Smack me please
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston
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Smack me please
Just before I stopped drinking (just before Halloween), two alcohol incidents happened to people in my life - which I think actually functioned as a wake up call for me and pushed me to take action.
Anyways, one particularly is playing in my mind and I don't like my thoughts around them - so I am sharing them here in this safe place so you can all virtually SMACK some sense back into me.
A friend, who was the boyfriend of one of my closest friends, had a massive heart attach in her living room - she was able to barely keep him alive until paramedics were able to reach her house. The guy who had the heart attack is a serious alcoholic.
We have always known he was an alcoholic (how could we not- he lost his license, he's been in jail, he's been forced into rehab by the state as part of his probation...). We always knew his situation was serious. Yet - I always found it a bit callous that she continued to drink when she was with him. She took the stance that his drinking was his problem, something he needed to control. And it is true, I acknowledge that, but seriously? You know someone has a serious addiction to alcohol, and you claim to have feelings for him, but you are still downing two dewars and three glasses of wine at dinner when he is sipping soda? Of course, the relationships was much more complicated than I can share here, but the point is - she knew he was an alcoholic, and she drank when she was around him anyway. I asked her about it once, and she said "his drinking is his problem."
So - now that he had a heart attack in her living room, she is talking about PTSD symptoms she is having. I get it, it is traumatic when someone close to dies in your house. Especially if it is someone you had complicated feelings for.
Since PSH passed, she has said she is having PTSD reactions again, triggered because the guy who had a heart attack was also a performer.
Here's where I need someone to smack me with a compassion glove - I feel like saying "F**K YOUR PTSD". You didn't respect his condition when you were drinking and he wasn't, you weren't supportive when you looked the other way when he was drinking but just ordered another. So wah wah wah, poor you went through a "trauma" of watching the guy almost die from his alcoholism.
SMACK ME! This is my closest buddy - she is like a sister to me. But I avoid this topic with her, just shut it off and tell her she needs to move on. Do you know why - because I have an angry me inside that is saying "Sorry honey - his heart attack was not ABOUT YOU. You didn't care enough when he was drinking...but now that this happened YOU are suffering?"
Who the h*ll am I?
This sort of thinking and feeling is unlike me - and I don't like it. SMACK ME!
Anyways, one particularly is playing in my mind and I don't like my thoughts around them - so I am sharing them here in this safe place so you can all virtually SMACK some sense back into me.
A friend, who was the boyfriend of one of my closest friends, had a massive heart attach in her living room - she was able to barely keep him alive until paramedics were able to reach her house. The guy who had the heart attack is a serious alcoholic.
We have always known he was an alcoholic (how could we not- he lost his license, he's been in jail, he's been forced into rehab by the state as part of his probation...). We always knew his situation was serious. Yet - I always found it a bit callous that she continued to drink when she was with him. She took the stance that his drinking was his problem, something he needed to control. And it is true, I acknowledge that, but seriously? You know someone has a serious addiction to alcohol, and you claim to have feelings for him, but you are still downing two dewars and three glasses of wine at dinner when he is sipping soda? Of course, the relationships was much more complicated than I can share here, but the point is - she knew he was an alcoholic, and she drank when she was around him anyway. I asked her about it once, and she said "his drinking is his problem."
So - now that he had a heart attack in her living room, she is talking about PTSD symptoms she is having. I get it, it is traumatic when someone close to dies in your house. Especially if it is someone you had complicated feelings for.
Since PSH passed, she has said she is having PTSD reactions again, triggered because the guy who had a heart attack was also a performer.
Here's where I need someone to smack me with a compassion glove - I feel like saying "F**K YOUR PTSD". You didn't respect his condition when you were drinking and he wasn't, you weren't supportive when you looked the other way when he was drinking but just ordered another. So wah wah wah, poor you went through a "trauma" of watching the guy almost die from his alcoholism.
SMACK ME! This is my closest buddy - she is like a sister to me. But I avoid this topic with her, just shut it off and tell her she needs to move on. Do you know why - because I have an angry me inside that is saying "Sorry honey - his heart attack was not ABOUT YOU. You didn't care enough when he was drinking...but now that this happened YOU are suffering?"
Who the h*ll am I?
This sort of thinking and feeling is unlike me - and I don't like it. SMACK ME!
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 138
There are many people on this site who are wise, and I look forward to the wise things they will say.
