Thoughts on the phoney idea of moderate drinking
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This is a great thread with many articulate, well formed opinions offered. A critical factor in my success with sobriety has involved breaking it down to the simplest components:
+ Alcohol is a very powerful, addictive drug
+ Alcohol causes numerous damaging effects, sometimes fatal, when ingested
+ I abused alcohol for decades and was addicted to it's mind altering effects
+ Any amount of alcohol is detrimental to my short term and long term well being
All of the above has been validated by how much better I've found my life to be without alcohol.
+ Alcohol is a very powerful, addictive drug
+ Alcohol causes numerous damaging effects, sometimes fatal, when ingested
+ I abused alcohol for decades and was addicted to it's mind altering effects
+ Any amount of alcohol is detrimental to my short term and long term well being
All of the above has been validated by how much better I've found my life to be without alcohol.
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Originally Posted by jaynie04 
I have more memories of nursing that albatross, so conscious of the level in that glass, so bloody exhausting.
Nursing those drinks was horrible. It felt like an IV drip.
Now I see grabbing that bottle was like getting slapped from my tormentor. It beat me every time but I didn't care. I craved the beating like am sure someone being tortured craves their capture at some point. They are mean and vicious but they give you just enough to make you feel that without them you will cease to exist. I reached through the bars over and over again for that little slice of attention.
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Originally Posted by mick3580
Isn't, by definition, a person who can moderate his or her drinking, a non alcoholic? It's pointless to discuss whether alcoholics can moderate their drinking, because people that can moderate their drinking aren't alcoholics.
a non-alcoholic 'moderates' nothing, i figure. they drink booze the way i eat icecream: once in a while, don't usually overdo it, don't have a 'relationship' with the stuff, the whole concept of 'moderating' doesn't enter into the equation or their minds because it's entirely irrelevant to how they drink.
the concept of 'moderation in action' to me implies an intentional limiting.
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Originally Posted by SeanMc
I'd argue in fact that most people drinking ‘moderately’ really only do so because they’re less sensitive and insightful people- they drink less because they have less developed maturity and sophistication not because they have more.
thanks for the thread
but
no way that the above is true
most people who drink moderately
have much more self control and common sense
than the average drunk
just for one example I look at my wife a school teacher
sure in her earlier days she drank and partied much
but
after maturing and knowing where she wanted her life to take her
she put most bad habits all down (on her own)
she is what we call a normie today with the one occasional glass of wine
she is a very sensitive Lady
and her insight is better than most
drunks either sober or drunk
should not think that they are all that unique
Mountainman
but
no way that the above is true
most people who drink moderately
have much more self control and common sense
than the average drunk
just for one example I look at my wife a school teacher
sure in her earlier days she drank and partied much
but
after maturing and knowing where she wanted her life to take her
she put most bad habits all down (on her own)
she is what we call a normie today with the one occasional glass of wine
she is a very sensitive Lady
and her insight is better than most
drunks either sober or drunk
should not think that they are all that unique
Mountainman
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Hi Mountain, sure, reading that sentence again it does sound a bit extreme.
I'd modify it to say only many people don't feel the desire to drink much because they sway in the breeze, swim with the tide, and get herded around- and not because they have a sophisticated perspective on the subtleties of narcotic addiction.
They take an addictive narcotic but only a little because they're okay with a little?- I'm really not sure how any fully self-aware person can be adjusted enough in present society to want to drink only a little.
Do feel free to disagree though.
I'd modify it to say only many people don't feel the desire to drink much because they sway in the breeze, swim with the tide, and get herded around- and not because they have a sophisticated perspective on the subtleties of narcotic addiction.
They take an addictive narcotic but only a little because they're okay with a little?- I'm really not sure how any fully self-aware person can be adjusted enough in present society to want to drink only a little.
Do feel free to disagree though.
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SeanMc,
seems i'm hearing this: a person can either be sensitive and sophisticated about the big bad world, but then they cannot be 'adjusted enough' unless they drink a lot, or if they don't drink much, a person is likely dull and sheep like, blunted, being swayed by breezes and tides.
the choice or any way of being a sensitive, intelligent, adjusted non-drinker isn't one that exists. is that what you're saying?
you're screwing yourself by setting it up this way. if you keep setting it up this way and want to be anything other than dull bovine, you have to keep drinking.
hm...neat trick, dividing it up this way
seems i'm hearing this: a person can either be sensitive and sophisticated about the big bad world, but then they cannot be 'adjusted enough' unless they drink a lot, or if they don't drink much, a person is likely dull and sheep like, blunted, being swayed by breezes and tides.
the choice or any way of being a sensitive, intelligent, adjusted non-drinker isn't one that exists. is that what you're saying?
you're screwing yourself by setting it up this way. if you keep setting it up this way and want to be anything other than dull bovine, you have to keep drinking.
hm...neat trick, dividing it up this way
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Well dissected fini. However to clarify I'm not at all submitting that thinker equals drinker- non-drinking alcoholics for instance can think and dissect just fine.
