Becoming someone who does not drink
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
It's much more acceptable to be an abstainer now than when I was younger. People at my age (49 yo) don't tend to question one's motives for passing on booze. And those who do are not the type I'd care to be around.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
The way I say things in my own head does affect how I respond to them, and I have found it useful for me to rephrase things.
I no longer say "I am sad" because sadness is NOT what I am...I feel sad.
semantics to someone else, but I'm the one who lives with my brain, so I have to speak to it in a language I understand.
My brain used to say "I want to die" but what I really want is to feel differently than I feel, it helps me to say "I don't like feeling this way" rather than "I wish I were dead"
Like others have said, I can drink. But I don't because I found it doesn't agree with my desired quality of life.
My substance abuse issues were once one of the most significant things about me. But now my lack of substance abuse issues, has made them a non issue. I do work on recovery, but I've gotten to a point where I don't really have to work at not drinking/drugging.
It doesn't define me, cripple me, or hamper my enjoyment of life.
I no longer say "I am sad" because sadness is NOT what I am...I feel sad.
semantics to someone else, but I'm the one who lives with my brain, so I have to speak to it in a language I understand.
My brain used to say "I want to die" but what I really want is to feel differently than I feel, it helps me to say "I don't like feeling this way" rather than "I wish I were dead"
Like others have said, I can drink. But I don't because I found it doesn't agree with my desired quality of life.
My substance abuse issues were once one of the most significant things about me. But now my lack of substance abuse issues, has made them a non issue. I do work on recovery, but I've gotten to a point where I don't really have to work at not drinking/drugging.
It doesn't define me, cripple me, or hamper my enjoyment of life.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by jdooner 
It also begs the question what is the definition of an Alcoholic? The DSM has not clinical definition. In fact the noun form the word does not exist. The clinical definitions are Alcohol Abuse and Alcohol Dependent. So do labels help or stifle growth as we begin to recover?
I think labels can both help and or hinder, depending on a persons take on their own experiences. It is a common truth labels are a norm in our society. Without labels, we would not have society. Its also true that all labels can be inversed, and from this inversion, they can be applied negatively against individuals, collectives, classes, and whatever else etc.
I'm a right-leg amputee. I require something in addition to other then my own self to walk or otherwise successfully move about in my life in society. Most people simply just move about on their own. So the moment amputee describes me, the label also describes those that are not amputees. This is the paradox of labels - a label never just defines itself. It also defines what it is not. This understanding is important.
Is being an amputee contributing to stifling me? Or helping me? is the question even worth asking? We all have something shared with others about ourselves which is a normalcy within collective humanity. Goes without saying, we all also have much which makes us different then the next guy too. Real life is a wonderful blend of sameness and uniqueness for each and everyone of us, and so "labels" or whatever else we may want to use as "descriptors" of our differences, and sameness, will always be important in a rational world.
Interesting thread. For the record, I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict, no less, lol.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Gulf Coast, Florida USA
Posts: 5,731
For me I like to keep the fear in the forefront of my mind. Just like I know if I run out into the street I can get hit by a car, For me I must not ever forget where that 1st drink leads and has lead me in the past and will lead me again if I pick up.
Very thought provoking thread though ty jdooner
Very thought provoking thread though ty jdooner
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,426
I agree with deeker jdooner--very interesting topic.
I posted to a young man sometime back on the site who said he wanted
to be "brainwashed by his detox center" so that he wouldn't drink anymore.
I suggested to him that giving up his own Agency would not yield positive results.
To be the Agent in your life is the grammatical equivalent to being the Subject (not the Object) of a sentence.
The Agent acts, and that is always been my feeling about choosing sobriety or choosing alcohol. Thus, a little more grammar to go with your earlier semantic analysis may help:
I have chosen (present perfect tense) to no longer drink alcohol. Every day I choose (simple present) not to drink. Grammatically, the former statement means in the past, up to the present, and hopefully into the future. The latter statement means only at that moment--the X on the timeline meaning right now.
