alphaomega

I hate pot. Don't get a high off of opiates either, just itchy. My benzo usage was only to attempt to erradicate the god awful hangovers that rendered me incapacitated for days on end.

I have smoked one cigarette since getting sober and hated it. And took one benzo because I was with my trigger - I mean mother because she literally makes me loco. And have zero desire for more of either.

Never did coke, shrooms, acid, X, etc. and never desired to although they were plentiful in college. Was prescribed hydrocodone syrup for severe bronchitis and threw it out.

I hate pharma drugs for obvious reasons (sister was a pharmacist).

I doubt I could ever be addicted to anything other than alcohol.

So, no, JD, an addict is not an addict is not an addict in my case.
But I am one hellova alcoholic. That is for damn sure.

hopeful4

I can only attest that moderation does not work based on the posts here. If you look at how many have tried moderation....and failed....it shows it does not work.

foolsgold66

The stuff about the brain is a 'nobrainer' to me just based on observation. Unfortunately, that helps not one damn bit in staying sober. Once again, I was promised flying cars and no one has even cured the common cold. We are just barely outta the caves.

RobbyRobot

I'm much more for agreeing that how we thrive and survive in our environment as we develop has the majority of influence on how we get on as adults. Genetics are important of course on so many levels for defining us generally, yet addiction science as we all know is not limited to the confines of genetics. Addiction dynamics are very inter-active with the addict and this explains why we can choose to quit our addictions and yet some of us continue to struggle on to death nonetheless as if the choices to quit are meaningless.

I too agree the spiritual aspect can play a critical role for those who have such a perspective. I will say for those who are not spiritually minded there is no critical need of a spiritual sobriety to successfully quit and sustain that quit ongoing. Spirituality is a choice made freely, imo. I was entirely agnostic when I last quit. I since have become a spiritually aware person, but my addiction recovery it self remains agnostic in my own personal understanding - ie I do have a Higher Power for my alcoholism, and my understanding is that sobriety itself is my HP. My Christianity offers me empowerment on my entire life, while be recovered from alcoholism by way of sobriety is simply a part of my entire wholesomeness.

I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict. Alcohol is no less a drug than is any other abused drug. Socially alcohol is a different experience in the environment then other drugs, and these differences really put alcohol into a different class of addiction in keeping with how the environment plays such an import dynamic role in addiction and in recovery as well.

I believe being naïve in early recovery is more a benefit than is being too confident and in lock-step with any established system or theory, here again because addiction and recovery are dynamically and interdependent within our own selves. We really do make all the difference in so many personal ways just how addiction and recovery is experienced in our own lives and collectively in our society.

Great thread for discussion. Thanks for that, JD.

RobbyRobot

Flying cars are cool. Can't wait, lol.

There really are a lot of promises offered for the person who quits, and its no small matter when such promises don't manifest in ways as advertised. I think though we're a little more than just outta the caves, lol. I'm thinking when things don't go well in recovery, then something isn't working well enough, and not that recovery doesn't work, but more that how we recovery has great personal importance to each of us, and so such decisions are best made freely and with an open-minded approach.

Experience is everything, and all to often we can overlook our own uniqueness as we try to fit ourselves into whatever in ways that don't really do us justice.

soberhawk

I do not know whether you know these statistics from the vietnam war.

What Vietnam Taught Us About Breaking Bad Habits : Shots - Health News : NPR


I have read different interpretation of this and it can be explained in different ways.

One way to explain it is the high recovery rate for soldiers from the Vietnam war compared with recovery rates from addicts in general – is that people who go the addict way (like us) are more prone to addiction. If you take a sample from general public put them in a stressful environment many chose to give into addiction, if you remove the stress most of them recover – but not all.

I have read animal studies that have pointed in same direction.

foolsgold66

Your points are well taken. Except the caves part. Part of the human race still doesn't have indoor plumbing.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, and its really to our shame isn't it? We are out of the caves, and yet our mentality for free enterprise being the responsibility of the individual keeps billions of people in dire straits while billions of others prosper.

Paradox.

jdooner

The shot answer is yes. There are three dominant brains systems involved in addiction: 1) opioid attachment-reward system; 2) dopamine-based incentive-motivation apparatus; and 3) self-regulation areas of the prefrontal cortex. Recent research also suggests a fourth which is the stress-response mechanism.