I just wanted to comment on one thing. When you say "Sorry honey - his heart attack was not ABOUT YOU. You didn't care enough when he was drinking...but now that this happened YOU are suffering?" I think there are several things going on for you that it might be helpful to tease out.
"His heart attack was not ABOUT YOU." I relate to that statement. The selfish need to make something about you, including and especially when someone else suffered, is a quality I find most loathsome. I know people like this, for whom the world and its tragedy is just another way to talk about their favorite topic...themselves. I would also avoid this conversation as much as possible as it would be hard for me to bite my tongue.
But this part "You didn't care enough when he was drinking" is harder to judge for me. What is the responsibility of the partner of the alcoholic? I'm unsettled on that point.
And then to somehow imply that if the people around the alcoholic cared enough they could do something...I don't know if that's fair. I thought one of the core lessons of AlAnon was to not see yourself as being able to control the alcoholic's behavior.
I also know that as an alcoholic myself I would find it hard to be there with my friend through this without overlaying my own crap in a way that wouldn't be helpful.
Maybe suggest she seek someone professional to talk this through with?
I just wanted to comment on one thing. When you say "Sorry honey - his heart attack was not ABOUT YOU. You didn't care enough when he was drinking...but now that this happened YOU are suffering?" I think there are several things going on for you that it might be helpful to tease out.
"His heart attack was not ABOUT YOU." I relate to that statement. The selfish need to make something about you, including and especially when someone else suffered, is a quality I find most loathsome. I know people like this, for whom the world and its tragedy is just another way to talk about their favorite topic...themselves. I would also avoid this conversation as much as possible as it would be hard for me to bite my tongue.
But this part "You didn't care enough when he was drinking" is harder to judge for me. What is the responsibility of the partner of the alcoholic? I'm unsettled on that point.
And then to somehow imply that if the people around the alcoholic cared enough they could do something...I don't know if that's fair. I thought one of the core lessons of AlAnon was to not see yourself as being able to control the alcoholic's behavior.
I also know that as an alcoholic myself I would find it hard to be there with my friend through this without overlaying my own crap in a way that wouldn't be helpful.
Maybe suggest she seek someone professional to talk this through with?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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Originally Posted by JustODAAT 
I also know that as an alcoholic myself I would find it hard to be there with my friend through this without overlaying my own crap in a way that wouldn't be helpful.
I think you NAILED it with this. I have a lot of feeling surrounding my own struggles with drinking and how hard it was/is, and I think I might be projecting. I have some anger here.
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
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I guess I thought PTSD was for people who survive rape or abuse or come back from wars. Not for people whose spouse *almost* die in their living room. Sorry, can't smack you - I'd have a similar reaction.
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And you know what it is? Where I am right now, and who I am right now, I see alcoholism as a form of suffering. I see the constant craving for alcohol as a form of suffering. Maybe when I get some space and some more sophistication in my knowledge about the condition, I will think differently, but until then - I see people i the midst of recovery as people managing some suffering. I really do. I HATE this whole scenario because if you know that someone is suffering in a particular way...why would you rub it in their face???
I think THAT's the philosophical issue I am grappling with.
As for my friend, we are close like sisters and we share our thoughts and feelings, so I feel like I am being unfair when she shares in this way and I have this strong reaction...
I think THAT's the philosophical issue I am grappling with.
As for my friend, we are close like sisters and we share our thoughts and feelings, so I feel like I am being unfair when she shares in this way and I have this strong reaction...
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: North East, US
Posts: 2,310
I think you need to remove YOUR feelings from the equation, and see what it is that is causing you to react so strongly. I try hard in my real life to NEVER judge other people's actions. I think it's far to easy and often wrong when we assume or project what other people are feeling.
I was in a quite similar situation as your friend. I was drinking pretty frequently around my recovering of 12 years alcoholic husband. Alcohol was his problem not mine I said too. November 2012 my husband drove himself to the ER with a heart rate over 220 A FIB complete heart failure with three blood clots in the heart, which made treating pretty difficult. I was drunk that night and when the hospital called to say you need to get here now your husbands not doing well, I had to phone a friend for a ride!!! Disgusting and unforgivable, but those are my crosses to bear and for no one to judge. The only person who needed to forgive me was him and no one else!
I can also attest that such incidents can cause PTSD, may not be as severe as a rape victim or veteran of war. But one can definitely experience emotional trauma when nearly losing someone so close.
