Thoughts on the phoney idea of moderate drinking
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Thoughts on the phoney idea of moderate drinking
Thoughts like these I guess aren’t new but let me know if you've any quick replies…
It’s sometimes said that alcoholics are people who drink far too much and for some psychological reason known only to them can’t be moderate like the nice and normal rest of the population in their upright society.
However the dictionary definition of an alcoholic or alcoholism simply concerns addiction to alcoholic drink- there’s no mention of units per week, which then makes a good proportion of the population alcoholics.
Exactly what’s going on when people decide to drink is surely very subtle. So it’s a strategy for relieving stress yet it's understood that it doesn’t actually work or at least not very well at all. The initial rush is soon paid back with plenty of interest, and personal problems are never really taken away no matter what the drunken state- yet people continue to drink. They even think that ‘alcoholics’ who don’t drink are those unfortunate people…
Moreover many many great minds have been alcoholics whose careers and lives were cut short as a result, for instance from my own areas of interest Van Gogh the painter, Mussorgsky the composer and Richard Burton the actor.
Exceptionally capable people drink because they see more clearly the tensions and indeed horrors around them in society and consequently experience more stress. Really seeing that alcohol is an illusion to avoid clearly isn’t easy for anyone, at least not from an intellectual viewpoint.
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
Does alcohol along with all other narcotics really only have negative value even in small amounts? Whatever benefits are sometimes claimed for it can be readily replaced by a more naturally active lifestyle.
Many countries and cultures take far dimmer view of alcohol than the West, which seems to use it because of its higher levels of social alienation. Furthermore alcohol manufacturers are typically owned by influential groups with an interest in the social status quo, encouraging people's drinking rather than critical thinking or becoming too self aware and acting to change society to benefit more of its members…
It’s sometimes said that alcoholics are people who drink far too much and for some psychological reason known only to them can’t be moderate like the nice and normal rest of the population in their upright society.
However the dictionary definition of an alcoholic or alcoholism simply concerns addiction to alcoholic drink- there’s no mention of units per week, which then makes a good proportion of the population alcoholics.
Exactly what’s going on when people decide to drink is surely very subtle. So it’s a strategy for relieving stress yet it's understood that it doesn’t actually work or at least not very well at all. The initial rush is soon paid back with plenty of interest, and personal problems are never really taken away no matter what the drunken state- yet people continue to drink. They even think that ‘alcoholics’ who don’t drink are those unfortunate people…
Moreover many many great minds have been alcoholics whose careers and lives were cut short as a result, for instance from my own areas of interest Van Gogh the painter, Mussorgsky the composer and Richard Burton the actor.
Exceptionally capable people drink because they see more clearly the tensions and indeed horrors around them in society and consequently experience more stress. Really seeing that alcohol is an illusion to avoid clearly isn’t easy for anyone, at least not from an intellectual viewpoint.
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
Does alcohol along with all other narcotics really only have negative value even in small amounts? Whatever benefits are sometimes claimed for it can be readily replaced by a more naturally active lifestyle.
Many countries and cultures take far dimmer view of alcohol than the West, which seems to use it because of its higher levels of social alienation. Furthermore alcohol manufacturers are typically owned by influential groups with an interest in the social status quo, encouraging people's drinking rather than critical thinking or becoming too self aware and acting to change society to benefit more of its members…
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I don't think the dictionary is really the best source for the true, nuanced definition of an alcoholic. People drink because they like it, and it's legal. Most people don't intellectualize why they drink.
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Originally Posted by SeanMc 
It’s sometimes said that alcoholics are people who drink far too much...
For many years I drank too much, drank too often and got into way too much trouble (from a normal person's perspective). Did that make me an alcoholic? Not in my eyes. You see I liked drinking too much. I enjoyed drinking too often. I even thought it was fun to get into trouble - it gave me something to brag about with my drinking buddies. I was just a drunk and I was having a good time in spite of it.
Then there came a day when I started drinking more than I intended to. I drank more often than I intended to. I caused more trouble than I intended to. I tried and tried to curb my drinking but failed repeatedly. That's when I had to admit I was an alcoholic. It was no fun anymore and I could not stop it.
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Originally Posted by SeanMc
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.…
I seem recall that most of the drunks I hung around with (myself included) were boorish, insensitive clods...with delusions of sophistication.
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Originally Posted by doggonecarl
What a load of crap! There are a lot of ways of rationalizing drinking, but saying that sensitive, insightful, or creative people need to drink more just tickles me.
I seem recall that most of the drunks I hung around with (myself included) were boorish, insensitive clods...with delusions of sophistication.
I seem recall that most of the drunks I hung around with (myself included) were boorish, insensitive clods...with delusions of sophistication.
+1
Must agree with you on that Carl... I am that same type of selfish, annoying, insensitive drunken idiot that no-one in their right mind would want to hang out with... so I hung out with other drunks like myself.
