Notices

I hate when people say it's a choice.

Old 04-19-2014, 09:08 AM
  # 121 (permalink)  
Recovered from Hopeless State
 
dSober's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
I just finished catching up and reading the posts after the one I was specifically addressing in my last post (was away for a while due to internet problems). I think now it addresses several. Cool, it'll save me some typing :-)
dSober is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 09:48 AM
  # 122 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
You know I really did not want to get into this. I would rather be happy then right. I am happy with my program and my sponsor BUT because this is a message board and others will come along that will read and perhaps gain insight into alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous I feel the burning desire.

Bill W wrote "Freedom Under God: The Choice is Ours

In this he talks about the choices we have. The quest for freedom and to obtain this freedom we have a choice.

Here are two extracted statements from that paper.

"In the quest for freedom we are given three choices. A rebellious refusal to work upon our glaring defects can be a ticket to destruction...."

"For most of us this last choice is really ours; we must never be blinded by the futile philosophy that we are just hapless victims of our inheritance, our life experiences and our surroundings - that these are the sole forces that make our decisions for us. This is not the road to freedom. We have to believe that we really can choose."

The BB says, Page 53 "God either is or he isn't, What was our choice to be?" I choose to believe he is. This is a choice

The BB stays, Page 44, "To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face." This a choice.

I have a choice, I can follow the path of sobriety using the AA program as my guide with my HP in the driver seat along with all the tools and people that have been gifts to me with a feeling of gratitude for every one of them. I can use all the gifts to give back as I was given with service work in my HG and reaching out to the newcomer.

If I consistently do all these things, if I am painstaking, I will never have to drink again.

Or

I can choose not to. It is really that simple, at least for me it is. I like simple.
I understand you would rather be happy than right.

You are in a program, however, and disagree with the fundamental beliefs of the program.

The only danger in that is when you repeat it to a newcomer. You are teaching something then, that differs from the main philosophy of our program.

The problem with sponsors teaching us wrong information is that we learn it and profess it to be truth, teaching others.

Happy or right. When it comes to people needing to learn this program of AA...one needs to get the foundation right.

Especially if they are going to be teaching or leading others.

I just don't see how you could disagree with the program's position on choice and still be so involved in AA.

Why would someone who disagrees with loss of choice be in a program that teaches loss of choice?

Is it for social reasons?

It seems many people are in AA, but don't like the Lord's prayer, don't like God, don't agree with lack of power, or loss of choice...and on and on.

It just amazes me how many people are in one program where the beliefs are clearly outlined in our book, yet say, oh, yes, that is in the book, but my sponsor told me otherwise so I believe that instead.

I'm glad your way works for you GracieLou...even if it's not what AA teaches us. I know there are many ways to stay sober.

Again, the only danger is if we pass along incorrect information. Telling someone if they drink again that it was a bad choice or their choice, and that they are not powerless until after they take a drink of alcohol is not what is written in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
SoulSister is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:00 AM
  # 123 (permalink)  
Member
 
readerbaby71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
Originally Posted by SoulSister View Post
I understand you would rather be happy than right.

You are in a program, however, and disagree with the fundamental beliefs of the program.

The only danger in that is when you repeat it to a newcomer. You are teaching something then, that differs from the main philosophy of our program.

The problem with sponsors teaching us wrong information is that we learn it and profess it to be truth, teaching others.

Happy or right. When it comes to people needing to learn this program of AA...one needs to get the foundation right.

Especially if they are going to be teaching or leading others.

I just don't see how you could disagree with the program's position on choice and still be so involved in AA.

Why would someone who disagrees with loss of choice be in a program that teaches loss of choice?

Is it for social reasons?

It seems many people are in AA, but don't like the Lord's prayer, don't like God, don't agree with lack of power, or loss of choice...and on and on.

It just amazes me how many people are in one program where the beliefs are clearly outlined in our book, yet say, oh, yes, that is in the book, but my sponsor told me otherwise so I believe that instead.

I'm glad your way works for you GracieLou...even if it's not what AA teaches us. I know there are many ways to stay sober.

Again, the only danger is if we pass along incorrect information. Telling someone if they drink again that it was a bad choice or their choice, and that they are not powerless until after they take a drink of alcohol is not what is written in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
What exactly are you trying to "teach" gracielou? Everyone works their program in different ways. Knowitallism is NOT attractive nor is it appropriate to tell someone that what they're getting out of the program is wrong. This is the kind of preachy, rigid, BS that scares people away from 12 step programs.
readerbaby71 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:04 AM
  # 124 (permalink)  
Mini Novel Post Writer
 
LadyBlue0527's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by readerbaby71 View Post
What exactly are you trying to "teach" gracielou? Everyone works their program in different ways. Knowitallism is NOT attractive nor is it appropriate to tell someone that what they're getting out of the program is wrong. This is the kind of preachy, rigid, BS that scares people away from 12 step programs.
LadyBlue0527 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:18 AM
  # 125 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by readerbaby71 View Post
What exactly are you trying to "teach" gracielou? Everyone works their program in different ways. Knowitallism is NOT attractive nor is it appropriate to tell someone that what they're getting out of the program is wrong. This is the kind of preachy, rigid, BS that scares people away from 12 step programs.
Clarification and truth in the matter is doesn't have to be taken as preachy or rigid.

GracieLou and I were talking about the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Unless you have read this book, it may be difficult to understand what we are talking about.

I never said what anyone is getting out of the program was wrong. You said that. I was pointing out the truth from an AA standpoint when I heard false ideas.

There is no harm done in discovering truth.

