Alcoholism is a disease?
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by soberlicious 
Whether something is possible is entirely different than whether it is easily doable.
Yes, no doubt your story is that you were twisted. I have the same story. Grew up in a stinking vat of dysfunction. So what? So did millions of others who did not chose to use alcohol at all. Conversely, there are also millions who had fairly uneventful childhoods in the way of trauma who become addicted.
I do not believe in the "ism". Do I think that being addicted can f*ck up lives? I know first hand it can. Do I think that it would interfere with one's spirituality? Certainly. But to say that I did what I did because I have a disease for which there is no known cure? Sorry, no.
Anyone who drinks copious amounts of alcohol over time will indeed become addicted to that substance.
Yes, no doubt your story is that you were twisted. I have the same story. Grew up in a stinking vat of dysfunction. So what? So did millions of others who did not chose to use alcohol at all. Conversely, there are also millions who had fairly uneventful childhoods in the way of trauma who become addicted.
I do not believe in the "ism". Do I think that being addicted can f*ck up lives? I know first hand it can. Do I think that it would interfere with one's spirituality? Certainly. But to say that I did what I did because I have a disease for which there is no known cure? Sorry, no.
Anyone who drinks copious amounts of alcohol over time will indeed become addicted to that substance.
My illness warped everything already in play in me and my life. Alcoholism itself became a real problem when the warping started to kill me off from the inside out, and the only solution that looked good to me was more drinking and deeper drunks. Even though intellectually I knew drinking wouldn't work, I really had no moral, spiritual, or emotional inclination to seek a better answer. Since I really didn't seek outside help until my last quit, I can't speak to asking for help and then returning to drinking, so for me alcohol really was my only answer, until it wasn't. Since I wasn't able to sustain a quit on my own say so though, I'm not surprised I eventually embraced the AA suggestions for alcoholism and the suggestions for the living of a recovered life from that same alcoholism. In no way does my illness excuse me from anything. I've confidently declared as much for decades now, and I've yet to regret being responsible for myself as a man. I don't need alcoholism to hold my hand, lol. And neither do you, obviously.
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
the proof that people give to the supposed fact that alcoholism is a "progressive disease" is laughable
...this statement usually means that alcoholics progressive negatively in their disease even when they are sober
..this is coming from the same camp that believe people are born an alcoholic
...so logically then they believe people who never drink but are born alcoholics.genetically of course.get progressively worse in their disease until the day they die because the booze monster is doing pushups in their diseased minds
..i'm not even exaggerating here.. I'm shouldn't have said laughable..it really isn't
...this statement usually means that alcoholics progressive negatively in their disease even when they are sober
..this is coming from the same camp that believe people are born an alcoholic
...so logically then they believe people who never drink but are born alcoholics.genetically of course.get progressively worse in their disease until the day they die because the booze monster is doing pushups in their diseased minds
..i'm not even exaggerating here.. I'm shouldn't have said laughable..it really isn't
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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As far as the knowing we were alcoholic the first time we drank...I think most of would have subscribed to anything at that point. Anything whatsoever just to get out of our own heads and bodies. Alcohol just happened to be the easiest to obtain. Both physically and mentally. Perhaps we didn't have the resources nor knowledge to get hooked on Jesus or fly fishing. We took the easy way and who wouldn't. It's a drug. It did it's job in the beginning. Who doesn't like not feeling like hell?
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Posts: 561
I don't believe its a disease. We chose to put poison in our bodies. We did this ourselves.
I wonder if someone offered all the alcoholics in the world a million dollars to stop drinking... how many of them would successfully quit?
It would probably drastically reduce the amount of alcoholics in the world I would think. (What do ya'll think?) It's not like having cancer. With drinking you can decide to stop and everything gets better.
But thats just my opinion and I respect others.
I wonder if someone offered all the alcoholics in the world a million dollars to stop drinking... how many of them would successfully quit?
It would probably drastically reduce the amount of alcoholics in the world I would think. (What do ya'll think?) It's not like having cancer. With drinking you can decide to stop and everything gets better.
