NoJimmy

The Pastor at my church explains this, we go to church to get our tanks filled up, it's how we conduct our lives outside of church that really matters.
Yes, I'm aware there are many people who spend 2 hours every Sunday at church, and think that somehow makes them better than you or the next guy. I think these people are missing the boat entirely.
If my actions and behavior don't inspire others to ask me about sobriety or faith, I probably need to examine why. I'm new to both, but a (now sober) old drinking buddy is who inspired me to ask how his life is going so well now. He was one of the people who was put in my path who has been instrumental in changing my course. In time I will do that for someone else.
Don't let a few bad apples spoil what faith has to offer, plenty of screwballs in and out of the church who can turn people off of a good thing.

UnixBer

I wonder what "spiritual" means here but my opinion is that a spiritual person is more like someone who seeks the truth (and maybe more their own truth as well) instead of following religions or versions of what is what blindly. I think a religious person could easily be spiritual, and a religious person could easily be a serious mess due to religion.

There must be some fine line that determines somehow true spirituality. And a spiritual person in my opinion could be very evil if they wanted to. To be spiritual does not automatically mean "good" etc. or something like that.

soberhawk

I can hardly remember the old Chesterton quote even less translate it, “If you bind heart you liberate the hand”. The meaning being that conviction leads to action – I think that is true.

A lot of social work is done by people of strong convition, I think it is undoubtable that strong conviction leads to many good deeds.

Some with strong conviction can though come across as self-rightous and pushy.

All strenghts come with a dangour and every coin with two sides.

gaffo

I think that there is a deep connection between alcohol and spirituality--that people drink to deny or find their spiritual self. Not that it works very well. There's nothing like learning about humility the hard way!

tomsteve

not all good people are good.
not all bad people are bad.


everyone has shortcomings. and qualities.

lovesymphony

I could really go on about this one lol. Growing up in a hyper-religious family, I've seen up close people who really strived to do the right thing, and had their lives torn apart because they were letting religion lead them in every action, instead of using their own best sense. Also, without a doubt, some of the loudest, preachiest people don't even believe what they're preaching, and use religion as a front because of the real evil they're up to behind closed doors. It seems like religion/spirituality works best for people when it's used as guidance but a person still uses their head and doesn't get too fanatical or dogmatic

RobbyRobot

Being spiritual does not itself create a moral responsibility within oneself as morality is a learned thing, qualified and defined by personal real-life experience, and so when the "teacher" is lacking so is the student, imo. Many opportunities for spiritual awareness and enlightenment are often set aside by general society allowing for established religious teachings to be the de facto mainstay and gate-keepers of what it means to be "good" and/or "bad" in our culture notwithstanding (in spite of) our religious freedoms to choose to be religion free.

Of course, many choose to just stand on the shoulders of others to emphasis their own convictions, beliefs, and actions taken. Few persons can offer a persuasive in-their-own-words what "being spiritual good vs bad" means to themselves. More often then not, most simply parrot a collective of meanings of whatever seems most easily defensible for the conversation at hand. They have real difficulty sharing from a personal experience something they have never had for themselves, imo.

I myself don't believe being spiritual is in itself a superior experience to not being spiritual. Its a different experience, for sure, but for those who choose not to be spiritually-minded, they too can have and enjoy freedom and success in their own lives, no less then those who are spiritually minded. Spirituality is a choice taken and put into action, and this action creates a spiritual life. Without action, faith in such spirituality is dead. It is quite possible to fake action with pretty words alone to impress those who are naive enough, although to the mature spirit such base tricks are obvious of course. Buyer beware comes to mind.

Having said all that, I many years ago chose to be agnostically spiritually-minded in my sobriety. This choice creates responsibilities and remedies for what defines my alcoholism, and so life is good, all things considered, lol.

Others being spiritual or not is none of my business, although I have little patience for those who arrogantly sell and fake what they themselves do not posses in their own lives. Selling snake-oil is as old a practice as is prostitution, imo.

Live and let live.

Boleo

That makes absolutely no sense. Keep up the er... um... "good" work and you will be a Zen master some day.

I myself am a er... um... a "good" example of someone who is mostly bad but does good deeds (I am a caregiver to dementia senior citizens). It's not in my nature to do good but I have become so damn spiritual that I can now see the results of both my good & bad karma. I have to do good just to stay sober and survive.

If I ever get to heaven it will be by backing away from hell.
A

silentrun

Thanks for this post Square. I have been thinking a lot about this lately as I was raised old skool Christian. I truly do not believe in an elite class of people anymore. We all do the best we can. I was thinking about a scripture
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it"
How is it no one ever fessing up to being on the wide path? Just by sheer number most of us are on it and that seems like just how it is. At least I won't be asking for my money back.

Threshold

I gave my thoughts on this subject up as a lost cause.

At one time I thought spiritual meant being a good nice person...but many people who seem, talk, act, teach at being spiritually advanced aren't very "nice"...but tough love? too high up to have patience with the low? I have no clue. connected to something that I don't understand or know how to interpret?

My brother is not much fun to be around. He has put a great deal of time/effort into spiritual development. He had done much good in the world and in his community on a day to day practical level, as well as by being charitable with his wealth. His effort has born real fruit...towards many, but most of his family find him unpleasant and judgemental to be with...I have no clue what that means. Maybe his role is something the rest of us can't understand or don't fit into.

