PaperDolls

This link popped up on my facebook feed today and I thought it was a well-thought out response by a well qualified professional.

Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12-Step Fellowship: A Modern Miracle | LiveScience

AA is not for everyone, but I truly believe one has to give a real, sincere shot to really know. I think many of the things covered by Dr. DuPont can be helpful answers to folks who think they may want to try AA but have heard so many negative things.

I'm not putting this up so that we can debate on whether or not AA works and in no way am I saying that AA is for everyone.

I'm hoping this may be helpful to someone who has questions or confusion about AA.

If you already know AA isn't your thing ... no need to jump in to tell us that. How ever you find sobriety and happiness, I'm happy for you. I'm also happy to hear about it because it helps me .... this just isn't the thread do to that ..... please continue to do it here at SR. The diversity is one of the reasons this place is so dang awesome!!

GreenEggsAndHam

Thank you for posting this article. I'm in the "pink cloud" phase (and loving it, not going to lie) so I won't say too much, but could not agree more with what was written.

CAPTAINZING2000

I had several friends sitting in the room at the first meeting I attended.
I'm in a small town and several other people I know came in after me.
AA was an easy transition for me.
People with social anxieties, a group setting like AA might not be so easy.
There are many of us on here with long term sobriety. Goes to show AA can help in achieving sobriety.

FeenixxRising

I read Dr. DuPont's rebuttal to Dr. Lance Dodes' recent AA comments yesterday, and I found a number of the comments by Dr. DuPont to be very disconcerting, if not disingenuous.

I won't make any specific remarks regarding Dr. DuPont's article because I don't want to derail the thread, but I will say that Dr. DuPont made at least one assertion that is completely unprovable, and unsupported by any real research or data. I expect more from a medical doctor, a man of science. Moreover, that specific assertion backed up one of Dr. Lodes' major criticisms of 12-Step programs, and in particular the AA program. I really can't understand how Dr. DuPont could not see how one of his major assertions actually helped the person he was rebutting. Again, I expect more from a man with Dr. DuPont's background.

Anyone who might care to hear my specific thoughts can PM me. As I said, I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll refrain from any further contributions.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing the AA program; my criticism is directed at Dr. DuPont's article and assertions.

Dee74

If we can't debate a linked article in a civil and reasoned way, we're in serious trouble feenix - whats your beef?

D

jdooner

My journey is chronicled here in my post history. However, I will summarize.

I was 12 stepped. I did not know how bad I had gotten towards the end. I rationalized not being "that bad" by the relative method. You know where you compare to your neighbor not to your potential.

I took to AA and read the BB. I forced a spiritual experience bc I wanted the end result and tried to force the natural progression.

I enjoyed the meetings. Then I got scared and didn't want AA to be my life. My sponsor's sponsor got really involved in my life and this added to my concern that AA was a cult. I ran to the arms of RR and bought all the literature. I read and felt more uneasy than when I was in AA.

I returned but I kept a distance with the steps. Then I doubled down here on SR and read In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts and other books. I sort of figured out my own step one with the help of Gabor Mate.

I began meditating 2x daily and journaling.

AA didn't seem as a scary and didn't seem like a cult either. I started back on my step work and around 6 months in I realized I had developed some real faith in my HP. My HP construct is not religious at all.

Ever since the faith aspect I feel different. Huge relief. I no longer obsess over alcohol. Everything is different. I have renewed interest in my steps having honestly achieved 1-3 and now working to complete 4 and 5.

I am thankful for AA and for the experience I have had with the program. That said it took another program and lots of mindfulness to get what I needed out of the program.

FeenixxRising

Dee, out of respect for PaperDolls I didn't want to get into specifics. But since you asked . . .

Dr. DuPont wrote: "When people ask me the percentage of success of AA and NA, the 12-step fellowships, I say it is 100 percent — for those who follow the programs as they're intended to be followed". Of course, that assertion is completely unprovable, and not backed up any real data or research. Moreover, suggesting that 100% of the people who work the Steps and the program "properly" will recover, implies--if not outright states--that anyone who has honestly worked the Steps and participated in AA/NA but failed to stay sober is somehow at fault. And the "at fault" issue is one of Dr. Lodes' criticisms of AA and 12-Step programs. So Dr. DuPont essentially proved Dr. Lodes' point.

Dr. DuPont than implies that alternative programs offer little but AA bashing. Well, I've participated in the SMART Recovery forums, and I've seen little or no "AA bashing". Dr. DuPont is clearly engaging in hyperbole.

Finally, it was Dr. DuPont's comment about sexual orientation that really had me shaking my head. He clearly implies that homosexuals should be stigmatized (or at the very least feels it's ok for others to stigmatize homosexuals). For the life of me, I can't understand why he felt the need to interject that hot-button topic into an article on recovery.