But thats just my opinion
and I respect others.
High on Life
Join Date: Aug 2010
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It's interesting reading all of the posts about what alcoholism "is" or "isn't". If this "alcoholism" or whatever you want to call it, is so easily definable, why are you people here? Why didn't you just stop drinking and go on your merry way? Since it is that easy, many of you would have stopped a long time ago right? And the ones that stopped would have never picked up again, right? There really is no need to even talk about it, since it's that simple, right? I mean all you have to do is stop drinking, right? Just put the bottle down and never look back.....
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Originally Posted by TheEnd
It's interesting reading all of the posts about what alcoholism "is" or "isn't". If this "alcoholism" or whatever you want to call it, is so easily definable, why are you people here? Why didn't you just stop drinking and go on your merry way? Since it is that easy, many of you would have stopped a long time ago right? And the ones that stopped would have never picked up again, right? There really is no need to even talk about it, since it's that simple, right? I mean all you have to do is stop drinking, right? Just put the bottle down and never look back.....
life challenges and tribulations can or cannot be linked to your drinking depending on the specific case. We are all unique and these things are not part of a collective symptom or behavior of alcoholism
mental health issues should never be thrown into the classification as a symptom of the alcoholic disease
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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I think that Addiction is a disease as well as a behaviour.
Some people go from being work a holics to alcoholics to exercise a holics.
Eating disorders are a disease as well as a behaviour
If the sugar and fat laden food lovers among us never ate those donuts and put all those simple sugars and simple carbs in their mouths and instead ate well and exercise they wouldn't end up with type 2 diabetes - which is a disease.
If people with addictive personalities who needed to escape from immeasurable pain or are just wanting a good time never took a drug or a drop of booze then they wouldn't become alcholics its true, but they would most likely find another addictive behaviour to cope with their feelings - like sex or gambling or shopping or work or exercise or lots of things.
I think addiction is a brain disease or disorder.
But regardless whether it is or isn't it deserves to get a lot of public funding and support because it is a really really big problem in a lot of the world.
It is great that people are so passionate about this - this thread has gone wild!
Some people go from being work a holics to alcoholics to exercise a holics.
Eating disorders are a disease as well as a behaviour
If the sugar and fat laden food lovers among us never ate those donuts and put all those simple sugars and simple carbs in their mouths and instead ate well and exercise they wouldn't end up with type 2 diabetes - which is a disease.
If people with addictive personalities who needed to escape from immeasurable pain or are just wanting a good time never took a drug or a drop of booze then they wouldn't become alcholics its true, but they would most likely find another addictive behaviour to cope with their feelings - like sex or gambling or shopping or work or exercise or lots of things.
I think addiction is a brain disease or disorder.
But regardless whether it is or isn't it deserves to get a lot of public funding and support because it is a really really big problem in a lot of the world.
It is great that people are so passionate about this - this thread has gone wild!
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You can be addicted to anything. Next they are going to call chronic exercising a disease because every time they exercise, it lights up the pleasure centre in their brain, just like any drug does.
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Originally Posted by lisatrying
Sorenson will calling it a disorder make you happier?
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As the phrase "Swapping the witch for the bitch" suggests, some people seem to be more likely to swap one addictive behaviour for another.
The fact that only 5% of Vietnam vets were still using a year later suggests to me that they were people who had a genetic susceptibility for addiction.
Genetic susceptibility like a diabetic.
I am surprised that any people on this thread don't want others with addictive behaviours to be able to get as much support from the government and their communities as possible to help their addictions.
Studies show that for every dollar spent on addiction treatment the government saves at least 3 times that, and I am sure its much higher when you factor in jail time and crime etc.
The fact that only 5% of Vietnam vets were still using a year later suggests to me that they were people who had a genetic susceptibility for addiction.
Genetic susceptibility like a diabetic.
I am surprised that any people on this thread don't want others with addictive behaviours to be able to get as much support from the government and their communities as possible to help their addictions.
