will they be ready ?, That's the question.

Gottalife

On your questions 1-3 Alanon is a good organisation to help you with this. I believe they have a way for you to detach with love and live your own life and not get so knocked about by the alcoholism.

On question 4. Absolutely you can say what you like and what you feel. The alcoholic is there to make restitution to you, to clean his side of the street, to do what he can to put matters right. He is not to be concerned at the outcome, he should understand that the results are in yours and Gods hands.

Many of us believe that you are the best person to tell us how to best make amends. We know a remorseful mumbling that we are sorry does not go nearly far enough.It is entirely up to you whether you forgive him or not.

Amends may be some time off however, as he needs to work through some preparatory steps first in order to be fit to make amends.

The alcoholic that rushes this, especially those who make amends primarily to ease their own conscience, often come unstuck. The amends is about you, not them.

seek

Yes, for some reason, I ask questions that cannot be answered, often! But I am getting some insights, so thank you one and all!

JustODAAT - thanks for sharing both perspectives (about your mom and yourself). It is very helpful for me to hear these stories and perspectives regarding individual psychology and some of the thinking. It creates some hope to think maturity could possibly kick in at some point!

biminiblue - I helped raise this person and know their personality characteristics - they were very frightened growing up. I always knew I could make this person cry in seconds (didn't - just knew the fragility).

Karate - yes, what you say is true, true, true. I am just trying to figure out how not to be held hostage in the meantime. If you're married to an alcoholic, you can divorce them (and I would in a minute if they were creating the chaos this person has created). Ooops. I forgot. I actually did divorce one - I'm getting old, I had forgotten! But when it is a beloved family member (not one of those you could do without), it can be very difficult.

Thanks again.

Here's another question:

6. If an alcoholic is TERRIFIED of getting cancer or having a heart attack or getting some dreadful condition - and they go to the E.R. frequently, does it ever dawn on them that the booze is creating the very conditions they're freaked out about? I honestly don't think they could relate the two - what I am curious about is the thinking that accompanies such madness (I apologize if you think I am too analytical - I have been accused of that - but some of these questions play in my mind, and if I could latch onto some answer that made sense to me, it would be easier to dismiss the ruminating, which is what I am trying to do for myself).

seek

Thank you, Mike. Your post would not let me thank you for some reason.

I really do forgive the person already. I was just curious about the protocol. I never got any amends and supposedly the person has been through the steps a bunch of times. I was just wondering if it ever came to be, what the expectation for a response was on the other side. For me, the amends would be more about self-awareness and really caring that you hurt someone.

I was just thinking about the awareness part for myself. I said some really asinine things to my father a few year's ago. It took years for the realizations to surface, but when they did, I couldn't believe I had said the things and I wished he were still alive so I could apologize for my idiocy! I have spoken the amends out loud - and have also forgiven myself for saying such thoughtless things. I really am sorry.

I wouldn't want to hear any half-baked apologies that are done more for checking stuff off a list than from a real heartfelt place of remorse. I am not holding my breath to get any amends. I was just wondering what the expectations are of the person giving them. Thank you.

yeahgr8

The alcoholic needs enablers, someone who will put up with the BS, tell them how it will all work out in the end and deep down they are nice really even though they do horrible things.

If you don't want to be one of those enablers I suggest that you find a group for you or a course of action to help yourself and let them get to where they need to get to in order to consider recovery.

seek

Interesting. I had never heard, nor never considered that emotional support (being "nice" to someone) equated to enabling. Had no idea. We are told by rehabs, etc., that family support is important. In books on addiction ("Addict in the Family") they talk about how crucial family support is to sobriety.

Is it true that you are not supposed to be emotionally supportive for the best outcome for the alcoholic?

I know for my mental health, I must keep my distance. I am doing everything I can to "self-care."

Thanks.

JustODAAT

Seek: re question 6...It is amazing to me how everyone in my family (ok, maybe not my brother, but definitely my father and my mother) can say with a straight face they have "no idea" how my mother got her mouth cancer when everywhere I have seen makes a direct connection between heavy alcohol drinking and the cancer. Do not underestimate the power of denial from an alcoholic and a co-dependent.

nandm

"Here are some questions (and pardon me if I seem angry or frustrated or resentful or sad . . . not having a great day today):" Just my two cents but you have a lot of reason to feel frustrated, resentful, sad, and angry after having spent time with an active alcoholic as it is a very painful experience to go through. Don't be so hard on yourself. Allow yourself to have your feelings about this, it is okay as long as you don't allow those feelings to take control of the situation.

"1) Is it acceptable to ever tell the alcoholic the truth (i.e., things they don't want to hear). What I mean is that before, I was always polite, believed all of the lies, never challenged anything (because, honestly, to do so would have started a fight) . . . I was told once in a group therapy when I was crying over some of the stuff that happened that I was "putting my feelings on the alcoholic." That really confused me because I was affected by what they did and was telling them MY feelings, which were painful. I also have a philosophical belief that we are all connected. After that dressing down, I never expressed my true feelings to the person for fear of "putting my feelings on them." I am tired of lying to make them feel better. You can't really have an honest relationship when either party is lying."

I believe that honesty is essential with an alcoholic. Hiding the truth of their destruction only prolongs the pain for everyone involved. If it were not for my oldest daughter telling me the painful truth about how much my drinking was frightening her and hurting her I don't know that I would have quit before it killed me and did further damage to my family. Unfortunately it took her years to get the courage to stand up to me and tell me and even then it took me a few months to listen. Thank God she was persistent. My oldest daughter was only 16 when I finally realized that my drinking was just a slow suicide that not only was killing me but also those who loved me, like my daughter. It was her persistence and courage that helped me to see that. I have thanked God for her every day for the last 13 years of my sobriety.


"2) Is it futile to say anything that you think could possibly have a positive impact on their thinking? I know "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it," but I have also heard some people say that there was a comment that really stuck with them and got them to really wake up. I have something I want to say along those lines, but don't know if there is any point. In the past, as part of my effort at being supportive, I would send positive sentiments, etc. to them when they were "away." It seems like nothing I have ever said or done has had any impact (and yes, I do have some resentment about this, since I helped raise the person and went out of my way to be a positive influence on their life. I know it is egocentric of me to feel bad about this, but I do)."

I answered this in my answer to #1


"3) Does the alcoholic have any idea the impact on the family? I sincerely wonder about this. It does not seem as if there is any awareness of others. I can understand this from the vantage point that when you are really sick and really in your "disease" no one else matters, but when you look around and see the effects, do you then notice, or does it all just go over your head?"

Honestly as much as I hate to admit it, I was not able to see the damage my drinking was causing to my family until my daughter through her persistence made me see it. Ironically, I thought that I took good care of my family as I was a single mother of 3 children and I always kept a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, and food in their stomachs. What I missed in all that though was the emotional component of having a mother who is actually there with them instead of drunk off her behind anytime she was not at work.


"4) If the person ever makes amends to you, are you allowed to say anything? Or are you just supposed to keep your thoughts to yourself?"

An amends is about the person who the amends is being made to so definitely feel free to say whatever you need to say to feel better and clear the air. It helps me to know just how much destruction I caused with my drinking as it is a reminder of how much more destruction is waiting if I pick up a drink. For me it works as a deterrent.

seek

Thank you, nandm. You are very kind.

And thanks for sharing a little bit of your experience and your perceptions.

The real stories just somehow help me to fill in blank pieces that have kept me spinning.