It's just that a thinking person today isn't going to be happy shepherded around to become nice and socialized- consciousness and society are too far apart these days, and getting further apart.
I'm repulsed at the change in the state of society over the last quarter century while the coming generation is encouraged be the most waver thin nobodies the world's ever seen.
Hence I'd say that a thinker will at least be abreast of the issues of narcotic addiction as a response to all this and have a more sophisticated perspective than Joe Adjusted.
It's just that a thinking person today isn't going to be happy shepherded around to become nice and socialized- consciousness and society are too far apart these days, and getting further apart.
I'm repulsed at the change in the state of society over the last quarter century while the coming generation is encouraged be the most waver thin nobodies the world's ever seen.
Hence I'd say that a thinker will at least be abreast of the issues of narcotic addiction as a response to all this and have a more sophisticated perspective than Joe Adjusted.
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Originally Posted by SeanMc
I'm really not sure how any fully self-aware person can be adjusted enough in present society to want to drink only a little.
Do feel free to disagree though.
I think that it's hard to understand for us recovered drunks
because
it makes no sense to us
I almost never drank that way
I almost always drank to feel the effect (and much of it)
but
as hard as it is
we need to realize not all drink like we did
not all let the bottle become their little god
not all woke up with the first thought of the day being
when will I get that first drink in me
for me it was (the sooner the better)
normies such as my wife do not wake up with that thought
Mountainman
because
it makes no sense to us
I almost never drank that way
I almost always drank to feel the effect (and much of it)
but
as hard as it is
we need to realize not all drink like we did
not all let the bottle become their little god
not all woke up with the first thought of the day being
when will I get that first drink in me
for me it was (the sooner the better)
normies such as my wife do not wake up with that thought
Mountainman
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Originally Posted by doggonecarl
What a load of crap! There are a lot of ways of rationalizing drinking, but saying that sensitive, insightful, or creative people need to drink more just tickles me.
I seem recall that most of the drunks I hung around with (myself included) were boorish, insensitive clods...with delusions of sophistication.
I seem recall that most of the drunks I hung around with (myself included) were boorish, insensitive clods...with delusions of sophistication.
I've already accepted the fact that my compositional skills will erode with sobriety. In one lousy month i've noticed that i can't mentally string together riffs which require multiple key and tempo changes at tempos faster than 200bpm. All things considered, music was never was about the money so i figure i can afford to lose ability as sobriety is strickly a business decision. I want to make serious money but need a perfectly clear mind to do it.
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Ah the romantic myth of drug assisted genius....
I was a professional musician for 20 years - the drunkest of the drunk guys I knew are no longer here to play anything, Carbonized.
We drank, hard, for years right?
Give it a few months - your chops will return - you may even surprise yourself at how good you play, sound, and react musically when you're sober
D
I was a professional musician for 20 years - the drunkest of the drunk guys I knew are no longer here to play anything, Carbonized.
We drank, hard, for years right?
Give it a few months - your chops will return - you may even surprise yourself at how good you play, sound, and react musically when you're sober
D
EndGame
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Originally Posted by Dee74
Ah the romantic myth of drug assisted genius....
I was a professional musician for 20 years - the drunkest of the drunk guys I knew are no longer here to play anything, Carbonized.
We drank, hard, for years right?
Give it a few months - your chops will return - you may even surprise yourself at how good you play, sound, and react musically when you're sober
D
I was a professional musician for 20 years - the drunkest of the drunk guys I knew are no longer here to play anything, Carbonized.
We drank, hard, for years right?
Give it a few months - your chops will return - you may even surprise yourself at how good you play, sound, and react musically when you're sober
D
As early as the 16th Century, Laudunam, a high-morphine concentrate and alcohol tincture, was used for a variety of ailments, but also as an addictive drug available to the wealthy classes. (It only came under government regulation in the early 20th Century, but by then, cocaine, heroin and cannabis were widely available.) This lead to the unrealistic belief that the great writers, artists, musicians and thinkers from the 16th Century on owed their exceptional abilities to drink or drugs. What's rarely stated in such misguided reports is that virtually everyone considered to be an exceptional artist was addicted to Laudunum or some other substance for centuries, so the playing field was leveled. In turn, the popular but flawed conclusion was that all artistic geniuses are crazy and/or benefit from substance dependence.
In the psychological literature on this subject that spans over a century, there is absolutely no evidence that this is so, beyond anecdotal reports from people who claim that they're less creative without the use of psychoactive substances.
