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AA Moving on

Old 01-03-2014, 02:55 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Aa is not the only way to get and stay sober , even for. "The real alcoholics" that people in the fellowship like to talk about. Aa is not a cult but there are definitely people that treat it like a cult. I am in aa, but these people creep me out. They have proven to be dangerous for dome, myself included. I have reached out to friends of mine who have left aa, but mostly it is they who don't seem to want to have anything to do with me after leaving aa. No harm done. There are multiple ways to find God. Aa offers just one way. If is my hope that you were not given a false notion of what true, genuine, aa is. Most of the people who have problems with aa don't really have problems with aa; they have problems with someone false idea of aa that they were given. I was badly burned by people in aa this way, because it was not authentic aa. I pray everyone who considers aa seek out the genuine message rather than a contaminated version of it.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:06 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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It's interesting for me to read that your experience is almost exactly what I believed would happen to me. Let us know how rational recovery works for you. I found for me that once I got more than 6 months sober my mental psyche changed and I didn't feel like I needed a daily enforcement program anymore. Sure, most of us need some kind of daily reminder which is why I still come to SR everyday.

While I was going to a counselor in my first 10 months he suggested AA on many occasions but I had that gut feeling about the cult atmosphere that I have heard it usually has. If it works for others than I say great and keep going if it makes you happy. I am just glad to be beyond the mental disturbances that make attending things like AA seem necessary.

Glad you made a choice for you that seems to be the right fit for you.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:15 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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"There are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same."

I can't entirely vouch for that - I can only comment on my view...

but my view looks pretty good, I'm sober, and I'm happy and my life has meaning. All boxes ticked.

Best wishes in finding your view of the moon JD

D
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jdooner View Post
My issues as I updated probably have more to do with the people I have come in contact with in the program - which is too bad. Who knows I may find RR does not do it for me and I return to AA? The good thing is I have what is required for membership - the desire to stop drinking - this will not change - ever!
Sounds like maybe you never found

"The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight."
(Doctors Opinion)

It took me about 20 different meeting locations before I found it myself.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:39 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Jdooner, wish you well with your choice. Like Dee said , the endgame is the view of the moon, and nobody can see it for you.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:43 PM
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I go back/forth with AA - sometimes I love it, sometimes I hate it. Of course I only have 4 months - so my brain is all over the map. I dont take myself or others too seriously. I think what you think JD - but not with all people in AA. I think I just haven't had enough time to make an educated decision. I do agree with Jo- why not try to finish the steps? Couldn't hurt.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:46 PM
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This is an important thread not because it brings attention of whatever is better then whatever for whomever -- but important because it clearly gives the message of having the freedom to chose for ourselves is absolutely essential if we are to be successful in quitting drinking and moving on with a better life. Cookie cutter monkey-see monkey-do behaviors don't work well in sustaining a post-drinking successful lifestyle. Its unimportant to me the nuts n bolts of any persons recovery. I'm always most interested in results - a before and after kind of appreciation. The proof is always in the pudding. People can't give what they don't have to give no matter what else they may be thinking of doing. Experience is everything.

There are as many ways forward into sobriety and abstinence as there are ideas to personalise our own lives. Its no secret most quitters quit on themselves sooner then later, and alcoholism is not an exception to the rule. What is also not a secret is persons who keep an open mind and an honest heart about themselves more often meet their challenges and win the day time and time again. Its all about perspective and actions taken to ensure ongoing responsibilities create realised rewards and earned consequences to the practitioner of whatever ways forward being chosen.

I'm an enthusiastic student of the "take what you need" school. I like to keep my options open and flexible. I like being out of the box. I'm overjoyed you are giving yourself as many ways to get the job done as you can manage, JD. Awesome!


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Old 01-04-2014, 01:55 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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You are sober, that is all that matters.

It does not really matter how we get there or how we stay there. To each his own.