Studies show that for every dollar spent on addiction treatment the government saves at least 3 times that, and I am sure its much higher when you factor in jail time and crime etc.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
[QUOTE=lisatrying;4478233]
I am surprised that any people on this thread don't want others with addictive behaviors to be able to get as much support from the government and their communities as possible to help their addictions.
/QUOTE]
are you saying that we have to believe in the disease model...and the genetic theory..to be a person who wants government help for addiction?
I don't understand your logic
It does seem to be an undertone that if you don't believe in all this hokus pokus disease theory that equally you don't care about addicts or want them to get proper help.
so I guess the best thing is to stick your head in the sand and pretend you buy into this stuff because it's the only way we are going to get government funded treatment..is that true..I really hope not
I am surprised that any people on this thread don't want others with addictive behaviors to be able to get as much support from the government and their communities as possible to help their addictions.
/QUOTE]
are you saying that we have to believe in the disease model...and the genetic theory..to be a person who wants government help for addiction?
I don't understand your logic
It does seem to be an undertone that if you don't believe in all this hokus pokus disease theory that equally you don't care about addicts or want them to get proper help.
so I guess the best thing is to stick your head in the sand and pretend you buy into this stuff because it's the only way we are going to get government funded treatment..is that true..I really hope not
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2nd warning guys...if we can't keep even tempered and resist the personal pot shots, I shut things down.
D
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People that swap out an addiction for another tend to have addictive personality which can stem from an underlying disorder such as ADHD or schizophrenia.
When I go for long periods of time without drinking, I tend to spend my money recklessly and buy everything I want if I can afford it.
When I go for long periods of time without drinking, I tend to spend my money recklessly and buy everything I want if I can afford it.
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This is a debate that never ends. I know I suffer from a illness in substance abuse. I am a selfish piece of garbage. Most real alcoholics will understand. My solution is in the Church. They seem to agree that I just lost my way in life. May God bless everyone who reads this.
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Well, Noelle, I'm not going to speak for Robby, but from my exchanges with him he does describe that time in his life when he was in the throes of addiction as being very dark. For all intents and purposes his real authentic self was gone, so my use of "demise" was not wholly inappropriate. Sometimes people use language metaphorically for emphasis.
Adventures In SpaceTime
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I have felt like garbage. I understand those feelings now. I understand my selfishness. I am not garbage, and have never been garbage, and never will be garbage. Feelings and ideations can break down the best of us in ways not always understood at the time because the hurt, fear, and anger can fog out our perception and awareness of the true nature of our troubles and struggles.
Trashing myself only worked against me, and this only made sense if I was wanting to beat myself up for whatever flavor of the day didn't suit my selfish purposes and desires. When in primal mode, when push comes to shove we either stop and fight or we turn and run. There is a third option, but this option requires a sense of responsibility for our feelings and ideations. A sense of the flux of our ebb and flow within ourselves as we journey through our day. This process can be watched, can be observed from a place of tranquility. We can see ourselves being ourselves simply by embracing the responsibility of being. Just being is itself a wondrous experience that can be taken down to moments in time. These moments can be moderated and experienced from different positions of observation. In this way we can greatly expand and nourish our capacity for responsibility of our feelings and ideations.
No single train of feelings and ideations define me. The totality of my feelings and ideations are unlimited and in paradox, and so its really how I process all this which defines me best as a person making my way day to day. Garbage in garbage out was something I used to believe in. I was deluded. Now I understand my selfishness is not itself a garbage creator. My selfishness is more about how my humanity isn't satisfied with just being selfish. I also want to be free from the chains of my selfishness. Being human we won't settle for just being selfish. Holding on to feelings and ideations of being garbage only served to make the chains of selfishness all the more ponderous. Letting go is always the better choice. Being responsible redefines us in ways that allows us to better let go and move on.