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Originally Posted by SeanMc
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
Umm... try telling that to my wife!
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Exceptionally capable people drink because they see more clearly the tensions and indeed horrors around them in society and consequently experience more stress. Really seeing that alcohol is an illusion to avoid clearly isn’t easy for anyone, at least not from an intellectual viewpoint.
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
SeanMc,
let me guess: you're the exceptionally capable, more clear-seeing, mature and sophisticated type. insightful and sensitive. more so than those regular drinkers. they're, in a way, too cloddish, brutish and stupid to drink more.....uh...huh????
what brings you here?
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
SeanMc,
let me guess: you're the exceptionally capable, more clear-seeing, mature and sophisticated type. insightful and sensitive. more so than those regular drinkers. they're, in a way, too cloddish, brutish and stupid to drink more.....uh...huh????
what brings you here?
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Feelings of grandious !!!! Typical alchy jump on board mate , my minds played alsorts of **** like this to tempt me back again and agson. See this THOUGHT for what it is. It's the addi give voice saying go on have a drink this is why ........
Just my opinion
Peace
Just my opinion
Peace
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I used to think (and often proclaim) I was 'too sensitive' for this world.
I saw the things others didn't seem to see, felt the things others didn't feel - thats why I drank, and thats why other people didn't drink like me - they didn't have to.
my rationalisations for getting glassy eyed, pee in my pants passed out every day got pretty damn grandiose.
I'm not sure where you're going with this Sean - I suspect maybe you're trying to get something out of the wasted years - but I don't think I like it...I certainly can't buy it.
D
I saw the things others didn't seem to see, felt the things others didn't feel - thats why I drank, and thats why other people didn't drink like me - they didn't have to.
my rationalisations for getting glassy eyed, pee in my pants passed out every day got pretty damn grandiose.
I'm not sure where you're going with this Sean - I suspect maybe you're trying to get something out of the wasted years - but I don't think I like it...I certainly can't buy it.
D
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Ernest Hemingway said " an intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools." I used this quote before to justify why I drank. Decided I needed to because otherwise people were boring. In reality I'm not that intelligent and Ernest Hemingway made up this statement to justify his own alcoholism.
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"Moreover many many great minds have been alcoholics whose careers and lives were cut short as a result, for instance from my own areas of interest Van Gogh the painter, Mussorgsky the composer and Richard Burton the actor."
Let's do not forget Rudy the pantswetter, Jerome the wifebeater and Candance the DUI vehicular manslaughterer. All taken before their time.
Did I type that outloud?
Volstead
Let's do not forget Rudy the pantswetter, Jerome the wifebeater and Candance the DUI vehicular manslaughterer. All taken before their time.
Did I type that outloud?
Volstead
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Originally Posted by Volstead
"Moreover many many great minds have been alcoholics whose careers and lives were cut short as a result, for instance from my own areas of interest Van Gogh the painter, Mussorgsky the composer and Richard Burton the actor."
Let's do not forget Rudy the pantswetter, Jerome the wifebeater and Candance the DUI vehicular manslaughterer. All taken before their time.
Did I type that outloud?
Volstead
Let's do not forget Rudy the pantswetter, Jerome the wifebeater and Candance the DUI vehicular manslaughterer. All taken before their time.
Did I type that outloud?
Volstead
June
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Exceptionally capable people drink because they see more clearly the tensions and indeed horrors around them in society and consequently experience more stress.
OMG that's what I said to myself "I cant believe the horrors of East Timor, packed a bong, Look at how shite the world is, packed a bong, I feel totally helpless because I want marriage equality and the homophobic rednecks have all the say, took a swig....It's bollocks...Just an excuse to do more of the same.
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.QUOTE]
So let me get this straight you'd argue that to be more sensitive, insightful, mature and sophisticated I'd have to get hammered? Either your not articulating yourself very well or I'm not understanding the point.
I agree with mirage....there is no way to intellectualise the nuances of addiction, it comes from so many different places/experiences for people. I guess that's why there's no one hard and fast technique to get over it.
OMG that's what I said to myself "I cant believe the horrors of East Timor, packed a bong, Look at how shite the world is, packed a bong, I feel totally helpless because I want marriage equality and the homophobic rednecks have all the say, took a swig....It's bollocks...Just an excuse to do more of the same.
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.QUOTE]
So let me get this straight you'd argue that to be more sensitive, insightful, mature and sophisticated I'd have to get hammered? Either your not articulating yourself very well or I'm not understanding the point.
I agree with mirage....there is no way to intellectualise the nuances of addiction, it comes from so many different places/experiences for people. I guess that's why there's no one hard and fast technique to get over it.