I think everyone needs to find their own path and what works for them. I am happy you have found a path that works for you.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:08 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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you do what you gotta do - sorry to hear your experience was less than pleasant ... i would like to take the opportunity to say - when you get some spare time - go ahead and finish off the steps ... after doing it i found how it really applies to my life and not so much my drinking ...
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:50 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
This is an important thread not because it brings attention of whatever is better then whatever for whomever -- but important because it clearly gives the message of having the freedom to chose for ourselves is absolutely essential if we are to be successful in quitting drinking and moving on with a better life. Cookie cutter monkey-see monkey-do behaviors don't work well in sustaining a post-drinking successful lifestyle. Its unimportant to me the nuts n bolts of any persons recovery. I'm always most interested in results - a before and after kind of appreciation. The proof is always in the pudding. People can't give what they don't have to give no matter what else they may be thinking of doing. Experience is everything. There are as many ways forward into sobriety and abstinence as there are ideas to personalise our own lives. Its no secret most quitters quit on themselves sooner then later, and alcoholism is not an exception to the rule. What is also not a secret is persons who keep an open mind and an honest heart about themselves more often meet their challenges and win the day time and time again. Its all about perspective and actions taken to ensure ongoing responsibilities create realised rewards and earned consequences to the practitioner of whatever ways forward being chosen. I'm an enthusiastic student of the "take what you need" school. I like to keep my options open and flexible. I like being out of the box. I'm overjoyed you are giving yourself as many ways to get the job done as you can manage, JD. Awesome!
I completely agree Robby. A cookie cutter approach doesn't work. We're all different and different approaches work for different people. Like JD, I tried AA and it just wasn't for me....I tried a few different meetings to give it a chance. To be honest I really wanted to do this on my own (pride dare I say). What has been most effective for me has been Rational Recovery and using AVRT and of course SR.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:25 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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I tried AVRT and found it wasn't for me. I couldn't get with the program, mostly because I never experienced my addiction as a beast or an alcoholic voice. Nothing wrong with the program.

I found Addiction Alchemy, chakra work, and guided meditations a HUGE help to me...others find them senseless garbage.

Sometimes when I get a resentment, I run a step four on it, other times I write a Haiku about it.

I totally relate to what your therapist brought up about all/nothing thinking...that was a HUGE issue with me early on, and I didn't see it, once I came to see it...I can keep on the lookout and when I get into freak out mode and I can call BS on it.

I think that's one thing I like about even the name Addiction Alchemy...the concept of working with lots of different "tools" from various areas of life to reach the goal. Not a locked step, do THIS or die, method.
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:50 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jdooner View Post
Joe - I actually see much logic and sense in the 12 steps - I perhaps tend to migrate towards a more non secular 12 step approach though - but that s just me.

I don't take to AA bashing - like I said, AA has done wonders getting me sober, becoming more aware and spiritual. I will always be in debt to the program. My issues as I updated probably have more to do with the people I have come in contact with in the program - which is too bad. Who knows I may find RR does not do it for me and I return to AA? The good thing is I have what is required for membership - the desire to stop drinking - this will not change - ever!
LOL! The people really do mess up the meetings don't they! Years ago I used to go to lots of meetings and eventually I refused to attend open meetings at all and just went to 12 step, BB and Speaker meetings.

What helped me the most in my own journey as an ACOA and Alanon was actually XA Speakers and their speaker downloads. A lot of collective wisdom there that you can listen to in the car or on a run or wherever. I have listened to hundreds of talks on both the AA and Alanon side. Additionally there are 12 Step series on there and they are constantly adding talks for free download. NO people to mess up the meeting!

Since then I have done the steps with a sponsor, have done a ton of reading on the subject and for many years did a lot of counseling.

You are the person in complete control of YOUR recovery and how you design what works for you long term will change through the years. You have a great attitude now and being open to change and exploration is not a bad thing because experience is a great teacher. Just keep your pulse and if you need to plug in what worked for you in the beginning to make sure you don't go off track and you will be fine!
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:56 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
"There are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same."

I THIS!

jdooner, you have to do what works for you, there is no right or wrong way to do this! Here's the great thing about AA. If you do feel, sometime down the road, that a meeting is necessary there are plenty to go to. It doesn't hurt once in a while if you need a gentle reminder and a little path guidance.

As we grow we change, adaptation is sometimes necessary and it sounds like that's exactly what's happened for you.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:41 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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So first, let me thank all of you for your responses. SR means a lot to me and the wisdom shared is taken to heart.

I have been thinking much about my post, my decision, and my therapy session. So much good has come in the past 4 months. Literally everything in my life has improved, everything. I entered this program drinking +3L of vodka weekly, a marriage in shambles, bored with work, lonely with suicidal thoughts almost continuously.

I am now sober +4 months, falling back in love with my wife (less a burning flame and more about a growing respect, which seems more sustainable actually), a much better father, getting back into my activities - skiing, tennis, hockey, mtn biking, swimming, triathlons - getting into yoga weekly, my businesses are minting money at the moment. I am getting to a more sustainable lifestyle - no huge highs but no huge lows and the duration between the peeks of my sine wave are getting longer with shorter amplitude - again more sustainable.

AA provided a fellowship of individuals I could relate to and connect. I love my Wednesday meeting and may still attend, as the meetings ground me and make me feel better. So I am going to continue and if I feel like a fraud then I will stop. I respect, understand and see the logic with the 12 steps. This is not just an AA thing the logic has been tested over time embedded in many religions. Although I see the psychic change a function of much of the work not having to adhere exactly to the AA program. Doing the next right thing, believing in a higher power and amending wrongs seems like a pretty straight forward solution to live a better life.