Trashing myself only worked against me, and this only made sense if I was wanting to beat myself up for whatever flavor of the day didn't suit my selfish purposes and desires. When in primal mode, when push comes to shove we either stop and fight or we turn and run. There is a third option, but this option requires a sense of responsibility for our feelings and ideations. A sense of the flux of our ebb and flow within ourselves as we journey through our day. This process can be watched, can be observed from a place of tranquility. We can see ourselves being ourselves simply by embracing the responsibility of being. Just being is itself a wondrous experience that can be taken down to moments in time. These moments can be moderated and experienced from different positions of observation. In this way we can greatly expand and nourish our capacity for responsibility of our feelings and ideations.
No single train of feelings and ideations define me. The totality of my feelings and ideations are unlimited and in paradox, and so its really how I process all this which defines me best as a person making my way day to day. Garbage in garbage out was something I used to believe in. I was deluded. Now I understand my selfishness is not itself a garbage creator. My selfishness is more about how my humanity isn't satisfied with just being selfish. I also want to be free from the chains of my selfishness. Being human we won't settle for just being selfish. Holding on to feelings and ideations of being garbage only served to make the chains of selfishness all the more ponderous. Letting go is always the better choice. Being responsible redefines us in ways that allows us to better let go and move on.
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I have shared my experience in this thread, and that is all I can do. Someone read my posts and labeled them spiritual in nature, which I find somewhat baffling. Long ago I was in treatment for addiction and I revolted against the disease model of alcoholism or drug addiction.
After a decade of active addiction while wrangling with that premise, it wasn't until I realized my inner debate was doing no good did I decide to not fight against the label of disease. After all, the best science can offer now is that issues of the mind are a combination of nurture (environmental) or nature (chemical).
I wouldn't, nor did I, label my experience as a spiritual change. I do believe I have obtained a level of awareness that can be defined as a complete change of psyche, or certainly a deflation of self.
I no longer act on hubris, nor do I participate in debate for the sake of debate (mental masturbation?). I gain no satisfaction in trying to convince someone to my point of view, nor to I vehemently object to the views of others.
I have quit fighting a lot of things (most, actually), and have learned tolerance to the views and actions of others.
I gain nothing, nor do I help anyone, in espousing my views as right, the only right there is or the only right there could be.
The biggest change in me is finally understanding humility. I. Know. Very. Little.
For some people, eschewing the disease model of addiction is a focal point of their recovery. I get that, respect it, understand it is a hallmark of RR. I've only participated in this tread because my of my experience, that my insistence that addiction is not a disease did me zero good 15 years ago. Insistence that it is a disease does no one else any good either. Hence, here is my point: I see debate a healthy aspect in life, but when it comes to addiction and alcoholism I am forever aware of the affect my words can have on someone new to recovery or still actively drinking and drugging and looking for a way out. If I state as a fact that that newcomer is diseased, or that that newcomer is anything but sick, I am doing them a disservice. The path out of addictive addiction is a road we have to choose for ourselves.
Where the disease model fits me can be summed up as chronic (couldn't quit on my own), progressive (it got bad, then worse, then nightmarish), and diagnosed (its symptoms were easily recognizable by a variety of medical tests and expert evaluation).
And I can check the "fatal" box because I almost died: Seizures and psychosis from abrupt benzodiazepine withdrawal and liver damage from booze.
Acknowledging to myself that I was one sick puppy in no way exempts me from being responsible for my actions, nor does it mean I can explain away past behavior to addiction and not adhere to my responsibility to repair the damage I have caused others. And although the motivations of the American Psychiatric Association and American Medical Association are specious at best, I am grateful that the disease model of addiction opens up insurance dollars for treatment for many, whether it is just in seeing an addiction specialist or inpatient treatment.
I think models of treatment become dangerous when one (AA) insists only a spiritual awakening can cure us of our addiction and that is interpreted as Christian salvation, or similar absolutist thinking that I can gain abstinence by labeling my behavior as a beast and recognizing that animal as delusional thinking (AVRT).
When we debate recovery models -- which is appropriate for SR in many sub-forums -- I always try to remember that my posts can adversely affect the newcomer.
