My view on moderation - the science behind the mirage
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My view on moderation - the science behind the mirage
I am an Engineer by background and not a medical doctor. However, given my disease of addiction, as part of this process of recovery I have been engrossed on learning more about the biology, spirituality and sociology of addiction. I see many post about how the addict wants to moderate or if they can moderate. For the addict (I include alcoholic as an addict - no difference) science has now shown this task is not biologically possible due to brain development.
There are different regions of your brain as I understand it that deal with different functions. In particular the recent research on the Orbitofrontal Cortex of the brain serves as the executive function of the brain playing a central role in your behavior. As we use drugs (alcohol included) a dysfunction occurs. Depending upon the drug, we overload neurotransmitter stimuli. For example with cocaine we flood our neurotransmitters with 300x the amount of normal dopamine. This creates the elation and also over time rewires the neurotransmitters - reducing the dopamine receptors (hence the need for more drugs or cravings and thus relapses). Alcohol is no different actually.
More can be found here: Orbitofrontal Cortex and Human Drug Abuse: Functional Imaging
In my Layman's understanding our brains are constantly firing. When we abuse a drug we are shifting the firing for a near term high but in doing so rewiring the brain. As the brain gets rewired the ability to make executive rational decisions is impaired. So what we once considered as moderation can no longer be applied. In short you have crossed a line that may not be possible to change back - only an MRI imaging of your brain and a neuroscientist might be able to determine this but sufficed to say moderation is impossible for the addict. This also may be the broken brain phenomenon often referred too by addicts.
I have also found it quite interesting that most recent science on addiction concludes that genetic predisposition plays a very small role in our addiction. In other words, we were not born this way but developed this way due to our environment. For parents this is particularly important bc by changing our habits we can effectively brake the cycle for our kids.
For me this is all dynamic. I am finding my understanding constantly changing and may be somewhat naive in my perspectives, which is why I am posting to gather feedback from others like me. My post is to highlight some of the science of what is happening for those interested but not to diminish the spiritual aspect, which plays a critical role in recovery in my opinion. Love to hear what others think.
There are different regions of your brain as I understand it that deal with different functions. In particular the recent research on the Orbitofrontal Cortex of the brain serves as the executive function of the brain playing a central role in your behavior. As we use drugs (alcohol included) a dysfunction occurs. Depending upon the drug, we overload neurotransmitter stimuli. For example with cocaine we flood our neurotransmitters with 300x the amount of normal dopamine. This creates the elation and also over time rewires the neurotransmitters - reducing the dopamine receptors (hence the need for more drugs or cravings and thus relapses). Alcohol is no different actually.
More can be found here: Orbitofrontal Cortex and Human Drug Abuse: Functional Imaging
In my Layman's understanding our brains are constantly firing. When we abuse a drug we are shifting the firing for a near term high but in doing so rewiring the brain. As the brain gets rewired the ability to make executive rational decisions is impaired. So what we once considered as moderation can no longer be applied. In short you have crossed a line that may not be possible to change back - only an MRI imaging of your brain and a neuroscientist might be able to determine this but sufficed to say moderation is impossible for the addict. This also may be the broken brain phenomenon often referred too by addicts.
I have also found it quite interesting that most recent science on addiction concludes that genetic predisposition plays a very small role in our addiction. In other words, we were not born this way but developed this way due to our environment. For parents this is particularly important bc by changing our habits we can effectively brake the cycle for our kids.
For me this is all dynamic. I am finding my understanding constantly changing and may be somewhat naive in my perspectives, which is why I am posting to gather feedback from others like me. My post is to highlight some of the science of what is happening for those interested but not to diminish the spiritual aspect, which plays a critical role in recovery in my opinion. Love to hear what others think.
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Yes I don't believe I was born this way, maybe originally I had a predisposition towards alcoholism. I chose numerous paths along the road of life that took me further along a path until I reached the point of no return..
Either way, that train called moderation pulled out of the station long ago.