Both of these tenses are "uncertain" and require constant upkeep or they may be subject to revision. I may drink in the next moment in either case.
What I want to achieve, and the thing I think you are also after jdooner, is to move from present / present perfect tense to simple past tense: "I don't / chose not to drink". In this case, there is no uncertainty about outcome. It has already been decided by you, the Agent, so you don't have to spend time worrying about or maintaining that outcome.
You are not the Object of alcohol (the "I am powerless" stuff) but the Subject that removes it from your life. End of alcohol story, beginning of your better story.
Perhaps I'm rambling, but language is, after all, how we negotiate meaning not only
with others but for ourselves. So words, and how they are ordered, help us define
who we are as well as our aspirational selves.
With the shift of identity of ourselves as sober people, we are breaking new ground.
Geez. All that edjamacation didn't totally go to waste. . .
I posted to a young man sometime back on the site who said he wanted
to be "brainwashed by his detox center" so that he wouldn't drink anymore.
I suggested to him that giving up his own Agency would not yield positive results.
To be the Agent in your life is the grammatical equivalent to being the Subject (not the Object) of a sentence.
The Agent acts, and that is always been my feeling about choosing sobriety or choosing alcohol. Thus, a little more grammar to go with your earlier semantic analysis may help:
I have chosen (present perfect tense) to no longer drink alcohol. Every day I choose (simple present) not to drink. Grammatically, the former statement means in the past, up to the present, and hopefully into the future. The latter statement means only at that moment--the X on the timeline meaning right now.
Both of these tenses are "uncertain" and require constant upkeep or they may be subject to revision. I may drink in the next moment in either case.
What I want to achieve, and the thing I think you are also after jdooner, is to move from present / present perfect tense to simple past tense: "I don't / chose not to drink". In this case, there is no uncertainty about outcome. It has already been decided by you, the Agent, so you don't have to spend time worrying about or maintaining that outcome.
You are not the Object of alcohol (the "I am powerless" stuff) but the Subject that removes it from your life. End of alcohol story, beginning of your better story.
Perhaps I'm rambling, but language is, after all, how we negotiate meaning not only
with others but for ourselves. So words, and how they are ordered, help us define
who we are as well as our aspirational selves.
With the shift of identity of ourselves as sober people, we are breaking new ground.
Geez. All that edjamacation didn't totally go to waste. . .
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Thanks all. I attended my typical AA class tonight. For the record I have been reading through RR's The Little Book. The two programs are somewhat at odds in the underlying principles with the shared thread of sobriety but how you achieve the sobriety is quite different.
I am in a weird place right now. My therapist is suggesting because of my addictive personality that I use my awareness to not do the all or nothing. To continue to attend AA but in doing so is difficult bc there is a deprogramming that is occurring simultaneously as I adopt RR.
I just explained how I am feeling to my wife, as I write this response. Our children are well traveled. My wife and I always talk about how when we expose our children to different cultures they tend to grow immensely. We enjoy this and feel its healthy. I feel like I am in that spot with my recovery program. I am fearful of leaving the security of my AA safety blanket. But it is not helping anymore, if anything steps and meetings are actually stifling me. RR is much about self awareness and so I have to start trusting my own mind again - something AA discourages greatly written and practiced. But I also feel as though I am preparing myself for this next phase of growth.
I have been having more thoughts of drinking or the questioning of if I was ever an alcoholic. Could I one day drink again? I believe this is part of the deprogramming process that is occurring and quite natural, albeit somewhat scary. I rationally know that drinking does nothing positive for me nor will it ever - it was fun for a while and I enjoyed it, until it became its own beast and then stopped it.
Tonight at the Big Book study session I attended, I listened to the group talk about how they were all insane. Literally went around the room sharing stories of how they rationalized being insane - in fact, maybe they are as this thought process is insanity. One speaker spoke about how they cannot trust their own mind and its broken, as all ours are. They wallow in the negative - martyrs. I do believe this is a tenant of AA- you have to become the martyr so your higher power, which later is defined as God saves you.