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What if you're right, Sean....now what? Do we get to drink now? Guzzle until our organs shut down? In my experience, drinking may have "dumbed me down" to associate with the thoughtless masses, but I became very sick, unemployed, alone in the world and nearly died. All those dummies were doing just fine. And as you can tell from the community here on SR, people drink for a variety of reasons, and come from a variety of backgrounds - you can't paint alcoholism with such a broad brush.
Think of it this way - why not use sobriety to enhance your intelligence and thoughtfulness? Think of the advantages you'll have. Why should we poison ourselves and stoop to conform to a droll society? Why not instead take things to a higher plane and live sober, healthy, and live a long time? Seems like a truly intelligent person could see that this is the only choice.
Think of it this way - why not use sobriety to enhance your intelligence and thoughtfulness? Think of the advantages you'll have. Why should we poison ourselves and stoop to conform to a droll society? Why not instead take things to a higher plane and live sober, healthy, and live a long time? Seems like a truly intelligent person could see that this is the only choice.
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All my justifications for drinking the way that I did seem insane to me now but by the time that I quit I had long known that "moderation" would just trigger a binge. I had to keep my normal drunk on.
I am a self employed professional journeyman artist and I came to see inebriation/hangovers as a self indulgent waste of time that actually interfered with my muse.
Two of my favorite authors, Hunter Thompson and Jack Kerouac, both saw alcohol turn on them in the end--and it really wasn't pretty. I remember reading "Big Sur" early in my drinking career and being alarmed by it. Then when I was a student in Berkeley HST gave a couple of "lectures" that were incomprehensible disappointments.
I am a self employed professional journeyman artist and I came to see inebriation/hangovers as a self indulgent waste of time that actually interfered with my muse.
Two of my favorite authors, Hunter Thompson and Jack Kerouac, both saw alcohol turn on them in the end--and it really wasn't pretty. I remember reading "Big Sur" early in my drinking career and being alarmed by it. Then when I was a student in Berkeley HST gave a couple of "lectures" that were incomprehensible disappointments.
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Hi folks, thanks for those thoughts even though most of you take different views...
I certainly didn't mean to suggest any kind of justification for drinking in the least, quite the opposite- I'm saying that I increasingly feel that there's no such thing as a good moderate level of alcohol intake at all, and agree with Gandhi's line for instance that in a properly developed society it wouldn't exist.
When the 'normal', good grief, socialized person chooses to stop drinking after a small amount it's not because they've been studying medical charts about the adverse affects over 23.75 units or whatever.
Obviously they stop because they no longer feel the same tension in them that they were drinking in response to- they've had enough of the fake counterbalance.
But it's not enough for those who can see a little more through the surrounding fractured presuppositions and identify with less of the nonsense that society tells them to think.
However rest assured when I was drinking I wasn't thinking through any of this- I drank because of how I felt inside not because of a long chain of reasoning to justify merely enjoying a drink.
As you've noted, the answer is to face the influences and issues head on with all your faculties intact. My point is just that there's some very subtle psychology going on when people decide to drink and seeing through it and getting out of the rabbit hole of crazy justifications involves quite a transformation of mind- intelligence and reasoning can worsen rather than moderate the situation.
Why would anyone take any psychotropic drug in any amount? It's clearly a self-deluding process but once the decision's been made the more rational thinking you are the harder it may be to climb out of the initial madness.
The great 1972 film The Wicker Man comes to mind- the policeman couldn't find his way through the deception around him so they did him in, and justified it...
Best wishes and regrets for not having enough time for individual replies.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest any kind of justification for drinking in the least, quite the opposite- I'm saying that I increasingly feel that there's no such thing as a good moderate level of alcohol intake at all, and agree with Gandhi's line for instance that in a properly developed society it wouldn't exist.
When the 'normal', good grief, socialized person chooses to stop drinking after a small amount it's not because they've been studying medical charts about the adverse affects over 23.75 units or whatever.
Obviously they stop because they no longer feel the same tension in them that they were drinking in response to- they've had enough of the fake counterbalance.
But it's not enough for those who can see a little more through the surrounding fractured presuppositions and identify with less of the nonsense that society tells them to think.
However rest assured when I was drinking I wasn't thinking through any of this- I drank because of how I felt inside not because of a long chain of reasoning to justify merely enjoying a drink.
As you've noted, the answer is to face the influences and issues head on with all your faculties intact. My point is just that there's some very subtle psychology going on when people decide to drink and seeing through it and getting out of the rabbit hole of crazy justifications involves quite a transformation of mind- intelligence and reasoning can worsen rather than moderate the situation.
Why would anyone take any psychotropic drug in any amount? It's clearly a self-deluding process but once the decision's been made the more rational thinking you are the harder it may be to climb out of the initial madness.
The great 1972 film The Wicker Man comes to mind- the policeman couldn't find his way through the deception around him so they did him in, and justified it...
Best wishes and regrets for not having enough time for individual replies.
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