Talk to you friend, she may really be hurting. Perhaps your sobriety can be an inspiration to both her and her boyfriend.
I was in a quite similar situation as your friend. I was drinking pretty frequently around my recovering of 12 years alcoholic husband. Alcohol was his problem not mine I said too. November 2012 my husband drove himself to the ER with a heart rate over 220 A FIB complete heart failure with three blood clots in the heart, which made treating pretty difficult. I was drunk that night and when the hospital called to say you need to get here now your husbands not doing well, I had to phone a friend for a ride!!! Disgusting and unforgivable, but those are my crosses to bear and for no one to judge. The only person who needed to forgive me was him and no one else!
I can also attest that such incidents can cause PTSD, may not be as severe as a rape victim or veteran of war. But one can definitely experience emotional trauma when nearly losing someone so close.
Talk to you friend, she may really be hurting. Perhaps your sobriety can be an inspiration to both her and her boyfriend.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: london
Posts: 4,978
I think i used to be like a stress and anxiety antenna , slowly with time things change .
If this woman and her guy are part of your using scene it might be worth backing out a bit , her drinking in front of her guy isn't your problem , just as much if not more as his drinking isn't her problem .
stay strong , m
If this woman and her guy are part of your using scene it might be worth backing out a bit , her drinking in front of her guy isn't your problem , just as much if not more as his drinking isn't her problem .
stay strong , m
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I agree with Imperfectly me.
You're reacting like an alcoholic, and in that sense it's a valid response.
but...I'm not perfect and neither are my friends...
but I can still love them and be there for them - even tho I might disagree with whatever they're saying or doing at the time.
I know they'd do the same for me - cos they have
D
You're reacting like an alcoholic, and in that sense it's a valid response.
but...I'm not perfect and neither are my friends...
but I can still love them and be there for them - even tho I might disagree with whatever they're saying or doing at the time.
I know they'd do the same for me - cos they have
D
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Anyistoomuch -
I actually would have the exact same feelings about this. I can't smack you either. And maybe that makes us both wrong. But to me, if I were in your shoes, observing this, I would feel like she was indeed rubbing his nose in it, and not having much compassion for his condition, and the fact that he was really trying to be sober. Going one step further, I think I would feel as if my friend would also then not have too much compassion for my own recovery, and that this person that I love like a sister might feel that it's ok to treat a person as "less than" because they have a problem. It would feel insulting to me, and just mean. So, for her to be so dismissive of his feelings/struggle, and then to say she has PTSD (which, she might to a degree), and go all "Woe is me" about it would be a bit off-putting.
I'd love to say that I don't judge others actions. I do. I do it all the time. I'm human, and I'm opinionated. I keep it to myself, but I do. What I also try to do, however, is to consider that there may be information that I don't have about a particular situation that might change my opinion of the situation. Sounds to me that perhaps she had a lot of anger toward him and was 'punishing' him for past sins? Maybe if we knew the extent of those, we'd look at her like a saint for staying at all...I don't have all the info, so I don't know - but I don't think you should beat yourself up too badly just for not liking what you saw. I think it's ok to have your own thoughts about it.
I actually would have the exact same feelings about this. I can't smack you either. And maybe that makes us both wrong. But to me, if I were in your shoes, observing this, I would feel like she was indeed rubbing his nose in it, and not having much compassion for his condition, and the fact that he was really trying to be sober. Going one step further, I think I would feel as if my friend would also then not have too much compassion for my own recovery, and that this person that I love like a sister might feel that it's ok to treat a person as "less than" because they have a problem. It would feel insulting to me, and just mean. So, for her to be so dismissive of his feelings/struggle, and then to say she has PTSD (which, she might to a degree), and go all "Woe is me" about it would be a bit off-putting.
I'd love to say that I don't judge others actions. I do. I do it all the time. I'm human, and I'm opinionated. I keep it to myself, but I do. What I also try to do, however, is to consider that there may be information that I don't have about a particular situation that might change my opinion of the situation. Sounds to me that perhaps she had a lot of anger toward him and was 'punishing' him for past sins? Maybe if we knew the extent of those, we'd look at her like a saint for staying at all...I don't have all the info, so I don't know - but I don't think you should beat yourself up too badly just for not liking what you saw. I think it's ok to have your own thoughts about it.