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Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
Yeah, this has been historically overstated for centuries. Prior to the Industrial Revolution, the best and the brightest primarily came from the moneyed classes, both here and elsewhere in the world. People with genuine talent rarely made it to public consciousness without also having a wealthy benefactor.
As early as the 16th Century, Laudunam, a high-morphine concentrate and alcohol tincture, was used for a variety of ailments, but also as an addictive drug available to the wealthy classes. (It only came under government regulation in the early 20th Century, but by then, cocaine, heroin and cannabis were widely available.) This lead to the unrealistic belief that the great writers, artists, musicians and thinkers from the 16th Century on owed their exceptional abilities to drink or drugs. What's rarely stated in such misguided reports is that virtually everyone considered to be an exceptional artist was addicted to Laudunum or some other substance for centuries, so the playing field was leveled. In turn, the popular but flawed conclusion was that all artistic geniuses are crazy and/or benefit from substance dependence.
In the psychological literature on this subject that spans over a century, there is absolutely no evidence that this is so, beyond anecdotal reports from people who claim that they're less creative without the use of psychoactive substances.
As early as the 16th Century, Laudunam, a high-morphine concentrate and alcohol tincture, was used for a variety of ailments, but also as an addictive drug available to the wealthy classes. (It only came under government regulation in the early 20th Century, but by then, cocaine, heroin and cannabis were widely available.) This lead to the unrealistic belief that the great writers, artists, musicians and thinkers from the 16th Century on owed their exceptional abilities to drink or drugs. What's rarely stated in such misguided reports is that virtually everyone considered to be an exceptional artist was addicted to Laudunum or some other substance for centuries, so the playing field was leveled. In turn, the popular but flawed conclusion was that all artistic geniuses are crazy and/or benefit from substance dependence.
In the psychological literature on this subject that spans over a century, there is absolutely no evidence that this is so, beyond anecdotal reports from people who claim that they're less creative without the use of psychoactive substances.
Google RKL Blocked Out. These guys were (in)famous for never playing a gig sober. Either they were high as hell or drunk. One gig review years ago noted their ability to play virtually anyone under the table and do it while falling over drunk. Eventually, three band members died from their addictions. Anyways, i know i was a better performer after a 40 oz of malt liquor as i have severe situational social anxiety and the alcohol kept the panic attacks at bay long enough to finish the set and be able to talk to the crowd with confidence afterwards.
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I've worked as a musician and a visual artist for over thirty years.
All the pros that were drinkers and druggies fell by the wayside.
If your talent decreases when you stop drinking - that means you never had any real talent to begin with.
Anyone that tells you that real musicians had to be drunk or high to play doesn't know what real musicians are all about. And anyone that tells you they were better musicians when they were drunk doesn't have a clue.
As a professional artist I find this lie particularly insulting - as should any artist with any real talent.
My talent doesn't come out of a bottle and it isn't in some drug.
All the pros that were drinkers and druggies fell by the wayside.
If your talent decreases when you stop drinking - that means you never had any real talent to begin with.
Anyone that tells you that real musicians had to be drunk or high to play doesn't know what real musicians are all about. And anyone that tells you they were better musicians when they were drunk doesn't have a clue.
As a professional artist I find this lie particularly insulting - as should any artist with any real talent.
My talent doesn't come out of a bottle and it isn't in some drug.
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Originally Posted by ClearLight
My talent doesn't come out of a bottle and it isn't in some drug.
that's so true
years back when I played in a band oh yes we were stoned most the time
we were ok but many bands are
takes more than that to make it
the union professional musicians I knew mostly played sober
or darn close to it
maybe having a drink or two - three at the most ???
those guys know that they had better not get drunk
and blow it while on stage
thus they were true professionals
sure if one hits the big time one can go ahead and blow their mind on stage
as we have seen over the years with many successful bands
many fall right off the stage
many of these have been stitched up, repeated rehab, etc etc etc
and as we know many with much talent died from overdose
I thought I played better while drunk
I was fooling myself yet once again
when I was a young man I saw Jimi Hendrix play in San Diego
he was wasted
he broke two strings and stated to the crowd
that if he wasn't so buzzed he would replace the strings
which he didn't replace
we got robbed that night due to his addiction
Mountainman
years back when I played in a band oh yes we were stoned most the time
we were ok but many bands are
takes more than that to make it
the union professional musicians I knew mostly played sober
or darn close to it
maybe having a drink or two - three at the most ???
those guys know that they had better not get drunk
and blow it while on stage
thus they were true professionals
sure if one hits the big time one can go ahead and blow their mind on stage
as we have seen over the years with many successful bands
many fall right off the stage
many of these have been stitched up, repeated rehab, etc etc etc
and as we know many with much talent died from overdose
I thought I played better while drunk
I was fooling myself yet once again
when I was a young man I saw Jimi Hendrix play in San Diego
he was wasted
he broke two strings and stated to the crowd
that if he wasn't so buzzed he would replace the strings
which he didn't replace
we got robbed that night due to his addiction
Mountainman
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Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 3,748
After 50 years of varied drinking I have no desire to return to light or moderate, and initially extreme drinking, as it impinged upon my personality.