I am afraid I am going to have to let my therapist know it is not possible to do both. I respectfully shared how I disagreed with this concept and was met with respect but disagreement. I understand, as questioning these things shakes the foundation that these people have found sobriety, which is not fair of me to them. I care about them and feel I am only doing a disservice to continue to attend.
At the same time I would be lying if I was not somewhat fearful of this unknown territory that I am entering/in.
Anyhow hopefully that helps explain where I am at in my journey and experience I am having.
Thanks
I am in a weird place right now. My therapist is suggesting because of my addictive personality that I use my awareness to not do the all or nothing. To continue to attend AA but in doing so is difficult bc there is a deprogramming that is occurring simultaneously as I adopt RR.
I just explained how I am feeling to my wife, as I write this response. Our children are well traveled. My wife and I always talk about how when we expose our children to different cultures they tend to grow immensely. We enjoy this and feel its healthy. I feel like I am in that spot with my recovery program. I am fearful of leaving the security of my AA safety blanket. But it is not helping anymore, if anything steps and meetings are actually stifling me. RR is much about self awareness and so I have to start trusting my own mind again - something AA discourages greatly written and practiced. But I also feel as though I am preparing myself for this next phase of growth.
I have been having more thoughts of drinking or the questioning of if I was ever an alcoholic. Could I one day drink again? I believe this is part of the deprogramming process that is occurring and quite natural, albeit somewhat scary. I rationally know that drinking does nothing positive for me nor will it ever - it was fun for a while and I enjoyed it, until it became its own beast and then stopped it.
Tonight at the Big Book study session I attended, I listened to the group talk about how they were all insane. Literally went around the room sharing stories of how they rationalized being insane - in fact, maybe they are as this thought process is insanity. One speaker spoke about how they cannot trust their own mind and its broken, as all ours are. They wallow in the negative - martyrs. I do believe this is a tenant of AA- you have to become the martyr so your higher power, which later is defined as God saves you.
I am afraid I am going to have to let my therapist know it is not possible to do both. I respectfully shared how I disagreed with this concept and was met with respect but disagreement. I understand, as questioning these things shakes the foundation that these people have found sobriety, which is not fair of me to them. I care about them and feel I am only doing a disservice to continue to attend.
At the same time I would be lying if I was not somewhat fearful of this unknown territory that I am entering/in.
Anyhow hopefully that helps explain where I am at in my journey and experience I am having.
Thanks
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by Hawkeye13
I agree with deeker jdooner--very interesting topic.
I posted to a young man sometime back on the site who said he wanted
to be "brainwashed by his detox center" so that he wouldn't drink anymore.
I suggested to him that giving up his own Agency would not yield positive results.
To be the Agent in your life is the grammatical equivalent to being the Subject (not the Object) of a sentence.
The Agent acts, and that is always been my feeling about choosing sobriety or choosing alcohol. Thus, a little more grammar to go with your earlier semantic analysis may help:
I have chosen (present perfect tense) to no longer drink alcohol. Every day I choose (simple present) not to drink. Grammatically, the former statement means in the past, up to the present, and hopefully into the future. The latter statement means only at that moment--the X on the timeline meaning right now.
Both of these tenses are "uncertain" and require constant upkeep or they may be subject to revision. I may drink in the next moment in either case.
What I want to achieve, and the thing I think you are also after jdooner, is to move from present / present perfect tense to simple past tense: "I don't / chose not to drink". In this case, there is no uncertainty about outcome. It has already been decided by you, the Agent, so you don't have to spend time worrying about or maintaining that outcome.
You are not the Object of alcohol (the "I am powerless" stuff) but the Subject that removes it from your life. End of alcohol story, beginning of your better story.