Bottom line, I don't believe Dr. DuPont is doing AA any favors. IMO he exemplifies the worst type of AA proponent.

LadyinBC

I totally agree. And this is in regards to any program out there. You don't know unless you try personally.

I too was confused about AA because there was so much info, so many steps and I just didn't understand the whole program. Plus I felt it was all or nothing. That I either had to do the program or not. And I've realized that I don't have to do it that way. If I can find one positive in it, then why not grab onto that?

I actually incorporate 3 programs into my life and AA is one of them. And I get something out of each of them. Of course there are things about each program that I don't agree with, however, I am not going to let that stop me from getting the positives out of them. I could literally nit pick all these programs to death to make it seem like they don't work. However, I have found a way to make these 3 programs work for me.

For me I don't look at these programs as a treatment, they are a tool to help me build up me. To change my outlook on things and to broaden my knowledge. Because my thinking was very boxed in when I was drinking.

I don't bash any program because I think there is something positive in ALL of them. You just have to find it and make it work for you .

Dee74

I actually read the sexual orientation sentence in the completely opposite way you did Feenix - I agree it wasn't written in the clearest fashion.

As for statistics like 100% - there's always 100% disagreement on those

D

LBrain

should NOT be stigmatized - I believe you misread or misunderstood what he was trying to convey there feenixx.

One thing that jumps out at me is the "celebration" of anniversaries of clean time. Of the more than 100 meetings I've been to, attendants are asked if anyone is celebrating an aa anniversary. Why, yes, I have a year today. People clap and they pass around a coin for the person. I've seen way more celebration on SR for clean time milestones than I have ever in an AA room. 10 years, 37 years whatever. Golf clap.

Dr DuPont is clearly a man who has never attended an AA meeting, or at the very least not as one who is there for its intended purpose. His commentary is clearly subjective.

And why are there few alternatives? It is because AA has been around 'forever' and has been clearly accepted as the keystone for addictive recovery. It's like going to an ice-cream shop and all they have is vanilla. You take vanilla or you get nothing. Now others are starting to show up. I have no opinion one way or another of the alternative methods since the only thing I know about them is they exist. I read up on AVRT - LIKE the concept very much thank you. But I cannot advocate for or discredit anyone of these because I simply do not have any data. I also think Dr DuPont is clearly misguided on what AA does to people. Yes, AA can be construed as having a sort of cult like atmosphere. It gives me the willies for sure. But I still go to meetings. Why? Because I want to get sober and stay sober. Whether or not I disagree with the 12 step methodology, I'll 'play' along so long as it keeps me out of trouble and does not try to change my beliefs.

FeenixxRising

After Dee's comment, I thought I may have misinterpreted Dr. DuPont's comment, so I've reread it several times, and I don't believe I have. And even if I have misunderstood, why would an AA proponent bring such a controversial topic into an article supportive of AA? I'm sure he understands Tradition 10, that AA should not be drawn into any public controversy.

But to be fair, Dr. DuPont does point out a few good things about AA/NA, primarily, the abundance and accessibility of meetings and of course the cost (which is free).

Unfortunately, Dr. DuPont's article is replete with a number of classic Straw Man/Aunt Sally arguments. The most blatant being his contention that a vast number of addiction professionals and academics hold beliefs they simply do not hold (that it's ok for addicts to just cut down).

I could go on, but it's clear I'm not particularly enthused with Dr. DuPont and his debating style, so I'll drop out of this thread for good this time.

Grungehead

I have to be honest, I usually don't read a lot of articles debating how effective AA (or any other recovery program) is or isn't. My goal is to a) get sober, b) stay sober, and c) be reasonably happy in sobriety. If I find something that gives me that (in my case AA) then the program is 100% successful for me.

In former attempts at getting sober in AA without actually following the program (the steps) I was able to accomplish "a" but not "b" and "c". When I came back this time I figured I would try working the steps since what I did in the past didn't work. So far so good.

The catch is that after completing the steps many people think they are "done". That's why the last step mentions that I need to practice these principles (steps) in all of my affairs. Steps 10-12 are called the maintenance and growth steps for a reason. I am supposed to live in these steps as a way of life for the rest of my life. I try to do this to the best of my ability and the result of that has been that my problem with alcohol has been removed.

I also believe this is true for other recovery recovery programs, whether it's RR/AVRT, Smart, SR, religion, or whatever else you find that works for you. Whatever you do to get and stay sober is something you need to stick with for a lifetime. I know that left to my own devices I will drink again. It's happened to me more than once where after multiple years of sobriety I stopped doing what got me sober in the first place...and it always ended with disastrous results.

If you want to get sober you have to change what you're doing. If you want to stay sober you have to stay changed.

I guess what I am trying to convey is that Dr. DuPont may have been saying that 100% of AA's who practice the principles of the program as suggested (especially steps 10-12) in their life every day will stay sober. I can buy that statement.