Much of this is coming from Gabor Mator's two books In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts and Scattered Brains. I employ you to read them if you have not - I find it life changing. Anyhow, current theory suggests its not about genes its about how your brain developed. Think of a grain of wheat - exposed to different elements, soil, rain sun both may grow radically different (that metaphor is for you Karate). Human brains are the most underdeveloped brains at birth. The reason is we could not fit through the birth canal with a fully developed brain. So infants and children develop 90% of their brain function by 3 years old. Based on environmental stimuli each of us develop differently. Based on what is deficient determines your proclivity towards a certain addiction. For example, children that did not get loving nurture may find opiates based drugs to be more appealing than say stimulants such as cocaine, meth, alcohol or even shopping, eating or gambling.

So much of recovery is focused on theory, spirituality, I thought it might be useful not as a disparaging technique but provide what I am learning on the scientific side. This is all readily available in many books and becoming more common in the medical community with peer reviewed studies in rats, mice and humans to support this idea.

LEt me edit as I just read some other posts...this is one dimension to a complex disease. I do not believe for a minute that understanding the biology suggests a lack of spiritual growth, in fact quite the opposite. Another member pointed out in a recovery thread I started that this is not in a vacuum meaning we get biological positive reaction being in a community of like minded individuals. As I type now there is a reaction occurring because I feel I am part of this group. This is one of the main tenants of AA and frankly where other non group based program I think miss a critical point. Believing in something greater than yourself is going to provide more biological feedback too. To go back to the Elephant analogy, my point it we have been discussing the trunk and toros, maybe the biology is a view at the legs and underbody?

I agree with you Robby in the beginning head down keeping sober is best - too much knowledge might not be a good thing. However, as we become more aware, I believe knowledge is a currency worth more than gold.

soberhawk

Gabor is very fond of the idea that it is early development that creates unbalance in the brain. I think he is right that early development is important - but I did find it partly ideological that he did not want the genes to play a part – I respect that, I am not sure I was convinced though.

jdooner

We all have agendas, which is why context is important. To me much of what i am learning is making sense though. That is all that matters is its working for me, so I wanted to share my experience.

Interesting on genes - the SR survey targeting a population of addicts here shows a 1/3 of the group did not have alcoholic parents. Interesting. I am also open to the fact that genetic predisposition has been difficult to prove genetically so the medical community has rethought and perhaps environmental development is convenient? Not sure but much is working for me.

foolsgold66

JD - honest question - how does this help you stay sober? All it does for me is expand my knowledge of the lizard biology that is supposed to keep me alive but ends up working against me. I can't connect that to the task myself.

RobbyRobot

Not to answer for JD, but science knowledge and investigation for me brings confidence and reason into play. I'm all for quitting, but sooner than later the quit is over, and getting on with life is the thing to do. Staying sober isn't as hard as one might think when they first start. As we progress in our sober experience we learn at exponential rates and in any event science is really an unstoppable powerhouse on our lives be us drunk or sober. Science isn't going away, so I'm an early adopter, lol.

caboblanco

what is the lizard biology?

jdooner

^

FG what Robby said and I would add part of recovery, at least for me is the forward progress. If life sober is worse than life drunk you will go back to drinking. So learning more, having your brain feel like it has more capacity, being part of a group or community, this for me is all part of a better life. Having a more enriched and rewarding sober life keeps me sober.

foolsgold66

Well, to reduce it to the most basic, the idea is that natural selection has caused the things that best allow us to survive and reproduce to be most pleasurable. Sex is the best example. Why does a dumb lizard want to have sex? Because it is pleasurable.

foolsgold66

JD and Robby, I respect your answers, they just don't add anything new for me, I guess. To be direct, I know that stuff drunk. Please don't take these comments as hostile, I'm really trying to grip what you see as added value.

jdooner

None taken on my end and I doubt Robby will either. I care about you FG and its sucks to see you struggling. Maybe this is part of the struggle though?

I on the other hand feel like I have turned a corner and my sober life is starting to gel. Its all about what works for us. I do believe the lifestyle change that AA promotes is critical to building a new sober life for me. For me this is just one aspect of a multidimensional program and its working. We will see in a year or ten and who knows. I hope to post about my journey on this site as I go fwd in the hope that maybe something I say plants a seed that germinates for someone...

^^^
I used to think I knew everything too though. Analyze your word choice to cabo. Its interesting some of the smartest men and women in the World are working on this what you define as Lizard science but you act as if this is child's play. But yet you struggle to stay sober...go figure?

foolsgold66

Hmmm. You missed the smiley, didn't try to answer my question, and took the worst possible connotation of my explanation to cabo, and my additional question, and refer to me as struggling to stay sober. I guess I'm ok with that if it helps you stay sober.

caboblanco

i read an article once about the reptilian mind. Man I don't really remember what it was about..but it was pretty crazy stuff. I do think human intellect interferes with primal urges. I would hope so anyway