Perhaps I'm rambling, but language is, after all, how we negotiate meaning not only
with others but for ourselves. So words, and how they are ordered, help us define
who we are as well as our aspirational selves.
With the shift of identity of ourselves as sober people, we are breaking new ground.
Geez. All that edjamacation didn't totally go to waste. . .
think about what exactly
I posted to a young man sometime back on the site who said he wanted
to be "brainwashed by his detox center" so that he wouldn't drink anymore.
I suggested to him that giving up his own Agency would not yield positive results.
To be the Agent in your life is the grammatical equivalent to being the Subject (not the Object) of a sentence.
The Agent acts, and that is always been my feeling about choosing sobriety or choosing alcohol. Thus, a little more grammar to go with your earlier semantic analysis may help:
I have chosen (present perfect tense) to no longer drink alcohol. Every day I choose (simple present) not to drink. Grammatically, the former statement means in the past, up to the present, and hopefully into the future. The latter statement means only at that moment--the X on the timeline meaning right now.
Both of these tenses are "uncertain" and require constant upkeep or they may be subject to revision. I may drink in the next moment in either case.
What I want to achieve, and the thing I think you are also after jdooner, is to move from present / present perfect tense to simple past tense: "I don't / chose not to drink". In this case, there is no uncertainty about outcome. It has already been decided by you, the Agent, so you don't have to spend time worrying about or maintaining that outcome.
You are not the Object of alcohol (the "I am powerless" stuff) but the Subject that removes it from your life. End of alcohol story, beginning of your better story.
Perhaps I'm rambling, but language is, after all, how we negotiate meaning not only
with others but for ourselves. So words, and how they are ordered, help us define
who we are as well as our aspirational selves.
With the shift of identity of ourselves as sober people, we are breaking new ground.
Geez. All that edjamacation didn't totally go to waste. . .
think about what exactly
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,791
I just kinda wanna say, yep, non-drinker but not quite all the way. In my prior 8 years of sobriety I came awfully close to a new normal as a non-drinker. No AA, no recovery programs, hypnosis, ******, etc, just good satisfying living in general. Didn't want a drink, enjoyed clarity and sobriety, was successful and happy. Even counted myself grateful a few times, which is pretty rare for my genetic lottery results.
Along about year 4 there was a lot of calamity in my life, sickness, cancer, death, accidents, financial misfortune, lotta bad luck for me and mine. I was everybody's rock for almost 3 years and then I started sinking. A year went by pretty unhappily and then I drank again. It took me less than a year to go back to dangerously drunk.
My mistake was complacency, and not having any real support. What I learned is that I'm not a non-drinker, I'm a former drunk non-drinker. I can't unring that bell, ever. I've got to have some support and some sort of program. It doesn't necessarily have to be a lot, I don't think, and I'm not even sure that it matters what it is, as long as it is there, in my life. I just need enough reminders to keep me in tune to the fact that I'm not ever going to get that normal ever again.
Along about year 4 there was a lot of calamity in my life, sickness, cancer, death, accidents, financial misfortune, lotta bad luck for me and mine. I was everybody's rock for almost 3 years and then I started sinking. A year went by pretty unhappily and then I drank again. It took me less than a year to go back to dangerously drunk.
My mistake was complacency, and not having any real support. What I learned is that I'm not a non-drinker, I'm a former drunk non-drinker. I can't unring that bell, ever. I've got to have some support and some sort of program. It doesn't necessarily have to be a lot, I don't think, and I'm not even sure that it matters what it is, as long as it is there, in my life. I just need enough reminders to keep me in tune to the fact that I'm not ever going to get that normal ever again.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I think the present perfect tense, 'I have chosen not to drink' can indicate a recent event and still describe a completed action in the past as the simple past tense does. The present perfect also can indicate that there is a consequence in the present, and I feel that this is the way I say 'I have chosen not to drink'. Booyah! (I like adding the booyah at the end). The consequence of this past decision of course is sobriety in the present, and I will never now drink.