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: St. Paul Minnesota
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On three... lets smack each other. I am dealing with some of that right now. In my opinion anyone who drinks with an alcoholic has some type of problem themselves. Then the inevitable happens and don't see the connection. As in "look how this affected me." She is entitled to feel however she wants and she can only take care of herself not him. I am entitled to be angry over the whole situation. It's not going to help but that's my right as well.
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Anyistoo much,
an opinion:
when someone has a heart attack in front of you, no, it's not about you.
what IS about you is the effect it has on you.
i can well believe this was traumatic for your friend.
the heart-attack didn't happen to her, but something else DID. she went through something.
you are her friend, so it's to be expected she wants to talk with you about what happened to HER.
that you appear to have some resentments over how she drank in front of him and in that way wasn't exactly supporting his efforts at sobriety...yeah, i'd feel that too, though it seems unreasonable for YOU to be so pissed off about it...why and how did this affect YOU so much? different question, yes?
i see your anger at her about that and her need for you to understand that something happened to her when something happened to him as different things that are getting all mashed up together...see if you can step away for a few days from this and figure out where your own stuff is in this.
no smacks.
an opinion:
when someone has a heart attack in front of you, no, it's not about you.
what IS about you is the effect it has on you.
i can well believe this was traumatic for your friend.
the heart-attack didn't happen to her, but something else DID. she went through something.
you are her friend, so it's to be expected she wants to talk with you about what happened to HER.
that you appear to have some resentments over how she drank in front of him and in that way wasn't exactly supporting his efforts at sobriety...yeah, i'd feel that too, though it seems unreasonable for YOU to be so pissed off about it...why and how did this affect YOU so much? different question, yes?
i see your anger at her about that and her need for you to understand that something happened to her when something happened to him as different things that are getting all mashed up together...see if you can step away for a few days from this and figure out where your own stuff is in this.
no smacks.
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Thanks for helping me sort through this, everyone.
I own my feelings about this, I have some anger with the scenario that is most likely less about my friend and more about what I am working through right now. This is clearly making me feel like an a**hole because I know that my reaction is out of proportion with the scenario, but it is there and i have to manage it.
So you know what - I will just have to tell her, if it even comes up again, that I wish I could talk to her about this right now but I can't - I've got my own junk to sort through because I am working on my own alcoholism. I was with her within an hour after it happened, I maneuvered her through the hospital system to get her in to see him because she wasn't next of kin, I rallied a lot of support for her, I gave her a lot of time to be with her through it after it happened. So I know that I have been a good friend to her. Right now I have to work on myself.
I am only three months into my own sobriety and I am at a place where I am mining out a lot of the reasons I started to drink. I guess this state is much more raw for me than I thought.
I own my feelings about this, I have some anger with the scenario that is most likely less about my friend and more about what I am working through right now. This is clearly making me feel like an a**hole because I know that my reaction is out of proportion with the scenario, but it is there and i have to manage it.
So you know what - I will just have to tell her, if it even comes up again, that I wish I could talk to her about this right now but I can't - I've got my own junk to sort through because I am working on my own alcoholism. I was with her within an hour after it happened, I maneuvered her through the hospital system to get her in to see him because she wasn't next of kin, I rallied a lot of support for her, I gave her a lot of time to be with her through it after it happened. So I know that I have been a good friend to her. Right now I have to work on myself.
I am only three months into my own sobriety and I am at a place where I am mining out a lot of the reasons I started to drink. I guess this state is much more raw for me than I thought.
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A heart attack can cause PTSD, especially since she kept him alive until paramedics arrived. I am a trained Fire Fighter and First Responder, we go through a lot of training to prepare for such situations, and still receive counseling if we lose one. That being said, she should not be drinking in front of him, that's like eating a steak in front of a vegan wolf. If she cant put her drinks down when she is with him, she should be looking for some help too.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Christchurch
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God, I was like this. Drank like a fish and so did my husband who suffered life threatening consequences as a result of his drinking. I continued to drink heavily despite this. What a toxic mess. Thanks for your thread, I was struggling with my sobriety today and this has given me the kick in the ass I need.
Your close friend sounds like she has an alcohol problem herself. I would take 3 big steps back from this drama and just advise her to see a professional.
Your close friend sounds like she has an alcohol problem herself. I would take 3 big steps back from this drama and just advise her to see a professional.
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