Part of what I am going through and what I think is so important in any recovery plan is finding someone who has what you want. For me I thought it was my mentor that helped guide me into this program. I would be naive not to think much of my rash decision has to do with the NYE sober party and the veil coming off. I realized I don't want what he has, not any of it. This was like an earthquake shaking my foundation. Not sending me to drink but realizing I have been looking up to someone and then realizing I was chasing the wrong things...this is a common theme for me. I have done it at work too with my former CEO and ironically its what allowed me to rationalize my straying from my spiritual path and down this dark spiral - not his fault but I was again chasing the wrong things.

In terms of my sponsor he too is a bit lost and been in AA for 8 years and is a 8 months sober. I don't want what he has and this is a bad recipe in my opinion for a sponsor/sponsee relationship. I worry about hurting him and his sobriety and I know this should be easier but its not.

Much of my decision is perhaps more about my current setup. I like the one meeting (my home group), I don't like my sponsor setup and I feel like my HG is tainted by my sponsor's sponsor - cliquey. So perhaps the easier solution is to blame the program and move on - I may be doing this and this might not be fair to AA and the message. Yes, there are parts I don't like or appreciate but for the most part the pros outweigh the cons.

I am feeling pretty solid, remain open minded and quite self aware. My businesses are flourishing and I am going to be quite busy over the next 6 months and will then ease the throttle back this summer. I see a therapist once a week (pay out of pocket so no record) and can up this to twice if need be and can fit in my schedule. He specializes in addiction and there is a great connection - he is quite supportive of AA actually and helped me see the "all of nothing" part of this decision. I am going to try AVRT out - I have the books I am going to make a Big Plan and will keep you all posted on the experience/journey.

Now I have 3 rinks cleared off on my pond with several pickup games forming so I am of to play a little hockey today!
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:07 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Thumbs up

Awesome share, JD. You got it going on, lol.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:22 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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As others have said, as long as you are working a program that keeps you sober and on solid spiritual ground, more power to you.

What does make me a bit disheartened is your whole sponsor relationship. Honestly, from my point of view, it's messed up. And I can definitely see how it may have shaped your views in the negative. 8 months and hasn't completed the steps? Has to run to his own sponsor just so both of them can come at you? I have over 9 months sober, and I am nowhere near ready to walk anyone through the steps. It would be irresponsible for me to do so, even though I work my steps hard, attend 4-6 meetings a week, and actively participate in my home group commitments, from chairing and making coffee to speaking at rehabs and hospitals.

I second Joe's idea to at least try to finish the steps. But I would add that starting over with a new sponsor could greatly benefit you. Someone with time and knowledge. Someone who has taken many people through the steps before. I know you're worried about hurting your current sponsor's sobriety, but that is not your responsibility. Just like it is not the sponsor's responsibility to KEEP the sponsee sober.

You flirted with the idea of getting a new sponsor. Why prevented you from following through?

As an aside, I went to a sober NYE AA party too. We had a blast. Over 40 sober people crammed into a one bedroom apartment, with music blasting, tons of food and (non-alcoholic) drinks, a sober toast at midnight, and just amazing fellowship. No cults here. Just sober people living and enjoying normal, healthy things. No one talked about recovery. That's for the rooms.

I remember back when I was in rehab and how they emphasized to stick with the winners. At the time, I thought it meant just sticking with people who had a lot of time. But as I come up on a year sober, I've realized there are tons of crazy, cultish people with time. The real winners are those that LIVE the steps in their daily life. Those that have created a balance between AA and a normal life. My sponsor is one of those people. He doesn't read the big book to me or know page numbers of quotations. But he lives a normal and happy life by living the 12 steps.

You know what he always asks me when I'm faced with any kind of decision, reservation or grandiose idea? "What's your REAL motivation?"

As always, all the best to you, whatever you decide.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by digdug View Post
As others have said, as long as you are working a program that keeps you sober and on solid spiritual ground, more power to you.

What does make me a bit disheartened is your whole sponsor relationship. Honestly, from my point of view, it's messed up. And I can definitely see how it may have shaped your views in the negative. 8 months and hasn't completed the steps? Has to run to his own sponsor just so both of them can come at you? I have over 9 months sober, and I am nowhere near ready to walk anyone through the steps. It would be irresponsible for me to do so, even though I work my steps hard, attend 4-6 meetings a week, and actively participate in my home group commitments, from chairing and making coffee to speaking at rehabs and hospitals.

I second Joe's idea to at least try to finish the steps. But I would add that starting over with a new sponsor could greatly benefit you. Someone with time and knowledge. Someone who has taken many people through the steps before. I know you're worried about hurting your current sponsor's sobriety, but that is not your responsibility. Just like it is not the sponsor's responsibility to KEEP the sponsee sober.