After a decade of active addiction while wrangling with that premise, it wasn't until I realized my inner debate was doing no good did I decide to not fight against the label of disease. After all, the best science can offer now is that issues of the mind are a combination of nurture (environmental) or nature (chemical).
I wouldn't, nor did I, label my experience as a spiritual change. I do believe I have obtained a level of awareness that can be defined as a complete change of psyche, or certainly a deflation of self.
I no longer act on hubris, nor do I participate in debate for the sake of debate (mental masturbation?). I gain no satisfaction in trying to convince someone to my point of view, nor to I vehemently object to the views of others.
I have quit fighting a lot of things (most, actually), and have learned tolerance to the views and actions of others.
I gain nothing, nor do I help anyone, in espousing my views as right, the only right there is or the only right there could be.
The biggest change in me is finally understanding humility. I. Know. Very. Little.
For some people, eschewing the disease model of addiction is a focal point of their recovery. I get that, respect it, understand it is a hallmark of RR. I've only participated in this tread because my of my experience, that my insistence that addiction is not a disease did me zero good 15 years ago. Insistence that it is a disease does no one else any good either. Hence, here is my point: I see debate a healthy aspect in life, but when it comes to addiction and alcoholism I am forever aware of the affect my words can have on someone new to recovery or still actively drinking and drugging and looking for a way out. If I state as a fact that that newcomer is diseased, or that that newcomer is anything but sick, I am doing them a disservice. The path out of addictive addiction is a road we have to choose for ourselves.
Where the disease model fits me can be summed up as chronic (couldn't quit on my own), progressive (it got bad, then worse, then nightmarish), and diagnosed (its symptoms were easily recognizable by a variety of medical tests and expert evaluation).
And I can check the "fatal" box because I almost died: Seizures and psychosis from abrupt benzodiazepine withdrawal and liver damage from booze.
Acknowledging to myself that I was one sick puppy in no way exempts me from being responsible for my actions, nor does it mean I can explain away past behavior to addiction and not adhere to my responsibility to repair the damage I have caused others. And although the motivations of the American Psychiatric Association and American Medical Association are specious at best, I am grateful that the disease model of addiction opens up insurance dollars for treatment for many, whether it is just in seeing an addiction specialist or inpatient treatment.
I think models of treatment become dangerous when one (AA) insists only a spiritual awakening can cure us of our addiction and that is interpreted as Christian salvation, or similar absolutist thinking that I can gain abstinence by labeling my behavior as a beast and recognizing that animal as delusional thinking (AVRT).
When we debate recovery models -- which is appropriate for SR in many sub-forums -- I always try to remember that my posts can adversely affect the newcomer.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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I don't know how sensitive we have to be. Anything can be a trigger. Where do you draw the line? i don't think a newcomer seeing a debate about their affliction is a bad thing. just my opinion of course. I also think everybody is entitled to their opinion whether they are a newcomer or an old timer or a repeat offender...its sr. so everybody is welcome
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Posts: 1,126
How sensitive do I have to be?
People die from chronic drinking and drugging.
If I pound into someone's head that they are diseased, it can add to cyclical thinking that they are hopelessly sick so what's the use in getting help.
If I insist that they have the power within themselves to just quit but they keep using or drinking, I'm potentially reinforcing their sense of hopelessness that results in continued use.
So I shared my experience from both sides of the coin.
When I first joined SR I had been sober for about four months and I read every sub-forum.
It was like tossing a coin and seeing I had to adhere to heads or tails, when in actuality the only win for me was when the quarter stood on its side.
People die from chronic drinking and drugging.
If I pound into someone's head that they are diseased, it can add to cyclical thinking that they are hopelessly sick so what's the use in getting help.
If I insist that they have the power within themselves to just quit but they keep using or drinking, I'm potentially reinforcing their sense of hopelessness that results in continued use.
So I shared my experience from both sides of the coin.
When I first joined SR I had been sober for about four months and I read every sub-forum.
It was like tossing a coin and seeing I had to adhere to heads or tails, when in actuality the only win for me was when the quarter stood on its side.
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