Bubovski

When AA was established in the mid 30s it appears many alcoholics were jailed or restrained in mental asylums as cures were far and few between.
Unlike today where extreme drinking is often encouraged, in many subtle ways, and many types of drugs consumed, extreme drinking was looked upon with a good deal of disdain.
Over seventy years down the track AA remains the major source of treatment for treating alcoholism in a much more complex and substance abusive society.
In order to address 'alcoholism' it appears essential that a workable understanding of that definition is rendered.
In matters of law, in this country, a person driving at a B.A.C. of .05 is legally permitted,not withstanding other faults, to drive. At.06 technically that person would be drunk. Based on that logic a small woman at .05 is the same as a heavy man at .05. The maths her just don't work, along with, not only, this specific issue.
AA chooses the disease model of alcoholism while holding that 'normal people' or the non ill can enjoy alcohol until they become diseased, which may take some time to fully recognize, especially by the victim.On page 21 of the Big Book reference is made to the heavy drinking man who holds down a job, behaves reasonably, and because of his drinking may only die a few years before his time. Such a man is seen as non alcoholic, though he could become one.In my view the split here is rather fuzzy and distinctions between ill (alcoholic) and well (heavy drinker) tending to confuse.
I would suggest that fobbing off a large section of social drinking as acceptable, till severe alcoholism, as assessed, may render lesser (but still
potentially dangerous) drinking a pseudo justification it does not deserve.
Perhaps there is a need to look more closely to the arbitrary lines dividing non socially exploiting consumption and where that grey area ends, and true alcoholism begins.

DayTrader

Good luck with that. Stick around long enough and you'll see hardcore alkies about to die who aren't willing to look at that stuff. If you find it interesting, that's great. There's certainly a lot to think about when it comes to alcoholism but I've found "thinking" tends to keep me away from the actions and it's been my actions that made the difference - even when my thinking told me there would be no payoff in taking them.

Dee74

All I know Bub is I can't assess diagnose or interpret someone else's alcoholism.

Hasn't stopped me trying on occasions lol, but I know now the only real surety I have is about by own problem.

AA still works for lots of folks. For those it doesn't we're blessed with a lot of alternatives these days.

D

Bubovski

Actually you seem to back up what I am saying.
If people slowly become alcoholic because early stages are ignored then obviously that extremely bad stage will eventuate.
Action is very important, as is nipping things in the bud, where possible.

foolsgold66

It's unfortunate this doesn't manifest like a bad peanut allergy, eh? I think the only true way to find the line is to look and see it behind you.

sugarbear1

lots of drugs have been around for many, many years.....

Taking5

I agree with Sugarbear. There were plenty of amphetamines, methamphetamines (Hitler gave them to his troops), opiates, etc. available when AA first got started. And many times in our history they were almost totally unregulated.

Source on Hitler's meth: The Nazi Death Machine: Hitler's Drugged Soldiers - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Bubovski

I would suggest that the drug scenario is far more complex and intimidating now than in the 30s.
The prescription benzos were developed in the 50s and aren't all that legitimate in some ways. Even anti depressants have become questionable in terms of over use, and long withdrawal syndromes.
A changing social ethic may involve improved methodologies, which unfortunately may do more damage than good, in some instances, if the important underlying issue as to why people opt for intoxication is not addressed adequately.
The AA big book speaks of new spiritual disclosure (p146) and this may seem to contradict extreme clinging on too too hard to old directives as well.Can be a bit of a catch22.

jaynie04

There is evidence of wine in neolithic China in the 7th millenium BC, and what was the average life expectancy? Look at the average life expectancy in the last 100 years.

Alcohol has been around for a long time. But the variables surrounding it are constantly in flux. I imagine we could possibly layer degrees of alcoholism at this point in time. But I don't believe that this would be ever be a fixed value.

Bubovski

We really need to look at the quality of life, along with life expectancy.

foolsgold66

And when we look, and measure, what then? I understand your musing, just see nothing actionable in a free society.

Bubovski

Yeah, a sort of crazy unstructured idealism............but let's keep positive, all is not lost, only kinda obscured.....

Pete55

Bub, the key word I have underlined in my BB on page 21 in regards the the hard drinker is operative

I know I don't have whatever the operative is, be it physical or mental. It's just not there once I fall to the desire of a drink.
Once I take a drink, I surely do I.D. with what is described as the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde syndrome on the next paragraph. Insanely drunk.

Another reference is the italics paragraph on page 24.

foolsgold66

Quite all right, I appreciate the more exploratory threads, just find that sometimes others get offended by them, to the detriment of all...

Eddiebuckle

In my opinion there are not degrees of alcoholism, only degrees of delusion.

silentrun

I know my alcoholism is different than my brothers. The very first time he drank it was on for him. Mine progressed from don't- really -like- it- get- sick -before -get -drunk to just no satisfying it. I suspect SR would not be enough for him when the time comes.

jaynie04

I think as humans we like to put things in context. I know comparing can be dangerous but having points of reference have been helpful to me.

I like to look at the macro vs the micro of alcoholism. Man has been around for a tiny blip in the history of the world as we know it. My life is like a cross section of a butterfly wing on that chart. I happen to live in a period of time where the forces have collided and alcoholism is one particular that deal with, if I drink, I will ruin my life.

I consider all of us to be part of a fellowship in the sense that we all share a particular slice of time in history, that links us all. I look at history books now of diseases that wiped out entire populations just 100 years ago...diseases we can now inoculate against, diseases that some of us don't even remember because they were never part of our vocabulary. I imagine alcoholism will likely have a similar path. We can't change the actuality of it now, it's ours, we own it. But we have a lot more control over the outcome than people did who were dying in the streets of typhoid when they didn't even understand why they were getting sick.

So my macro take on this is that this is our cross section of history to own. Yeah, there are parts of it that I wish were different, but when I look back on the continuum of mankind it helps ground me. I am not attempting to negate anyone's individual struggle, just offer my thoughts. When I do look back on world history I realize how briefly all of us are on this earth, dynasties are a mere dash on that continuum. Realizing how briefly I am here helps alleviate the struggle to change the things I cannot change (wow, that literally just totally fit and I am not even in AA !)

BackToSquareOne

Almost everything of the mind is delusion. The mind creates new delusion to solve its old delusion. It's been said that to find the truth you get rid of everything that's false. That's most of it. Man has created truths to serve his own interests, whose truths are true truths and who gets to decide?

FeelingGreat

I don't sweat too much on the concept of alcoholism vs heavy drinking. I believe a lot of my middle aged friends drink more than is good for them, and that 'drunkenness' takes a huge toll on society. I also know many young people who binge drink, but ignore alcohol at other times.
If you want to measure harm done to the body, then there are the drinking guidelines.

Boleo

Alcoholism Stages