Either way, that train called moderation pulled out of the station long ago.
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Originally Posted by jdooner 
I have also found it quite interesting that most recent science on addiction concludes that genetic predisposition plays a very small role in our addiction. In other words, we were not born this way but developed this way due to our environment. For parents this is particularly important bc by changing our habits we can effectively brake the cycle for our kids.
I'll agree that you're more predisposed to drink if you grow up in a family that abuses alcohol but just like anything else that's studied, nothing is an absolute when it comes to this addiction or any other.
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I was inculcated culturally from childhood that alcohol was how you coped with life.
I had genetic predisposition (if you believe in that sort of thing) from Native American / Scotch-Irish bloodlines and two alcoholic parents.
My mother didn't get that fussed when I started drinking around age 16. I kept a bottle of Stoly in my room in fact that she knew about.
She didn't approve, but wasn't enough of a hypocrite given how much she was drinking to tell me drinking was wrong.
She did warn me repeatedly through the years that I had the alcoholic "gene" and should watch out.
I see myself as a Nature & Nurture Alkie:
I was kind of doomed, and doomed myself further by bad choices.
I think using myself as aneccdotal evidence, I certainly have rewired my brain through the years.
The nature of my buzz changed, how much alcohol I drank escalated and then devolved.
This last relapse brought it home. Almost no "happy" time before crashing, and a sense that my body was not processing the alcohol as it once did.
I no longer believe moderation is possible for me in any form. I'm just done with it now.
I had no sense of "do over" from not drinking for so long. Just right back in the dirty mix where I had left off two years before. Others note that too. It suggests my wiring did not "fix itself" during that time.
So am I a broken drinker or fixed sober person
?
I had genetic predisposition (if you believe in that sort of thing) from Native American / Scotch-Irish bloodlines and two alcoholic parents.
My mother didn't get that fussed when I started drinking around age 16. I kept a bottle of Stoly in my room in fact that she knew about.
She didn't approve, but wasn't enough of a hypocrite given how much she was drinking to tell me drinking was wrong.
She did warn me repeatedly through the years that I had the alcoholic "gene" and should watch out.
I see myself as a Nature & Nurture Alkie:
I was kind of doomed, and doomed myself further by bad choices.
I think using myself as aneccdotal evidence, I certainly have rewired my brain through the years.
The nature of my buzz changed, how much alcohol I drank escalated and then devolved.
This last relapse brought it home. Almost no "happy" time before crashing, and a sense that my body was not processing the alcohol as it once did.
I no longer believe moderation is possible for me in any form. I'm just done with it now.
I had no sense of "do over" from not drinking for so long. Just right back in the dirty mix where I had left off two years before. Others note that too. It suggests my wiring did not "fix itself" during that time.
So am I a broken drinker or fixed sober person
?
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Alcoholism is essentially a impairment, misalignment, disease of the body, mind and spirit. The allergy model can also be applied. Statistics aside, moderation never worked for me. I tried that for 25 years. I guess that as some people can smoke two packets a day and live to 90 and that the miner who was covered in asbestos every day for decades never got sick while his wife who did the laundry died of asbestosis, there will always be people that will beat the odds. If I was told that after 16 months of abstinence I could try some controlled drinking without a return to compulsive drinking I would be happy for the next guy to try and prove me wrong but I won't do it. The spiritual part of my recovery won't let me fall for that trick again.
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I drank to get drunk. I smoked dope, to get high. Thus, moderation has never made sense to me. Laying down in bed with the devil and telling him we're not going to phuck is a recipe for disaster. I'd rather just keep walking right on by his house.
In my opinion, life is simple. We make it complicated.
In my opinion, life is simple. We make it complicated.
Its a cold and its a broken hallelujah.
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My parents were both alcoholics. My sister was an addict and alcoholic who died as a result. I have an paternal uncle who was a transient and froze to death because of alcohol. A paternal aunt who drinks gin martinis in the morning. And paternal cousins who both have one foot in the grave.