As for agency, I am all over that one. I made this choice. Me. The decision was made, a completed action, and the result is permanent, active at every present moment, and unconditional.
Thanks, Hawkeye, I enjoyed your post.
As for agency, I am all over that one. I made this choice. Me. The decision was made, a completed action, and the result is permanent, active at every present moment, and unconditional.
Thanks, Hawkeye, I enjoyed your post.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
I have been having more thoughts of drinking or the questioning of if I was ever an alcoholic. Could I one day drink again? I believe this is part of the deprogramming process that is occurring and quite natural, albeit somewhat scary.
Interesting thread btw, gave me a headache LOL.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by jdooner
I have been having more thoughts of drinking or the questioning of if I was ever an alcoholic. Could I one day drink again? I believe this is part of the deprogramming process that is occurring and quite natural, albeit somewhat scary. I rationally know that drinking does nothing positive for me nor will it ever - it was fun for a while and I enjoyed it, until it became its own beast and then stopped it.
...I do believe this is a tenant of AA- you have to become the martyr so your higher power, which later is defined as God saves you...
...I do believe this is a tenant of AA- you have to become the martyr so your higher power, which later is defined as God saves you...
AA isn't for everyone, and it never can be for everyone. Neither is RR for everyone, and never can be. This is not news, and its also not a true problem for anybody, unless one makes it into a problem for themselves. It is my experience that both AA and RR have not everything that I need to be all that I can be in my life. I'm not surprised. I'm a high level achiever, a loner, and both AA and RR are offered, in their respective ways, to the mass addictive populations. They are for the everyman and everywoman. Not unlike religion, lol.
I hope you don't end up as unsatisfied with RR as you now apparently have become with AA. If you do become so, please remember being unsatisfied is, at the end of the day a choice we make for ourselves, based on experiences we have -- and ironically, as well on experiences we don't have. Paradox. Well, that's the way I see it anyways.
I always take what I need out of whatever. Always. I pay it forward as much as I can, respective of where I'm at in my life presently. I'm of a mind to always do somewhat better at how well I pay it forward. Its a learned skill set for sure. I'm not really someone to say what doesn't work for me, because that conversation is always so loaded, what's the point I suppose? The other thing, is I choose to be an example of what works for me, and rather then try to get guys to do what I did (or do), I'm much more interested in helping others be all they can be for themselves in any way they may see fit. If it works for them, and they have sustainable success, then I'm more then happy to help them out. Without successful outcomes, there really isn't anything to work with anyways. Seriously.
I hope you find what you're searching for in your non-drinking lifestyle, jdooner. I hope you become more satisfied, and remain successful in your sobriety. Cheers!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,006
I call myself an alcoholic because it's just easier to say that amongst recovery people - I'm a booze hound! That's my thing. As opposed to drugs, or gambling or whatever. I am not hung up on that label, it doesn't mean much to me one way or another.
What I do feel strongly is that I can never drink safely. That is my working definition of what I am - I can never drink safely.
I don't know why I am this way, or why other people are the way they are.
I have come to this conclusion based on a close look at my drinking history: the patterns and the downward progression; and at the histories of other people: particularly focusing on the progressive nature - it gets worse over time, it does not get better on its own.
I don't know what the future holds - when will I be 'recovered'? I don't have strong feelings about that label either. The future is unknown - I am on a journey.
The only thing I know is that I can never, ever, drink safely.
What I do feel strongly is that I can never drink safely. That is my working definition of what I am - I can never drink safely.
I don't know why I am this way, or why other people are the way they are.
I have come to this conclusion based on a close look at my drinking history: the patterns and the downward progression; and at the histories of other people: particularly focusing on the progressive nature - it gets worse over time, it does not get better on its own.
I don't know what the future holds - when will I be 'recovered'? I don't have strong feelings about that label either. The future is unknown - I am on a journey.