Gottalife

I did what Dr DuPont suggested and it has worked for me 100% of the time for more than 34 years.

I feel that his 100% claim might contain a little poetic license! but, on the other hand, he has extensive experience in the field and is in a position to make a Very good educated guess.

His guess tallies very closely with my own experience in AA. Most of those who practice the program as it was intended seem to recover. Unfortunately, most of those who pass through AA do not follow his advice.

We have our own addiction experts in NZ, whose views are similar to Dr DuPonts. Our top guy, prof Doug Selman gave a talk at a public meeting on Family Violence up dating the latest thinking on addiction treatment. After devoting more than 20 years of his life to researching alternatives to spiritual experience as a means of bringing about recovery, he had reached the conclusion that there was no medical way to bring about such a conversion.
His speech opened with the remark "it turns out AA was right all along". We were blown away! Note: He was talking about bottom of the barrel chronic alcoholics and addicts.

Along similar lines to DuPonts comments regarding continued use of substances at lower rates, some of our medics are into the political idea of harm minimisation. Drug him up... At least he's not drinking.

To me this is not much different to palliative care as offered to my late wife. Through the use of medication, reduce suffering as much as possible while we wait for the end. Occasional relapses, but no recovery.

A long way short of what has been possible through AA. Full recovery with no relapses.

BackToSquareOne

One thing I have noticed over the years is that most people would agree with the statement that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Very few people would apply this same logic to their particular program, hence it's usually the person who is said to be at fault but almost never the program. I guess that's just human nature tho.

tomsteve

"I say it is 100 percent — for those who follow the programs as they're intended to be followed". Of course, that assertion is completely unprovable, and not backed up any real data or research. "

I posted some time ago about old joe passing away sober.
I posted recently about thom committing suicide.

one thoroughly followed our path.
one didn't.
enough data for me to continue to thoroughly follow AA's path.

Mountainmanbob

excellent article -- thank you for sharing

off to my morning AA meeting -- don't fix it if it works

MM

LBrain

tomsteve, then by your logic, all programs work 100% if they are followed as intended.

If one chooses to follow the Buddhist principals then one can do the same.

PaperDolls

It's perfectly ok to debate in a respectful way FeenixxRising. It's all good.

I read the sexual orientation comment in a different way than you. I think he was saying neither should be stigmatized.

The 100% success rate -- I get what your saying. I've used that myself -- but I say that it's been 100% successful for me, thus far. Mostly, I don't think talking about the success rate of AA is very wise or helpful. There are so many factors ... and ultimately, we know that many, many people have been helped from AA. That's all the matters to me. So, AA works for thousands of people but it doesn't work for everyone and it's not always because they "don't do it right". That's absurd to say and counterproductive. AA itself says they do not have a monopoly on recovery. It's the truth.

I have not attended any alternative meetings but what I do know is that SR is a diverse place with people using many, many ways to get and stay sober. Most folks around here don't claim that their way is the only way. Some folks want to bash other programs, but it's generally less about the program and more about the person. So .... I agree with you that most other programs and the people that use them do not spend time bashing AA.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments ..... you made me think!

nandm

Thank you Paperdolls for posting the link.

My experience is that I follow the directions in the Big Book and so far have been able to maintain continuous sobriety so I would have to agree with I also agree that AA is not a treatment program it is a way of life as key elements of it require us to review and change the negative and unproductive aspects of ourselves. It is not a profit based system either which I know of no other alcohol or drug solutions/help that is not based on someone profiting off the alcoholic or drug addict.

As far as judging the program because of the fact that it is based on sobriety rather than moderation, in my opinion that is a bit ridiculous in the first place as they are two different things. For this alcoholic I need continuous sobriety as I went for years living in the flushing toilet of something bad would happen so I would stop drinking then after a period of not drinking I would decide it was safe to have just one and that one would over time progress right back to out of control and then something bad would happen and the whole cycle would start over again. I can not moderate as moderation is a death sentence to me.

Regarding Although I understand the point he is trying to make I have to disagree with him categorizing being gay as a alternative lifestyle as that implies choice. For me being gay was never a choice it is who I am, no different than the color of my eyes, it is a part of me not some alternative lifestyle. That is my only complaint or concern with his statement.

Regarding I do not know how much AA bashing goes on in other programs and I do hope that it is little but I have seen some fervent AA bashing go on here and in other forums from people who use other programs and I do like his question because I have often wondered why if their program is so wonderful do they feel the need to bash AA. If a program can stand on it's own merits then talk about it's merits don't trash another program to try and make yours look better, that does not impress me at all in fact it does the opposite and leaves me quite skeptical.

This article rang quite true for me personally as it is well in line with my experiences. I appreciate it having been shared, thank you Paperdolls.

PaperDolls

You have a really good point. I didn't look at it like that.