Post de tox 1994, I decided to become a 'moderate drinker' and entered a life of insane self control and misery in an endeavour to accomplish this. No more blackouts, convulsions, spewing up, spinning room, horrendous hangovers, crazy behaviour and risk of latter years....... simply a dull mediocrity and poorness, relieved very temporarily by four or five evening wines, then bed. Hardly living by any stretch of the imagination.
As for any perceived creativity via the bottle or drugs I see the down side as manifestly negating such and something I can certainly do without. I am through with the moderate drinker/alcoholic debate and now firmly engaged in ensuring sobriety in it's totality, from now to the grave.....
Post de tox 1994, I decided to become a 'moderate drinker' and entered a life of insane self control and misery in an endeavour to accomplish this. No more blackouts, convulsions, spewing up, spinning room, horrendous hangovers, crazy behaviour and risk of latter years....... simply a dull mediocrity and poorness, relieved very temporarily by four or five evening wines, then bed. Hardly living by any stretch of the imagination.
As for any perceived creativity via the bottle or drugs I see the down side as manifestly negating such and something I can certainly do without. I am through with the moderate drinker/alcoholic debate and now firmly engaged in ensuring sobriety in it's totality, from now to the grave.....
EndGame
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Originally Posted by Carbonized
I wouldn't go so far as saying some reports as "anecdotal". Bobby Stinson for example, was well known not to be able to play a lead worth a damn unless he had a few beers in him. That it killed him in the end is another thing.
Google RKL Blocked Out. These guys were (in)famous for never playing a gig sober. Either they were high as hell or drunk. One gig review years ago noted their ability to play virtually anyone under the table and do it while falling over drunk. Eventually, three band members died from their addictions. Anyways, i know i was a better performer after a 40 oz of malt liquor as i have severe situational social anxiety and the alcohol kept the panic attacks at bay long enough to finish the set and be able to talk to the crowd with confidence afterwards.
Google RKL Blocked Out. These guys were (in)famous for never playing a gig sober. Either they were high as hell or drunk. One gig review years ago noted their ability to play virtually anyone under the table and do it while falling over drunk. Eventually, three band members died from their addictions. Anyways, i know i was a better performer after a 40 oz of malt liquor as i have severe situational social anxiety and the alcohol kept the panic attacks at bay long enough to finish the set and be able to talk to the crowd with confidence afterwards.
Many major league baseball players have increased their production by using PEDs, but I doubt they ever would have made it to the major leagues had they not had the requisite talent in the first place.
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ClearLight,
Good you think that way but not everyone can. In a studio or rehearsal i never had a problem. Live? Twice went on dead sober and could only think about how fast i could get offstage. Once off mumbled excuses to the rest of band and went straight home. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt i can't perform in front of people without some kind of assistance. Stage fright is more common than people think.
Good you think that way but not everyone can. In a studio or rehearsal i never had a problem. Live? Twice went on dead sober and could only think about how fast i could get offstage. Once off mumbled excuses to the rest of band and went straight home. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt i can't perform in front of people without some kind of assistance. Stage fright is more common than people think.
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I guess nothing anyone can say here will convince you Carbionized.
I enjoyed playing sober - sure it took some adjustment but I had faith in my talent.
I would get very nervous before a gig but everything falls into place once that first note hits - it's a great experience to be jamming and improvising with others, relating to the audience, and actually 'being there' as well...I hope one day you'll try it again.
D
I enjoyed playing sober - sure it took some adjustment but I had faith in my talent.
I would get very nervous before a gig but everything falls into place once that first note hits - it's a great experience to be jamming and improvising with others, relating to the audience, and actually 'being there' as well...I hope one day you'll try it again.
D
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Originally Posted by Dee74
I guess nothing anyone can say here will convince you Carbionized.
I enjoyed playing sober - sure it took some adjustment but I had faith in my talent.
I would get very nervous before a gig but everything falls into place once that first note hits - it's a great experience to be jamming and improvising with others, relating to the audience, and actually 'being there' as well...I hope one day you'll try it again.
D
I enjoyed playing sober - sure it took some adjustment but I had faith in my talent.
I would get very nervous before a gig but everything falls into place once that first note hits - it's a great experience to be jamming and improvising with others, relating to the audience, and actually 'being there' as well...I hope one day you'll try it again.
D
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