My family used alcohol for everything. So yes, it was environmental as well.
On paper, I am relatively accomplished inspite of killing myself almost daily. But I have never failed at anything like I did at moderation.
My family used alcohol for everything. So yes, it was environmental as well.
On paper, I am relatively accomplished inspite of killing myself almost daily. But I have never failed at anything like I did at moderation.
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LB - it has nothing to do with whether your adopted parents drank or not. It is my opinion if you are an alcoholic that if I gave your heroine or cocaine or crystal meth you would become addicted to these substances too. The addiction is not to the drug itself its in the elation and escape that comes from using the drug. The addiction in my opinion is in the way your brain developed, something occurred during the development you my brain that makes me as an addict cope to get a high to escape. This is true fro all addicts. It is not genetics, you were born this way. This could be as simple as you mom not providing love or touch early on or as severe as being raped and beaten as a child. Many may disagree but my opinion seems to be supported with recent advances in peer reviewed medical journals NEJM. In fact in the last decade the research around addiction has shifted from nature to nurture - I am happy to provide references for those that have interest.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced, which makes moderation for the addict biologically impossible. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced, which makes moderation for the addict biologically impossible. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
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LB - it has nothing to do with whether your adopted parents drank or not. It is my opinion if you are an alcoholic that if I gave your heroine or cocaine or crystal meth you would become addicted to these substances. The addiction is not to the drug or exposure to the drug. The addiction in my opinion is in the way your brain developed, like mine - again assuming you are an alcoholic and an addict, like I am. Many may disagree but my opinion seems to be supported with recent advances in peer reviewed medical journals.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Detachement from a parent, abandonment, high stress (parents that yell) during the early years of development I believe are what lead us towards being more inclined to become an addict. Abuses, physical or sexual is often a cause and can manifest in how strong your addiction becomes. Again, these are my opinions but I believe I can support my hypothesis.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Detachement from a parent, abandonment, high stress (parents that yell) during the early years of development I believe are what lead us towards being more inclined to become an addict. Abuses, physical or sexual is often a cause and can manifest in how strong your addiction becomes. Again, these are my opinions but I believe I can support my hypothesis.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
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Always an interesting topic, thanks for your thoughts.
I grew up in a family that was mostly teetotal. My dad drank some beer on weekends and wine with dinner, but nothing excessive. He doesn't really drink at all now. My mom drank maybe 2/3 times a year on special occasions. My three siblings don't drink.
I knew nothing about alcoholism, was very much against mind altering substances as a teenager, and was raised to see drunkenness as something awful.
I absolutely was not raised in an environment that supported drinking at all. But from the very first sip of alcohol I was hooked and I developed into an alcoholic in a very, very short period of time.
I never knew why I had developed into an alcoholic but recently found out all of my dad's uncles (who I never knew) were raging alcoholics. So I guess in my case it was just the right combination of genetics and personality?
Anecdotal I know, but I think it's important to remember that some people can be "raised right" and still develop an addiction. It's a pretty complicated illness/disorder/whateveryouwanttocallit.
I grew up in a family that was mostly teetotal. My dad drank some beer on weekends and wine with dinner, but nothing excessive. He doesn't really drink at all now. My mom drank maybe 2/3 times a year on special occasions. My three siblings don't drink.
I knew nothing about alcoholism, was very much against mind altering substances as a teenager, and was raised to see drunkenness as something awful.
I absolutely was not raised in an environment that supported drinking at all. But from the very first sip of alcohol I was hooked and I developed into an alcoholic in a very, very short period of time.
I never knew why I had developed into an alcoholic but recently found out all of my dad's uncles (who I never knew) were raging alcoholics. So I guess in my case it was just the right combination of genetics and personality?
Anecdotal I know, but I think it's important to remember that some people can be "raised right" and still develop an addiction. It's a pretty complicated illness/disorder/whateveryouwanttocallit.