The only thing I know is that I can never, ever, drink safely.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
In my opinion trying to use RR along with AA is not a good idea for most newly recovering people. There are way too many conflicts between the 2 programs. A person very good at "Take what works and leave the rest" could make it work but the conflicts are hard to ignore.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 480
I really love this thread.
I resonate with the "I CHOOSE" not to drink, as opposed to the I "CAN'T" drink. Of course...I CAN drink. I can drink right NOW if I want. I can drink tomorrow, then the next day, then the morning after that, followed by 98 drinks to cap the week off. But like others have said, perhaps its an ego/mental thing?, taking back the power...the CHOICE to drink or not drink. I don't know. Just makes it seem less dire.
I find myself growing weary of the constant battle of "can I or can't I" Will I be able to one day? Deep down (not even deep down, right on the f'ng top) I know that drinking is not an option for me so I guess I "cant" drink...if I want to be productive...if I want to be ME. I have learned this the hard way.
I am a mixed bag on this at the moment.LOL. Good food for thought though
I resonate with the "I CHOOSE" not to drink, as opposed to the I "CAN'T" drink. Of course...I CAN drink. I can drink right NOW if I want. I can drink tomorrow, then the next day, then the morning after that, followed by 98 drinks to cap the week off. But like others have said, perhaps its an ego/mental thing?, taking back the power...the CHOICE to drink or not drink. I don't know. Just makes it seem less dire.
I find myself growing weary of the constant battle of "can I or can't I" Will I be able to one day? Deep down (not even deep down, right on the f'ng top) I know that drinking is not an option for me so I guess I "cant" drink...if I want to be productive...if I want to be ME. I have learned this the hard way.
I am a mixed bag on this at the moment.LOL. Good food for thought though
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
I'm not a non-drinker, I'm a former drunk non-drinker.
this is from Foolsgold's post. sure i'm a non-drinker, an alcoholic non-drinker.
i pulled this quote out because a general non-drinker (one of my daughters, for example) is nothing like the way i am a non-drinker.
which is why i don't use the term "non-drinker" for myself. it's true, but not exact. it leaves out something monstrously important.
and i'm not talking about explaining to others, but about how i "label" myself to myself.
jdooner, you might find some stuff that's useful to you in "Robby's thread" in the Secular Connections part of the forum. don't know. when i was new to all this, i could only see one way, and trying to open the view only mucked me up then. but that may not be so with you.
this is from Foolsgold's post. sure i'm a non-drinker, an alcoholic non-drinker.
i pulled this quote out because a general non-drinker (one of my daughters, for example) is nothing like the way i am a non-drinker.
which is why i don't use the term "non-drinker" for myself. it's true, but not exact. it leaves out something monstrously important.
and i'm not talking about explaining to others, but about how i "label" myself to myself.
jdooner, you might find some stuff that's useful to you in "Robby's thread" in the Secular Connections part of the forum. don't know. when i was new to all this, i could only see one way, and trying to open the view only mucked me up then. but that may not be so with you.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 29
i quit drinking after i began blacking out more often. i never drank more than five times/month and i did not require detox to survive. i didn't want to drink anymore so i stopped. i was bad at drinking. really bad. but i stopped before it got much worse.
for me, i don't drink. sure, there are plenty of reasons why i don't, but it is as simple as that. i just don't drink. i can't have one potato chip either, so i stay away from those, too. if i skip the chip bowl, people don't notice. should they ever ask, that one is simple, too. i don't eat them. i just don't.
this isn't something i need to justify, either. i am fully aware of the situation and my choice to be teetotal is just that: my choice. you do or you don't.
for me, i don't drink. sure, there are plenty of reasons why i don't, but it is as simple as that. i just don't drink. i can't have one potato chip either, so i stay away from those, too. if i skip the chip bowl, people don't notice. should they ever ask, that one is simple, too. i don't eat them. i just don't.
this isn't something i need to justify, either. i am fully aware of the situation and my choice to be teetotal is just that: my choice. you do or you don't.
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