I have always felt like each person has a different contract with the Universe. I don't know what role they are to play, I only know mine, maybe they are doing a bang of job of fulfilling their contract with the Universe...which many would consider spirituality...as being connected with one's "purpose".

early on in NA I heard something that baffled me. A person can do whatever they want, as long as they are willing to pick up the tab...ie accept the consequences of their actions. I saw people, long recovered, so apparently having had their spiritual awakening doing things that I found morally questionable and personally reprehensible...but...they had has some level of spiritual experience that apparently I had not. Or were somewhere in their process that I was not privy to.

How can I know how spiritual development is supposed to manifest in anyone?

I don't believe I have an eternal soul, or that I've been here before, or whatever. Yet I've had a number of people who practice spiritual development tell me I am an old soul, objective and wise. I have no clue what that means. I know how things feel and appear from my side...that's it. I have my relationship and contract with the Universe, and that's where my life springs from.

My brother looks at me and tells me I have no spiritual connection to anything, that I'm a mess and that he'd like to lead me in his faith so I can find the connection that will save me, transform me.

Our religious and philosophical beliefs are so different, it's as if we live in different planes of reality. I believe we do. He believes there is only one plane of reality. There is no way to reconcile that.

I even tried that "do whatever you want as long as you are willing to pick up the tab" thing, and it didn't work out for me, because I was willing to pick up the physical tab...but not the spiritual one. I could clean up my mess on the surface, but inside I didn't know what to do with the "yuck" feeling that certain actions left behind.

So...does it mean that I am more spiritual because I can't deal with the "yuck"' factor? or LESS spiritual, because someone more spiritually developed would not feel the "yuck" factor in the first place because they "see" things on a larger plane than I do and realize that certain things don't matter the way a lower soul like me thinks they do?

hmmmm...

Maybe I'm living on the lower plane of details while they are living on a higher plane of total acceptance.

I feel like I can't know this. Maybe when I feel like I am being bullied or pressured or insulted...it is just some more spiritual person trying to show me the way for my own good. On the other hand, maybe it's some not so spiritual person trying to get me to validate their nonsense...

I doubt I'll ever know...so I am going to focus on my own contract with the Universe.

silentrun

I think you are right. My problem must be that I just lack a righteousness chip. No sense in fighting it. Just another door 3. I never understood why there HAD to be more anyway.

tomsteve

makes no sense...to you.
don't want anything to with yer zen master stuff.

maybe work the steps and ya wont be mostly bad.

wait...I forgot. sometimes slowly.

silentrun

OMG read your tagline

jdooner

I have never been religious. I am now becoming more spiritual. One thing I like about the AA program is you get to constantly challenge yourself with the steps and when your done you rework them. I think with religion just like many things, complacency breeds hypocrisy to an extent. I am better than this...and so I deserve this...

I had someone read me a passage in the bible of a that this post made me think of:

27. There was a judge who feared not God, nor yet regarded man.
28. There was a widow who oft implored the judge to right her wrongs and to avenge her foes.
29. At first the judge would hear her not, but after many days he said,
30. I fear not God, and I regard not man, yet, lest this widow wear me out by pleading every day I will avenge her on her foes.
31. When the disciples asked the meaning of this parable, the Lord replied, The wise can understand; the foolish have no need to know.
32. And then to teach a lesson unto certain of his followers who trusted in themselves and thought that they were holier than other men, he told this parable:
33. Two men went to the synagogue to pray; one was a Pharisee, the other was a publican.
34. The Pharisee stood forth and prayed thus with himself, O God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, who are extortioners, unjust, adulterers;
35. Not even like this publican. I fast two times a week, and I give tithes of all I get.
36. The publican came not a-near; he would not lift his eyes to heaven, but smote his breast and said,
37. O lord, be merciful to me; I am a sinner in thy sight; I am undone.
38. And now, you men, I say to you, The publican knew how to pray, and he was justified.
39. The Pharisee knew how to talk, but still he went away condemned.
40. Lo, every one who lauds himself shall be abased, and he who does not praise himself shall be exalted in the sight of God.

The message here as I interpret is that you can go through the motions like the Pharasee but if it is not true in your heart than its a waste of time. So if you are religious but don't practice what you preach its all for not. Seems to have carryover in recovery too.

tomsteve

good call.

soberhawk

I am sure you can learn it siletnrun if you really want.

I can give you some tips on being self-righteous – just sent me a PM if you want some.

Boleo

Keep coming back. Don't leave before the miracle happens.

RobbyRobot

Weird how perceptions work, eh?! I had thought Tom had experienced enough miracles in his life to be a sure believer already. From his shares it looks to me like he's all set, imo.

We all see thru the glass darkly, I suppose is true enough, all else being equal.

caboblanco

I think it's a misconception that spiritual means full of virtue, compassionate, or empathetic. These are separate qualities. some people have a sensativity for spiritual matters or a skill for meditation. They may have experienced

spiritual phenomenas. This doesn't mean they are a great and giving person in real life. Some people just think that going to church 3 times a week and praising the lord every 2 seconds makes them Gods best human. Spiritual life is mystical and illogical as Boleo has wrote. Some don't believe in it at all. But

spiritual somehow became synonym for humble and righteous. I think these are different things.

soberhawk

The goal of spiritual life is to become more true.

Zen Buddhists as other Buddhists do whatever they do to to escape the illusion and help the suffering or get to Nirvana and the Christian mystics do what they do to get closer to God.

At least it was originally a struggle for truth – probably still is.