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I see many post about how the addict wants to moderate or if they can moderate. For the addict (I include alcoholic as an addict - no difference) science has now shown this task is not biologically possible due to brain development.
yes; there are many posts like that. for me, i never really tried the moderating of number of drinks, as i always wanted to get drunk.what i did try over and over to moderate was the number of occasions. trying to keep it to one day a week, for example. or only on holidays. or only with others. i never could stick to any of the decisions i made around that. never.
when i think of "moderating" i think that "normal" drinkers don't moderate, nor do they try to. the moderating thing only applies to people who can't, it seems.the moderating attempts were/are, IMO, all about being "normal".not having the relationship with alcohol that i, in fact, had.
and i've never been terrifically interested in the science of it all, not because it isn't interesting or valuable, but because the answer i really needed was not in science, but in me.
i needed to know viscerally that indeed i could not moderate. that indeed i was not in charge anymore. that i didn't have control.
science telling me whether it's possible or not wasn't/isn't what was useful to me; my own experience had to show me the truth of that.
and in no way am i arguing against science.
just that for THIS, the knowledge had to be from my experience.
yes; there are many posts like that. for me, i never really tried the moderating of number of drinks, as i always wanted to get drunk.what i did try over and over to moderate was the number of occasions. trying to keep it to one day a week, for example. or only on holidays. or only with others. i never could stick to any of the decisions i made around that. never.
when i think of "moderating" i think that "normal" drinkers don't moderate, nor do they try to. the moderating thing only applies to people who can't, it seems.the moderating attempts were/are, IMO, all about being "normal".not having the relationship with alcohol that i, in fact, had.
and i've never been terrifically interested in the science of it all, not because it isn't interesting or valuable, but because the answer i really needed was not in science, but in me.
i needed to know viscerally that indeed i could not moderate. that indeed i was not in charge anymore. that i didn't have control.
science telling me whether it's possible or not wasn't/isn't what was useful to me; my own experience had to show me the truth of that.
and in no way am i arguing against science.
just that for THIS, the knowledge had to be from my experience.
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It has nothing to do with your siblings being alcoholics. It has more to do with your mother not holding you enough as a baby of being stressed out. It has to do with how your brain develops as a child and the stress, trauma, love attachment you have with at least one stable parental figure. If you raped and beaten as a child. It has nothing to do with alcohol vs crystal meth or heroine. If you are an alcoholic, which I see as a form of addiction you use the drug of choice to escape. You change your brain so you cannot moderate because that part of the brain has been rewired. This also means you can't trade one addiction for another or you get on the merrygoround. It has everything to do with how you developed and the brain you have now - some repair is possible though.
Sorry if I was unclear with my first two posts. This is all my opinion but also seems to be support in recent peer reviewed medical journals from renowned medical professionals around the World.
I am not trying to moderate!
I am not trying to diminish the importance of the spiritual aspect. I was trying to share my experience as I have been studying more about the science.
Sorry if I was unclear with my first two posts. This is all my opinion but also seems to be support in recent peer reviewed medical journals from renowned medical professionals around the World.
I am not trying to moderate!
I am not trying to diminish the importance of the spiritual aspect. I was trying to share my experience as I have been studying more about the science.
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There are two schools of thought on the subject .
Nature vs Nuture , basically the thought was the environment a child was raised in has a more important part in his success in life .
One point to think about alcoholic parents pass on the gene for addaction and the sight of drunk parents daily .
Does moderation work ?The jury is still out on that one -imo .
I know I cant moderate Copenhagen ,its all in or all out .
Nature vs Nuture , basically the thought was the environment a child was raised in has a more important part in his success in life .
One point to think about alcoholic parents pass on the gene for addaction and the sight of drunk parents daily .
Does moderation work ?The jury is still out on that one -imo .
I know I cant moderate Copenhagen ,its all in or all out .