Sorry you got upset. No harm meant by me, for sure.
SoulSister is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:20 AM
  # 126 (permalink)  
Member
 
readerbaby71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
I have read the book, and many things are open to interpretation. Your 'truth' may not be the same as someone else's. I don't know if you realize it, but you come off as very condescending and judgmental. Just my humble opinion.
readerbaby71 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:24 AM
  # 127 (permalink)  
Mini Novel Post Writer
 
LadyBlue0527's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by SoulSister View Post
I was pointing out the truth from an AA standpoint when I heard false ideas.
I have read the BB. I worked with a sponsor, my interpretation is my own. You might have a different interpretation and that's most certainly your right.
LadyBlue0527 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 10:59 AM
  # 128 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Newark NJ
Posts: 14
A lot of people do not understand
crochetforall is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 11:16 AM
  # 129 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
SoulSister is merely describing a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. These principles serve as part of the primary basis of an ideology, and they cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Is that about right, SS?

This is the definition of dogma.
freshstart57 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 11:36 AM
  # 130 (permalink)  
Member
 
readerbaby71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,778
Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
SoulSister is merely describing a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. These principles serve as part of the primary basis of an ideology, and they cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Is that about right, SS?

This is the definition of dogma.
You are correct in your definition of dogma. Still not a fan. Buddhism has helped me immensely in my recovery, yet there are still parts of it that I do not subscribe to. I've never been good at following the rules completely.
readerbaby71 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 11:58 AM
  # 131 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoulSister View Post
We can't be connected to power to resist alcohol, restored, yet still claim to be powerless over alcohol. We can't have it both ways.

Powerless means no power. God is power. Powerless is without God. No power to resist alcohol. No choice.

The idea that we are not in fit spiritual condition, not connected to God, or powerless, without God, is why we lose choice and drink again...is what I learned.
I'm not now or have ever been empowered to resist taking a drink. AA is not about resisting taking that next drink. There is no next drink in my sobriety. My choices have not been lost if I don't have God. Alcoholism has taken my free choice for alcohol away and this means simply means I can only drink as an alcoholic. I can't choose to drink as something else. I'll always have my alcoholism.

Being in a fit spiritual condition empowers me to live a spiritual life with my alcoholism in remission. It really has nothing to do with resisting alcohol. The alcohol problem has been removed.

This is what AA has taught me.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 12:46 PM
  # 132 (permalink)  
Sober Alcoholic
 
awuh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
SoulSister and GracieLou, I would offer this quote.

“The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink.” Page 24, 1st edition of the book “Alcoholics Anonymous”.

Notice that it says “most alcoholics” and not all alcoholics.

Nomis, Thanks for the link that you posted earlier in this thread. I would urge everyone to spend the time to view it. It’s a very nice presentation on addiction and choice, and it may help many to understand some of the “reasons yet obscure”.
awuh1 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 12:47 PM
  # 133 (permalink)  
Recovered from Hopeless State
 
dSober's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
Jeez, we're on the same team gang!

dSober is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 01:05 PM
  # 134 (permalink)  
Sober Today
 
GreenEggsAndHam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 779
Originally Posted by SoulSister View Post
You are in a program, however, and disagree with the fundamental beliefs of the program.*

Why would someone who disagrees with loss of choice be in a program that teaches loss of choice?

Is it for social reasons?
.
Why would you say something like this to her? So rude.
GreenEggsAndHam is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 01:17 PM
  # 135 (permalink)  
Recovered from Hopeless State
 
dSober's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 2,156
dSober is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 04:28 PM
  # 136 (permalink)  
Cow
Woe is Moo.
 
Cow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
For me, I never like word 'power' in addiction context. I always say "I has untenable compulsion to drink." Sometime is too unbearable, manic and intense to be consider a real "choice" that I could turn away from, but, other time....mmmm.....I has be real and say, maybe intensity was no so overwhelming and I maybe just pretend it is, so I can go with it, cuz it what is most desirable to do in moment.

PS. dsober, glad Cow is not only one who kicks up the dust here! Kumbaya!
Cow is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 04:42 PM
  # 137 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Dee74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,048
Let keep the discussion civil, and away from 'my recovery could beat up your recovery' type insinuations thanks, lest I be forced to behave in an unEasterly fashion

Happy weekend all - look a bunny!

D
Dee74 is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 04:46 PM
  # 138 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 7
You could say that "you choose not to drink" if that helps.
kevfinn is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 05:00 PM
  # 139 (permalink)  
Cow
Woe is Moo.
 
Cow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,746
D, that maybe cutest bunny ever. Who can be uncivil at each other in face of tiny baby bunny with such adorabilities.

Kev, I has say "I choose no to drink" but then 15 minute later, I drinking. Is like nebulous thing where I not sure in that space of time where exactly escape velocity is reach and sobriety is gonna be breached. You know how like in physics, to get out door, you first has to go half way to door, then half way of half way, etc., and this half steps increments is infinite, yet, at some point, you out the freaking door. Is maybe same as 'tipping point' concept when is maybe split moment between 'not has to' and 'is going to'. I know I probable not making any sense except to my own head!
Cow is offline  
Old 04-19-2014, 06:02 PM
  # 140 (permalink)  
Member
 
PurpleKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
All I know is 6 pints of Guinness in, there is no choice in the matter, choice has been thrown out the window and addiction takes control, which leads to a half a bottle of whiskey and blacking out into bed!! . . . all control is lost and alcohol becomes the master of all decisions to be made during the course of that evening!!

Sober? . . . everything changes . . . loosing control is not an option anymore!!
PurpleKnight is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:13 PM.