You flirted with the idea of getting a new sponsor. Why prevented you from following through?

As an aside, I went to a sober NYE AA party too. We had a blast. Over 40 sober people crammed into a one bedroom apartment, with music blasting, tons of food and (non-alcoholic) drinks, a sober toast at midnight, and just amazing fellowship. No cults here. Just sober people living and enjoying normal, healthy things. No one talked about recovery. That's for the rooms.

I remember back when I was in rehab and how they emphasized to stick with the winners. At the time, I thought it meant just sticking with people who had a lot of time. But as I come up on a year sober, I've realized there are tons of crazy, cultish people with time. The real winners are those that LIVE the steps in their daily life. Those that have created a balance between AA and a normal life. My sponsor is one of those people. He doesn't read the big book to me or know page numbers of quotations. But he lives a normal and happy life by living the 12 steps.

You know what he always asks me when I'm faced with any kind of decision, reservation or grandiose idea? "What's your REAL motivation?"

As always, all the best to you, whatever you decide.

Thanks Dig Dug - I agree much is about the experience and finding someone who has what you want - this is key. Its a tremendous motivator and makes all the difference.

As for me, who knows why, perhaps its a test how things worked out and all... I don't feel close to a drink or risking my sobriety at all and I have a pretty good safety net in place (SR/therapy), so I am trying to change things up bc at the core I feel my program has worked but not what I need for the next phase of growth. So I feel like this is the right time to change a couple variables. If I find I am drifting too far out to sea, I can come back to AA.

The problem with meetings is they can be cliquey and this is creating an issue for me bc I like my Wed night meeting - its the best around that I have found. But I will not be welcomed bc I am questioning and changing my sponsor. I am sure this happens quite often and I am not sure how you deal with this in such a loosely organized program run by many sick people (some recovered of course).

Anyhow, I am becoming quite self aware pay my therapist to question my motives and ego - who knows I may find AVRT is a much better fit - then again, I may find it does not work for me - either way I hope my chronicles help someone else starting out.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jdooner View Post
Thanks Dig Dug - I agree much is about the experience and finding someone who has what you want - this is key. Its a tremendous motivator and makes all the difference.

As for me, who knows why, perhaps its a test how things worked out and all... I don't feel close to a drink or risking my sobriety at all and I have a pretty good safety net in place (SR/therapy), so I am trying to change things up bc at the core I feel my program has worked but not what I need for the next phase of growth. So I feel like this is the right time to change a couple variables. If I find I am drifting too far out to sea, I can come back to AA.

The problem with meetings is they can be cliquey and this is creating an issue for me bc I like my Wed night meeting - its the best around that I have found. But I will not be welcomed bc I am questioning and changing my sponsor. I am sure this happens quite often and I am not sure how you deal with this in such a loosely organized program run by many sick people (some recovered of course).

Anyhow, I am becoming quite self aware pay my therapist to question my motives and ego - who knows I may find AVRT is a much better fit - then again, I may find it does not work for me - either way I hope my chronicles help someone else starting out.
Wow, if you won't be welcomed by the group because your sponsor hasn't worked out maybe it's best that you find another meeting. Or focus on AVRT right now and see how it goes.

My BF's sponsor has been sober 10 years, but is new to the area and is going through a lot. His marriage is falling apart and he's having a really hard time. He has absolutely no sense of humor, and my BF needs to laugh once in a while. When my BF finally got into rehab he said, "are you sure you still want to go?" Not a good fit. My BF is very passive and doesn't like conflict so at least rehab gave him an excuse to bow out of the relationship. Don't get me wrong, his sponsor is a good person and a nice guy, but their personalities were not compatible and since he's got his own stuff to deal with helping someone else probably isn't the best idea right now.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best! It seems like you've grown a lot and have a good plan to stay on track.

Have a good weekend!
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:25 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
"There are many paths up the Mountain, but the view of the moon from the top is the same."

I can't entirely vouch for that - I can only comment on my view...

but my view looks pretty good, I'm sober, and I'm happy and my life has meaning. All boxes ticked.

Best wishes in finding your view of the moon JD

D
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:25 AM
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My sponsors always had a best-before date, and they were never my "friend" either. I was totally serious about those steps being completed so I could get on with living my life free from my alcoholism. Three months of intensive step work, rehab work, group therapy, and the end of my being a sponsee -- and I'm still sober living a great life. Sponsors are an example until they aren't, imo. Even when I sponsored others, I had time limits and it was rare for me to agree to give more time. I never sponsored anybody more then a year.

Friendships stand best when its mutual and equal, and earned. Sponsorship is an altogether different kind of thing, and I know many people think of their sponsor being their friend, and that's fine, just not how I did it. I worked my sponsors over like they asked for it, and I didn't want friendship clouding any issues for either of us.
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