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Originally Posted by jdooner
LB - it has nothing to do with whether your adopted parents drank or not. It is my opinion if you are an alcoholic that if I gave your heroine or cocaine or crystal meth you would become addicted to these substances. The addiction is not to the drug or exposure to the drug. The addiction in my opinion is in the way your brain developed, like mine - again assuming you are an alcoholic and an addict, like I am. Many may disagree but my opinion seems to be supported with recent advances in peer reviewed medical journals.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Detachement from a parent, abandonment, high stress (parents that yell) during the early years of development I believe are what lead us towards being more inclined to become an addict. Abuses, physical or sexual is often a cause and can manifest in how strong your addiction becomes. Again, these are my opinions but I believe I can support my hypothesis.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
This means that your proclivity towards alcohol was set in motion in your early years most likely and then activated late in life by using alcohol to cope. Along this path you changed your brain chemistry, like me so that the ability to make rational decisions is reduced. This is my hypothesis anyhow.
Detachement from a parent, abandonment, high stress (parents that yell) during the early years of development I believe are what lead us towards being more inclined to become an addict. Abuses, physical or sexual is often a cause and can manifest in how strong your addiction becomes. Again, these are my opinions but I believe I can support my hypothesis.
Amajorityofone & Johno1967 - whatever works for you guys - I am not knocking your plans but your keeping it simple is simply not digging in deeper to modern science.
BTW - I am not trying to recommend or even question the idea or concept of moderation. In fact, my post is highlighting how moderation is flawed based on biology.
There is some logic to support the addactive personality ,But I don't get addacited to Xanax , or other things besides snuff .
I don't like the effects of other things ,In fact hydrocodone is very unplesent to me ,As are other RX meds .
I never liked the effect of other substances .
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This is something I have thought about. I abused benzos and Ambien but have not had a single craving for them since I got clean and sober.I feel like they were side dishes but not the main course. I was using them to manage hangovers and a sleep schedule that was completely screwed up because of drinking. I would never fool with them again because I would worry that they would trigger me, but I am finding it interesting that as a stand alone they have no appeal.
When I was looking at rehabs this summer my therapist suggested one because I have a chronic pain issue too, so she wanted me to go for dual treatment. I decided against one spot because the more I read it seemed to me that most people were there because they had developed an opiate addiction as a result of surgery/accident etc. But I wonder if people who get addicted to opiates would have had a substance problem if it had not been introduced to them as part of a medical protocol. I know there are people who seek out opiates initially purely because they are wired like I am…but what about people who get addicted because it was introduced to them to help solve a problem? Do you think they would have been addicts or did that aspect develop because their brains changed because it was administered…that thought seems to run parallel to the OP comments about dopamine receptors. I would be curious as to other's thoughts on this.
Since I got sober the olny craving I have had is for wine, and I mostly drank vodka in the last 6 months before I quit. That tells me that I am also craving sugar. But I am curious about the fact that I have not had a single craving for any other substance (apart from caffeine). I am just throwing the opiate question out there because I have always wondered if the medical use of that class actually creates addicts, not all of course, but a significant amount enough to at least catch my attention.
I don't want to fire up the discussion about drugs of choice…but another question I would love to hear others thoughts on is ..do different personality types seek different types of substances. I hate, hate, hate pot, cigarettes, yuck. I was definitely looking for downers..benzos, alcohol…I was looking for an escape from the hyper vigilance that developed during a traumatic upbringing. So I am curious about why I was drawn to one substance and others to another...
When I was looking at rehabs this summer my therapist suggested one because I have a chronic pain issue too, so she wanted me to go for dual treatment. I decided against one spot because the more I read it seemed to me that most people were there because they had developed an opiate addiction as a result of surgery/accident etc. But I wonder if people who get addicted to opiates would have had a substance problem if it had not been introduced to them as part of a medical protocol. I know there are people who seek out opiates initially purely because they are wired like I am…but what about people who get addicted because it was introduced to them to help solve a problem? Do you think they would have been addicts or did that aspect develop because their brains changed because it was administered…that thought seems to run parallel to the OP comments about dopamine receptors. I would be curious as to other's thoughts on this.
Since I got sober the olny craving I have had is for wine, and I mostly drank vodka in the last 6 months before I quit. That tells me that I am also craving sugar. But I am curious about the fact that I have not had a single craving for any other substance (apart from caffeine). I am just throwing the opiate question out there because I have always wondered if the medical use of that class actually creates addicts, not all of course, but a significant amount enough to at least catch my attention.
I don't want to fire up the discussion about drugs of choice…but another question I would love to hear others thoughts on is ..do different personality types seek different types of substances. I hate, hate, hate pot, cigarettes, yuck. I was definitely looking for downers..benzos, alcohol…I was looking for an escape from the hyper vigilance that developed during a traumatic upbringing. So I am curious about why I was drawn to one substance and others to another...
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Originally Posted by jaynie04
I don't want to fire up the discussion about drugs of choice…but another question I would love to hear others thoughts on is ..do different personality types seek different types of substances. I hate, hate, hate pot, cigarettes, yuck...
prescribed to children that supposedly have adhd because speed for them actually calms them down and helps them focus. Cocaine is a huge upper but actually makes some people very calm and some a paranoid mess. I was like you my doc was booze with a side dish of opiates. i cut the
opiates off pretty quick because what i was feeling from it was bordering on a religious experience..i knew that was no bueno
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Well I am not a medical doctor either but this does interest me.
As I understand it Alcohol has some influence on the dopamine system, but it is not there its primarily impact is – alcohol has a very complex chemical impact on the brain.
Food, nicotine, gambling, cocaine and amphetamines do primarily impact the dopamine system. Some behaviorist have moved away from calling the dopamine system the reward system to seeking system – that makes a lot sense to me.
You are using this mechanism when you are training animals with positive reinforcement. I have had motivated dogs that would work and work for hours, where the work for the reward was much more rewarding than the reward, an occasional reward was though needed to keep the motivation high.
If you have trained a habit in an animal it takes long time to extinguish the habit and only one reward to be back to start. It also gets progressively more difficult to extinguish a habit.
If you have a dog that barks for attention and you want to extinguish the behavior by ignoring it. And first time you give in after a week, next time you give in after two weeks – you would be training its stamina and making it more difficult to the extinguish behavior. You can do the same thing positive of course.
I have no data that say the same thing is in play when we give into addiction, but I do personally feel it is. Every time I would give into to cravings or try to moderate I think I would be making my battle more difficult … prolonging the extinction .
It is a very powerful system to use to train habits in animals – and addicts I think.
As I understand it Alcohol has some influence on the dopamine system, but it is not there its primarily impact is – alcohol has a very complex chemical impact on the brain.
Food, nicotine, gambling, cocaine and amphetamines do primarily impact the dopamine system. Some behaviorist have moved away from calling the dopamine system the reward system to seeking system – that makes a lot sense to me.
You are using this mechanism when you are training animals with positive reinforcement. I have had motivated dogs that would work and work for hours, where the work for the reward was much more rewarding than the reward, an occasional reward was though needed to keep the motivation high.
If you have trained a habit in an animal it takes long time to extinguish the habit and only one reward to be back to start. It also gets progressively more difficult to extinguish a habit.
If you have a dog that barks for attention and you want to extinguish the behavior by ignoring it. And first time you give in after a week, next time you give in after two weeks – you would be training its stamina and making it more difficult to the extinguish behavior. You can do the same thing positive of course.
I have no data that say the same thing is in play when we give into addiction, but I do personally feel it is. Every time I would give into to cravings or try to moderate I think I would be making my battle more difficult … prolonging the extinction .
It is a very powerful system to use to train habits in animals – and addicts I think.
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I will add this ,Nicotine is very difficult to get away from for me .
I work long hours ,and several days a week get up at 4 am .
The nicotine kick from a pinch of Copenhagen is a necessaty -in my mind
I work long hours ,and several days a week get up at 4 am .
The nicotine kick from a pinch of Copenhagen is a necessaty -in my mind
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